It's fun and frustrating to meet real life walking, talking Dunning–Kruger zealots, isn't it?

Americans do agree with him, millions of us.

@RoboGraham millions of Americans are disenfranchised and don't participate in politics/government, but i wouldnt try to conjecture that they agree with you or the OP or whatever blog or opinion peice or video. Being one of the masses does not make your beliefs any more representative rhan mine.

@MarkiusMahamius

I said that millions of Americans agree with us. You said that Americans don't agree with us. You made it a blanket statement as if all of them don't agree. Who is more unreasonable here?

@RoboGraham olk, define "millions of americans" and "us"

@MarkiusMahamius

Well, I could define "us" as people who support Bernie. I know that he reached a million individual donors back somewhere around November so I'd assume it's much more now. And then there's the people who favor him but didn't donate so that's several million at least.

If we are talking about all the people who don't support Biden's return to normal policy, which is what the post is about, we can add a big chunk of the Trump voters in as well. Then there's the people who don't support it and don't bother to vote at all and who knows how many of them there are. So I'd say we are talking at least tens of millions of Americans and maybe over a hundred million.

You can slice it any way you want, but I still think claiming millions have any shared views beyond disgust, is pushing it. BTW I never used terms like "all" of "always" so I don't know where you got that, or how you moved from the topic at hand, to the general sentiments of people who don't like Biden. Whatever, it doesnt matter.

I think youre missing my point. I was responding to the OP not the article he read. My interest in the post from the OP was also not if the angry and disenfranchised and outsiders think the opinion piece from a British news source, that the OP cited, were accurate. I really don't give a #%$ what the popular consensus of xyz group is. the point here, is it is an opinion piece and some will agree and some wont.

I was examining why the OP believes they way he does, with know real knowledge of the topic at hand. It really doesnt matter to me, how many other people fall into the same thought traps that he does. If anything, the fact that there are so many of them, is confirmation of the problem, not confirmation that a common problem should be normalized and accepted.

@MarkiusMahamius

What is the thought trap?

The youth will vote if a candidate makes it worth their while. Obama has been the only democrat to win this century. how did he do that, he motivated the youth to vote for him in large numbers. Why did they do that, because Obama ran a hope and change progressive campaign.

If democrats want to win, they ought to have a look at recent history and try to learn from it rather than getting upset with people who choose not to participate because there aren't incentives to do so.

The New Deal has already been dismantled and the corporate Dems helped the Repubs in doing it.

@RoboGraham This century??? It's 2020. Obama won because of the BLACK vote.
No, it's fine, as I said.
If people want to stick with your attitude, and ToolGuy's, and TomMcGiverin's, and those like you who insist it's the Democrats' fault almost as much as the Pubs, that there's a rough moral equivalency between the two groups, that there IS no "vast right-wing conspiracy" poisoning the minds' of ordinary, working-class people, convincing them to vote against their own best interests, then fine.
If some people want to pretend the problem is Democratic candidates not accommodating spoiled, clueless non-voters enough, not progressive enough to rouse them from their principled inertness, rather than face the fact ultra-rich corporate oligarchs are pulling the strings and manipulating people like you, then fine.
If they won't listen to people like me and wake up to who their REAL enemies are, the truth will be forced on them by events as this downward spiral continues.
The rest of the world is not standing still, and eventually it'll pass us by if we continue to live in your fatalistic fantasy land.
For if what YOU all are saying was true--which it most certainly is not--we are doomed and there's no hope.
If that"s what you want us to believe, you're either trolls sowing seeds of discontent and division, or you're yourselves so deeply cynical about human nature your idea of a solution is some kind of anarchist, nihilistic chaos from which will spring some kind of 'rebirth.'

If, on the other hand, your hidden agenda is motivated by your opinion mankind is a virus to be killed off, it may be because your own lives are virulent sores, and so you have nothing constructive or useful to offer us.
Regardless of WHY you're spewing such vicious nonsense is beside the point, though.
The fact is you are, and you're wrong.
Dead. Wrong.
Sooner or later the would-be 'electorate' will shake themselves out of their complacency. I hope you're long gone by the time that happens

@Storm1752

Right, It's 2020 and in that 20 years, only Obama has managed to win. Sure it was partially because of the black vote, but democrats always get the black vote. He motivated the fickle youth to come out for him with a progressive message and that's what put him over the top.

The reason he won is because he promised hope and change, not status quo business as usual like the moderates. It's no coincidence that Obama was the only democratic nominee to run as a progressive and he was also the only one to win in this century. Progressive policy wins because it's popular and it motivates people to vote.

Of course the republicans are deceiving working class people into voting against their own interest. That's not a vast conspiracy, it's common knowledge. What you are not understanding is that the establishment democrats are doing it too. To a lesser extent but they too are mainly concerned with the profits of corporation rather than the well being of the people. If you don't open your eyes to this and resist it, they will continue to do it and we will continue to have no opposition to the fascist republicans.

I'm note sure how you have come to the conclusion that the people energetically fighting for med4all, a living wage, affordable college, an end to the wars, reduction of wealth inequality, renewable energy... are " deeply cynical about human nature your idea of a solution is some kind of anarchist, nihilistic chaos from which will spring some kind of 'rebirth.' " We are attempting to improve our society and voting for right wing candidates is not an effective way to do that.

I'm not going anywhere buddy. At your age, you will be "long gone" much sooner than I and it will be up to my generation to clean up the mess that your generation is leaving us with. Fortunately, we are better informed and more motivated to improve this world than you are.

@TomMcGiverin The Dems were taken by surprise late 70s-early 80s, found themselves on the defensive, and were overwhelmed by anti-democratic people indifferent to the Constitution, the 'marketplace of ideas,' compromise, and respect for others' opinions and points of view.
These people are autocratic, and deeply contemptuous of others they consider inferior and in some cases sub-human.
It is a mistake to think they have only a different ideology.
It may even be a mistake to think they think they're 'good' and Dems are 'evil.'
I'm not sure they even care about such things.
They DO care about winning though, that's for sure.
Maybe it's REALLY, for them, all about money and what it can buy.

@RoboGraham Gore was progressive and he won. He was cheated out of it, Hillary was a poor candidate but she also won the popular vote.
Blacks turned out in historic numbers for Obama. He also benefitted from a deep unpopular war and a catastrophic recession.
ALL Democratic candidates favor the things Obama and Sanders favor. They are not unique.
ALL Democratic candidates favored the campaign finance laws in place at the time of Citizens United, which opened the floodgates to unlimited contributions; for the first time money was equated with free speech.
Except for first Ralph Nader (whose third-party candidacy sunk Gore into a dead heat with Bush, and the Florida Supreme Court fraudulently broke the tie) and now Sanders (who in 2016 ran strongly with white voters but poorly with blacks and other minorities), most Democrats were FORCED to accept contributions from wherever they could get them. Most contributions to Dems come from like-minded individuals and corporations, but some corporations give to both parties to maintain access. It does NOT mean they favor Dems equally, nor does it mean it affects Dems' positions on the issues or their actions once in office.
Even a cursory look at the relative actions of members of each party bears that out.
Look at Obamacare. NOT ONE SINGLE REPUBLICAN voted for it and obstructed it at every turn. EVERY Republican governor opposed it and refused to expand Medicaid.
Finally the Individual Mandate was defeated in court and a once-promsing reform was all but dead .
No difference?
What's wrong with you, Buddy?
You consider Joe Biden a "right-wing candidate?" I'm sorry, I refuse to believe you are really that misinformed.

@Storm1752

A person who not only voted for the Iraq disaster but enthusiastically argued in favor of it alongside republicans, who teamed up with segregationists during civil rights, who has repeatedly advocated for cutting medicare, medicaid, and social security, who wrote the crime bill which caused mass incarceration, who wrote legislation which disqualified people from declaring bankruptcy due to student loan debt, who said just weeks ago that he would veto med4all, who is against cannabis legalization... yes I would label a person who did those things as a right winger.

Did I say there is "no difference"? What I said was this- " the establishment democrats are doing it too. To a lesser extent but they too are mainly concerned with the profits of corporation rather than the well being of the people. " The difference is that the republicans are hardcore fascist while the establishment democrats are moderate right wingers.

I think that you are correct that all, or at least most, democratic candidates are for the eventual implementation of the policies that Obama and Sanders are in favor of, on the surface. It seems to me that most aren't willing to actually fight to get those things and more often buckle to the interests of the powerful elites. I think their support for those things which will actually improve the lives of working class people is mostly political theater to gain support. There is a big difference between what they say they stand for and what they actually are willing to fight for.

Yes Obama and democrats managed to get Romneycare through the democratically controlled congress. What a massive accomplishment. Don't get me wrong, it was a step in the right direction but with the majorities they had, they could have done much better, if they had been willing to fight for it. But they weren't, because that would have upset their donors.

There are plenty of things wrong with me but blind loyalty to a party that doesn't care about me and does not represent me is not one of them.

@RoboGraham I checked: Right on student loans but he now is for LIMITED forgiveness; Right on mass incarceration, though much of that happened on the state level; unfair on civil rights--he was against forced busing, as were a lot of people including many blacks...he was hardly a "segregationist" and has a LOT of black support; unfair on cutting Medicare., Medicaid and Social Security, but right on Med4all; wrong on Iraq--a lot of misguided (for reasons I can't fathom) Democrats voted for that war, when it was obvious very early on no WMDs.
So yes, Bernie (or Warren, or several others) would've been better. I voted for him.
BUT the difference between a Biden administration and a continued Trump administration is still like night and day.
I'm a democratic socialist, but a middle-of-the road Democrat and the cabinet he'd assemble, the policies (in general) he'd pursue, the judges he'd appoint, the brake on rampant Pub criminality and unconstutional behavior he'd represent, the damping-down of evangelical-inspired reactionism, the quieting of the rabid gun lobby, etc., etc., would itself be worthy of my tempered support and some compromise of my purist principles.
Trump and his supporters are downright scary in a way even Bush couldn't match. On a whole different track, I think civil society is evolving rapidly and just needs to be left alone by these maniacs.
If Sanders runs as an Independent it'll doom Biden and I won't vote for him. But a lot of people will, which will be a disaster. Trump could very well win again anyway, which'll mean another four-year news blackout in my house. It'll also mean more retrograde slippage in the state of our society here and in our standing around the world.

Well lets think this through.

Every moderate the democrats have run this century lost.

Gore- lost, Kerry- lost, Clinton- lost. Obama was a moderate but won by running on a progressive hope and change message which motivated the youth to support him in droves. The youth put Obama over the top.

if this pattern continues, and it will, I'll be adding Biden to the list of moderates who alienated the youth and then lost.

@ToolGuy since I have direct experiance I think I'll go with my original analysis instead of leaning on your polysci degree from Google university. Hope you don't mind.

Your prediction is childish, one dimensional analysis that has the added bonus of being a right wing talking point. Congrats.

@RoboGraham Well let's think this through

I wish you would, I really do. I also wish you could read and actually understand a poll and how to apply it to the electoral college. It'd actually show you why I think you're such a misinformed nitwit spouting nonsense. But you can't seem too, and I'm tired of pounding my head against the rock that passes for your political insights - so I'm done here.

@1of5

Yes, give up when you are wrong. That's mature thing to do.

@ToolGuy you can't even remember your prediction? Cool.

@RoboGraham says the guy who won't vote for anyone but Bernie. Talk about maturity, seeing things through, and shooting yourself in the foot while blaming someone else. Seriously, GFYS.

So what are you hoping for, here? To be proven right so everyone can be so much worse off and you can wallow in misery with us all? Noble, mature goal there. Asshat.

@1of5

I'll vote for others. I will not vote for a right wing sex offender though, which is what both of the major parties are currently offering.

The hope is that, by voting for whichever candidate actually represents me and my values, the party will see that blind loyalty can not be expected and hopefully someday, they will do some reflecting rather than just scapegoating and shaming and perhaps they will realize that they can't treat their base this way and expect to win.

What's your plan smart guy? How do expect to persuade people who aren't devoted MSNBC viewers to support Biden?