As often as I have brought this up with believers I have never had a lucid response.
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.In Deuteronomy we are told that if a woman gets raped in the mountains, she is innocent, because her cries for help will not be heard. Then Luke writes that Mary went across the mountains to visit her cousin Elizabeth. Luke and the early church knew that Jesus was a good and wise man, but illegitimate, that’s why there is a skip in the genealogy. I have two interesting and compassionate books telling this story and how worried the Romans were that Jesus preached peace and render unto Caesar and had a huge following. Only later, long after Jesus’ death did the founding fathers realize that that they had a perfect ploy to manipulate the masses.
Aurich
Level 1
Dec 14, 2019
0
What are the sources for Roman concern about Jesus during the Augustan period particularly?
They were concerned about the Messianic preachers and their soteriological message, but I would like to know of a source that specifically cites a character referred to as Jesus.
@Gwendolyn2018 Exactly. Neither Josephus nor Tacitus are convincing on the point.
There WAS no "early church." Can you produce one shred of evidence attesting to the existence of "Christians" in the early period when and immediately after "Jesus Christ" supposedly lived? No, you can't, because there is none.
SCal:
There is no reputable historic evidence the character known as Jesus ever existed. Bible, Torah, dead sea scrolls have no historical value.
I wouldn't expect their historians to record the execution of an itinerant street preacher and rabble-rouser, either. It's clear that the historical person Yeshua ben Yosef, if he existed, had little of the importance given him by the books of the NT. He would never have been judged by Pilate in person, would never have been the victim of a conspiracy of the Jewish rabbis, and it is very doubtful that he preached new doctrines to attentive crowds.
What he might have done (what doubtless happened, in fact) is attract a core of disciples who embellished his deeds over decades, then added the template of the Greek mystery hero who dies and is born again to make him an immortal Messiah (thus one-upping all the other Messiahs).
That's IF he existed. In that backwater of the Roman Empire, as I said, I don't find it that surprising that he escaped the notice of history until much later, when he had become the central figure of a religion.
Paul4747
Level 8
Dec 14, 2019
0
You say what "doubtless" happened...
I say there is a LOT of doubt he existed at all, itinerant street preacher or not. Also in doubt any such person had any disciples because there is considerable "doubt" about that as well.
Far more likely is the whole story was made out of whole cloth decades after the events in question supposedly happened.
Far more plausible was there WERE no "Christians," including "disciples,' in that period in question, because there was no such man to begin with.
then give it up greeks and romans didn't believe they had multiple gods
people were killing each other more than now and one leader thought of a way to control those urges and invented "the one true god" with a set of rules that was a good way to live
whiskywoman
Level 8
Dec 14, 2019
0
I do not find that amazing, considering the Roman Catholics do not follow what Jesus teaches. The Roman empire was imploding when a dying Emperor changed his name to Constantine and converted. I believe the purpose was to intimidate people, that God was always watching them, what they do since the Roman military was dwindling due to the cost of upkeep. Kept the empire viable for an additional hundred years. After the downfall of Rome and their empire, this is when we find all the writing's including Jesus in Greek and Latin. But I see you did not include the Dead Sea scrolls that mention Jesus that are from the time he was a prophet and reform rabbi (Essene Jew) trying to clean up the corruption the Jews were perpetrating, the Pharisees and Sadducees.
ExculpatoryLover
Level 5
Dec 13, 2019
0
Note, I am not a believer, be it a believer in God or a believer in no God. I am an agnostic, so show me the proof one way or the other as in the Scientific Method, absence of proof is not proof of absence.
Please find another website, you troll!
@AnneWimsey - So name calling is allowed on this website? I understand how cognitive dissonance works, the facts I cited disturb those who live in a conjured fantasy world.
Here I thought this was Agnostic Dot Com and not Atheist Dot Com where I would never participate.
But everyone with a fully functioning mind can see why you never get such a response. You launch ugly attacks against civil responses you reject out of hand. Living in an echo chamber may be comforting, but does not advance a person towards Enlightenment. Oy Veh
Best bit about the Dead Sea Scrolls is the Copper Scroll treasure map! Don’t think they’ve found the loot yet!
@motrubl4u - Gee, I did not know you were the arbiter of what constitutes an agnostic. Like it or not, I am because I reject beliefs like Atheism and Christianity. Show me some proof.
Go ahead and make snide remarks. Such only diminishes the speaker, not the victim of your actions.
Diminishes the validity of this website too. Hate is a disease that shortens your life.
@ExculpatoryLover "absence of proof is not proof of absence"
Maybe so but until there's real evidence to sipport the reality of a thing, the lack of evidence suggests that disbelief is the most reasonable stance to take. If good, solid evidence is brought forth then the issue can be re-evaluated at that time.
@Sgt_Spanky ~ Which is still a belief. It raises to fact when you produce the proof of no existence. Like I said, I am an agnostic, so I can not subscribe to your belief.
So shameful how believers behave. I have called no person names. Look within yourselves, name callers and liking the perpetrators. Those who name call and like name calling are no different from the Christians who oppressed non-believers. Oy Veh
@ExculpatoryLover a "troll" has a specific definition, one who is here to push an agenda & stir up trouble. If the shoe fits, you wear it! And if you would enjoy some Actual name-calling, I worked in a shipyard for 13 years......
This website accepts all points of view, why are you so intolerant? This is not YOUR website, you do not own it and do not determine how others comment. I haven't attacked anyone, you have and now you want to expand upon that? Go ahead and show your unladylike true self, I can more than take it. I served in the Armed Forces and two wars, was wounded and am ready for your best shot.
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