If he didnt give a damn hed still be an independent

@MarkiusMahamius He doesn't give a damn about playing the the establishment's rules. He is smart enough to realize that the only way to get in the White House is to take control of one of the major parties like Trump did. And that is what he will do.

The claim to know better than us, is what they say. Just like the EC. They are running precisely because they fear anyone who might represent the people. And its a valid fear- people suck. Here's to hoping they suck at a lower rate than 50%

This identity politics nonsense is exactly what's wrong with the democratic party. Don't judge people by race, gender, age etc. Judge them on policy, integrity, consistency, and leadership ability.

@RoboGraham are you equating democracy at the individual/voter level, with identity politics? Im not asking in a snarky way, im curious. There is an inherent narcissim in individuality.

@RoboGraham Blah, blah, blah.
Rich, old, white men are exactly what is WRONG with everything, at
EVERY level.
It's not "identity politics". It's the truth.
Every single aspect of humanity has been ruined by rich, old, white men.
And before white men controlled everything, it was just men in general.

@MarkiusMahamius I'm not sure that I understand your question. I'm just saying that it's best to judge candidates by their accomplishments, not by things that are out of their control like being old, male, and white.

@RoboGraham that clarifies things. You were responding more to @kkgator rather than my comments about "reprezentative democracy" vs "federalism".

I do think its important to recognize established power structures like "old rich white guys", its not a made up thing.

@KKGator Allowing the identity of candidates to determine who you plan to vote for is exactly what identity politics is and that is what you are doing.

There have been some pretty terrible old, white men. I see where you are coming from and why you would think the way you do but keep in mind that Einstein was an old white man. Steven Hawking, Richard Dawkins, Noam Chomsky... There are lots of examples of old, white men doing very good things as well.

To be so negative about people based on characteristics that are out of their control is ignorant.

@RoboGraham There are always exceptions. You can call me "ignorant" if you please, it doesn't bother me.
I base my positions on history. Overall, it's been rich, old, white men, screwing over everyone to achieve their wealth and power, and to maintain it.
Those are the facts. Pointing them out doesn't make me ignorant, and it's not remotely identity politics.

@KKGator Old white men have been causing a lot of misery around the world for a very long time, there is no doubt. But you said it yourself, there are exceptions. If you look at at Bernie Sanders' record, you will see that he is most definitely an exception. The man stood up in the civil rights movement and he has been fighting for the working class and the marginalized ever since.

Also, pointing out that old white men have done bad things is one thing. No problem there. But you are judging people on race, gender, and age. That is problematic and it is the quintessential example of identity politics. You are allowing your anger to put you in denial.

@RoboGraham Bernie's a rich, old, white guy now, too. I know what he's done. I appreciate his efforts.
I think we'd all be better off if he stayed in the Senate.

And "identity politics" is just another stupid marketing gimmick. It's just as
much of a false flag as any other silly slogan that's been made up in politics.

Look, if Bernie ends up being the one to run against 45, I'll vote for him.
I intend to vote for whomever ends up being the one to run against 45.
I will always vote for whomever I decide is the "lesser evil".
Been voting that way since 1979.

I'm not a democrat, so I don't get to vote in their primary. At this point, I'm not supporting anyone.

@KKGator Well I'm glad you are aware of his efforts fighting for good and that you are keeping an open mind. I'm just curious, other than his old white manishness, what have you got against him?

@RoboGraham He's too old for the job, for one thing. I have no faith that his health will hold out.
It's not being "agist" either. It's recognizing the truth.
He's already had one heart attack. He's 78 freakin' years old.
That's just one reason. I have others, and I feel no inclination to discuss
this any further.

@KKGator That's true. taking old age into consideration is reasonable when choosing a leader. That's one really good reason to cast aside Joe Biden. His mental state is clearly in decline. Bernie is sharp as a tack though.

@RoboGraham I have no use for Biden, either.

@KKGator So who's your pick? If you were able to vote for one, who would it be?

@RoboGraham I don't have a "pick" yet.
I already said I will support whomever ends up running against 45.
Scroll up.

@RoboGraham Pointless question. I'm not a democrat, my state doesn't allow primary voting unless one is a registered member of the party holding the primary.
I'm not going to choose anyone until it's time to vote in the general.
As of right now, I do not favor anyone.

@ToolGuy Whatever. It's still the truth.
You can extrapolate all you please. You can misconstrue.
You can ignore context. You can cherry-pick which parts of what
I said you'll choose to take exception with (you know, just like the believers
and their "holy" books).

I really do not give a fuck.
I stand by my positions. They're all rooted in fact.
Kill the patriarchy. Kill it dead.

@ToolGuy I'm not "confusing" anything. Kindly stop telling me what I mean.
JFC

@ToolGuy I'll post whatever I goddamned please. You don't HAVE to reply.

Btw, you just proved my point. Thanks for that.

@KKGator Which point did he prove? That you have a negative bias toward old white men?

@ToolGuy Oh snap, she said you are behaving like the believers do. That's about the worst insult you can get on here. -_-

@MarkiusMahamius Oh sure the rich white guy power structure certainly does exist. Doesn't make them all bad though.

@RoboGraham not all people... you can itemize that forever.

45 is going to make them drag him out of the WH.
Kicking and screaming.

I think Pence has a better chance. I think two terms of DT is unlikely, and Pence won't run unless DT is out of the picture (health or impeachment), but then hed have a pretty good chance.

@MarkiusMahamius That's a truly scary thought.

@RoboGraham
The terrifying variable with Pence, at least for me, is his Christian belief, followed by the fact that he knows how Washington works.

@bigpawbullets He would like to transform the republic into a theocracy and he isn't buffoon like Trump. He could do some real damage.

What do you think is motivating him to run?

@RoboGraham ego

@1of5 Ego and the fear that a left wing populist might win and then reverse this upside down system of trickle down economics that made it possible for him to become so obscenely wealthy in the first place.

@RoboGraham pretty much all of the dem candidates are pushing for higher taxes on the wealthy.

Take off the Bernie blinders. Theres lots and lots of politics that arent driven by Bernie and Bernie alone. Bloomberg is as Republican lite as you can get and sees an opportunity to control more people/things the way he wants.

@1of5 The best chance the dems have of winning is to nominate a candidate who will actually make changes which will have positive effects on their lives. That's what will get people motivated to vote, not more status quo.

Many dems want to raise taxes on the wealthy but what will they do with it? Feed it to the military industrial complex? Give out more corporate welfare? We need someone who will finally solve the healthcare issue.

@RoboGraham thats a rather simplistic view, and i think its wrong and doesnt take into account excately how razor thin trumps electorial victory actually was - it was less than 100,000 votes, while losing the pop vote by over 3 million. If you want to boil it down to a simple "this is the only thing that will beat Trump" go with "don't be corrupt" - it worked after Nixon.

Bernie needs to form a 3rd party. You can put anyone you want into office and if they don't have support in Congress you've just wasted 4 years of everyone's lives. Bernie being president isn't going to change much, but Bernie founding and guiding a 3rd party could really change things for a century or more. He shouldn't have gotten any of the new age reps endorsements - they should be members of his party and he should be promoting them along with a few dozen more to get the actual votes into Congress. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE PERMINANT, LONG LASTING CHANGE.

Bernie has made a point of not being a member of any established party - then when he saw it was useful, tried to hijack a parties primary - look how well that's worked out for the Republican party if one of the thoughts you had about that was "good" - and fractured the party (but fuck me why'd the dems get so wedded to the back to back minority candidate crap?) in the general.

@1of5 Yeah Trump is weak politically and maybe he can be beaten by some of the others. I'm saying that the BEST chance we have of beating him is with a populist. We can't be reckless about this, everyone thought Clinton would win 100% fo sho but that didn't happen. And the dems aren't helping the situation with this impeachment distraction.

I couldn't disagree with you more about the 3rd party idea. The 2 party system is too firmly entrenched. If he did manage to get some people from his own party elected, big deal, they would be a tiny ignorable minority. By becoming the leader of the democratic party, he and his ideas become mainstream and if he were president, they wouldn't be able to ignore him anymore. Even if he couldn't get Congress to cooperate, there is a lot of power the president wields and much could be done. But I believe he will get Congress to get on board with his agenda because his policies are wildly popular and when the president is pushing for policies that the people actually want, Congress will get in line.

That's spot on. Bernie people are like vegans, improving the world and vocal about it.

@ToolGuy I think Bloomberg is going to waste more money on this fools errand than he would lose under a Bernie tax structure.

@RoboGraham But to these kinds of people, they would rather spend that money fighting reform, even if in vain, than give it away to their perceived inferiors thru government taxation or confiscation. It's the principle of the thing, in their eyes...

@RoboGraham money as a number, means nothing to the very wealthy. it's an ideal, like having better sex. Everyone wants as much great sex as they can get, but the don't actually have a measurement... its just relative to how much youve had already. You always want more. If youd had great sex 10 times or 20 times, you still want more. If you only had it 8 times, youd want more. The number itself is meaningless.

@MarkiusMahamius That's a good point. And when you already have a very large sum of money, it's easy to use that money to get more money even though you aren't actually producing any goods or services or adding to the common good. And when your wealth gets really enormous, you can use it to buy influence and rig the game in your favor which will make you even wealthier and then you can use that wealth to get more wealth and buy more influence... Which is why it makes sense to tax the obscenely wealthy elites and use the money to fund social programs that improve the society as a whole.