I was homeless. I witnessed women choosing to use it instead of BC prior to intercourse. I lived in the hood. I witnessed the hookers talk about their latest one. On the flip side, there were two women who should've chosen abortion while homeless. One is on her tenth child, the other her eighth. Yes, I know these women personally.

Also, to my understanding, the site terms state we're allowed to express our personal opinions without being attacked, does it not?

@Melbates people disagreeing with you is not an attack.

@Melbates & the situations you speak to are those that need to be addressed by society as a whole. Better actual education (instead of test taking) & jobs/skills training, better mental health, family support services & addiction services, better social support structures, the list goes on.

Suggesting that access be narrowed to the point that it essentially makes abortion illegal only opens that slippery slope up to making bc harder to get as well as the narrowing of covered services & increase in cost of reproductive health services. The examples you give overall are not the majority but due to socio-economics, those examples tend to be clustered making it seem the majority.

If you're feeling attacked by my stating my point of view on your post, its because this is a sensitive subject & you are speaking from a perspective of personal experience. My personal experiences with my own reproductive health & having to be basically tortured because of a medical-religious affiliation make restriction of health services, whether by legislation or cost a pretty sensitive topic overall for me but no where in my original post were you attacked. However, as a U.S. citizen of female gender, I feel pretty attacked on a daily basis when 13 republican men can sit & decide what reproductive health services i can have without the input if a single woman while the only thing they reference in their decisioning is the bible.

@Blindbird the words used would most certainly be an attack if verbalized.

@SallyInStitches I never suggested any such thing. I'm pro-choice. When did being pro-choice mean you have to agree with every aspect of it?

True. Coathanger abortions would be the norm once again.

I shudder to think of it.

I'm so sorry. My sister begged for a hysterectomy after her first two children. Both were BC babies. Doc said she was too young and might want more. She did have one more. But, took another five years before the hysterectomy.

@Melbates my right ovary is so covered in cysts it looks like a giant exploded piece of popcorn. Nothing viable comes on that side. The left is better but the fallopian tubes are inverted, making anything from that side etopic

Have you talked to your provider about a tubal ligation? You may get the same push back.

@LadyAlyxandrea I have PCOS. I wrote off the option of children years ago, which kills me. I'm only just now getting the medical care I need.

@Donna_I if I'm spending the money, I'd rather wait for my protests to go through and have my lady parts just ripped out.

@Melbates same. PCOS and endometriosis and nada

@LadyAlyxandrea I meet with an endocrinologist later this month. They finally decided to actually test me for PCOS instead of just taking my word for it. I self-diagnosed after reading a magazine article in my teens and have had multiple doctor's over the years say "it's likely you have it but nothing we can do about it."

@Melbates I had a vaginal ultrasound which showed everything but my docs all said the same

Oh, jeez, yes!!!!!

Agreed!!

It’s not even a complex issue in most countries. I don’t live in the USA. Every country I’ve lived in has had free healthcare for everyone, including contraception, abortion and any other interventions necessary. The rest of the developed world is looking at the USA and scratching their head as to how it all got so messed up over there. And, since we are on this site, I think I can safely say that god in politics and with lobby power is at least part of the problem. The other issue is a profit based healthcare system. America is a weird place built around capitalism and ‘christian’ values I don’t understand - because all the decent Christian values - look after your neighbor, the sick, the poor, the needy - are by enlarge ignored.

I do believe this is a site where we're allowed to express our opinion without being attacked.

@jorj I agree with @indubitably on this topic. Just wasn't expecting to be attacked when we're on the same side.

@melbates What part of my statement resembles an attack? I just stated MY opinion, which is different from yours. That is not an attack. Go back and read your first line and you will see we have a difference of opinion.

@Indubitably I didn't know that, to be accepted by the pro-choice crowd you had to agree on every aspect. Your first statement has been used for years as an attack against anyone who may disagree with pro-choice.

@melbates Why are seeking "acceptance" from the pro-choice group if you don't believe in pro-choice? Again, my comment was not an "attack." Anyone who takes that as an attack is completely over-sensitive to people who disagree with them. Get over youself. It was just a simple comment, not an attack.

@Indubitably I've heard those words said to lifers. Hell, I've been the one to say those words to lifers. I heard the tone of voice through the internet cables. You were all geared up to battle a lifer and now you're back-pedaling because your brain can't comprehend I'm pro-choice. I honestly thought the people on this site had a certain level of intelligence that I wouldn't need to outright state pro-choice because I thought the picture spoke for me. I overestimated.

@melbates Careful, your crazy is showing.

@Indubitably "It was just a simple comment, not an attack." Don't take things so personally!!

@melbates Wow

@Indubitably LMFAO!!!!!

It's referencing the "coat hanger" years.

@jorj Agreed, but what if the couple are married?

@Melbates This was the depression and women were savvy enough to know if they couldn't support themselves how could they support a family? We were one of the few countries in which the fertility rate went down during this period. Abortions were illegal and there were no other choices and this will repeat itself if a woman's choice is removed.
BTW, my late partner (mother of 3) had an abortion and then a hysterectomy. She had no regrets and I was proud she took control of her life (this was during a previous, very unhappy marriage).

@JackPedigo you called the poster BS. I'm just giving you context. You went a whole nother direction

@Melbates I just talked to a very good friend. She and my late partner were "adopted sisters" (neither had natural ones of their own and adopted each other because they felt so close). We discussed this issue and I discovered she, an atheist, is also against abortion. She knows her closest friend had an abortion and they disagreed. The bottom line is she is convinced that human life begins at conception. She is very smart and savvy but this is stuck in her mind despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary. I learn something every day.

@jorj We had a couple on island that broke up for that very reason. She had few resources and put out a message she was looking for a partner that wanted a kid. She found one. She is in her early 40's and it will be interesting to see what happens if and when she gets pregnant. Kind of like heaven. If that is the end goal what happens afterward?

@jorj The question was about the right for a woman to have an abortion, it wasn't about a man's right to have/not have a say - that is a very different discussion. However, as you've raised it... I agree there are aspects to parenting and the rights and responsibilities that come with the decision to bring a child into the world which sometimes may not seem fair to one parent and sadly, when left in the wrong hands, can be used (in either direction) against the other.

The biological reality is that women have babies, men don't so there is no possibility of 'true equality' on this issue. There are countless scenarios whereby a man may end up getting a woman pregnant but not want to be with the mother or be a father. And as a result, women can be left pregnant and if they can't/won't access an abortion, they need assistance in supporting a child. I assume you are meaning that a man can end up in jail due to not paying maintenance for child support? As far as I know it isn't a criminal offence to just inseminate someone, unless you are referring to rape.

Men who are engaging in sexual activity but are not wanting a baby need to take personal responsibility to avoid a pregnancy and IF they are engaging in unprotected sex or relying upon a partner to take a pill or similar, they should ask what the partner would do should a child accidentally be conceived. With that said, accidents do happen even when care is taken. And when actually faced with the decision both men and women may change their mind on how they feel towards having a baby, or terminating a pregnancy.

There's no 'easy' fix to get around the fact that men can inseminate women and that if a child is born, it needs to be supported, ideally by both parents in some form or another. The simple solution if a man is not wanting to be a father is to be VERY CAREFUL where they put their semen, or to use a condom if they aren't sure that the woman they are sleeping with is either trustworthy or using contraception correctly.

You will hopefully be reassured to hear that most women REALLY don't want want to fall pregnant in order to get child maintenance. Nor do most women want to end up pregnant to some drop beat guy who has no means or intention to pay maintenance or lacking any desire to be a part of a child's life.

@jorj I didn’t say to keep it in your pants. I just said to be careful with where the sperm goes.

A man insisting a woman that he has impregnated ‘must have an abortion or go it alone’ sounds abusive, rather than a definition of equality. As men have physical strength over women and can force sex or coerce or remove a condom without a woman knowing, women will always be at risk of unwanted pregnancies. Not all women are comfortable with abortion so just because abortion is legal doesn’t mean it’s always an option. (That’s why it’s called ‘pro choice&rsquo

The biological driver for sex is procreation so if people are having sex, they are engaging in a risky activity if they don’t wish to have children.

Equality is taking equal responsibility to avoid the pregnancy in the first place.

It’s simply too easy for a man to serially ‘have accidents’ and then opt out for your suggestion to be a practical solution to unwanted children. The reason child maintenance was put into law was to avoid women and their families from having to take responsibility for a child/children that an absent man was 50% responsible for creating.

A woman can physically sire one child a year while a man (if very lucky) in theory could impregnate multiple woman every day. It therefore is very much a man’s responsibility to be careful where his sperm ends up if he is not keen to be a father. He can stick it wherever he likes if invited to do so but he must also accept the risk if he doesn’t do it safely.

Our discussion here isn’t going to result in any change of law and I’m pretty sure these laws were created to benefit society as a whole - I can’t help but think more people are in favour of child maintenance laws than against them.

@jorj I think you're entirely missing what @Elba321 is saying. I understand what you are trying to get at, but at the end of the day there is no fair way for men to have a say in this because it's a woman's body. You can't make another person do something with their body. That is not equality.

@jorj what would equality look like to you then? If a man wants the baby and the woman doesn't, is it equality to force her to carry the baby to term? Or are you only concerned with a man's "rights" if he doesn't want the baby and she does? I'd be 100% for men being able to abort or keep babies if they were the ones that had to carry them inside their bodies, but they don't. And although I'm not sure how this relates to the topic, but since you brought it up--I think everyone should have access to the health care they need. Men and women should be taken care of equally well--I hate the stereotypes that exist between the genders and I don't believe that men should just have "to suck it up". Men should feel free to be vulnerable and should feel free to ask and receive help when they need it.

@jorj I understand that men have their own issues. It's okay to talk about both issues. It's okay to want to improve both issues for all people. I just don't understand the solution you're trying to suggest. How is it equality for a man to tell a woman what she has to do with her body? I understand that he may not be for the outcome, but at the end of the day it's her still her body. And if you want issues like this to be better resolved, it's in the best interest of all people to provide access to health care that is needed/wanted, not to put more limitations on it. Women's issues are humanists issues. Men's issues are humanists issues. We should all strive for the best for human kind.

@jorj how can men have the same "right" without telling women what to do with their bodies?

@jorj So... what happens if a man and woman decide to make a baby, then 2 months into the pregnancy, he gets cold feet or meets another woman and decides he no longer wants the child after all. Should the woman be forced to have an abortion regardless of her own views on abortion or her own desires to keep the child? Or keep the child with no financial assistance, even though she only fell pregnant because the former partner was initially keen on having a baby together.

You are absolutely right that it is a very difficult area to navigate BUT the solution is not for men to be able to simply walk away from a pregnancy because they've either changed their mind or didn't intend to create a baby in the first place. It takes two and therefore, two people need to be responsible either for taking steps with contraception or upbringing of the child, be that financial or otherwise. Sex does not come 100% risk free.

Out of interest do you personally know any men who've ended up in jail due to not paying maintenance? I don't ... but I do know women who are raising children without financial assistance.

You also raised concerns in an earlier post that women might get access to free/subsidised contraceptive pills - are you against the idea of women having a reliable method of contraception? If you are not keen on having babies, wouldn't access to reliable contraception be a good thing?

@jorj I have never lived in the USA so can't really enter into the broader conversation on healthcare BUT from the outside it does look like the US health system is filled with injustice on every level. All the countries I have lived in (3) have had a high level of health care available to both sexes and across all areas of need and that is how I feel it should be. I am sorry that you live in a country that doesn't deliver on that basic human right.

I do agree with you that the patriarchy has not been kind to men ...unless they fit certain criteria. Until recently in Australia there was very little acknowledgement or discussion around mental health for men even though addiction rates are high and suicide is one of the leading causes of death for young men. There were few support groups and few services designed to help men who needed somewhere to go and talk. Over the last 10 years there has been a shift in creating space culturally through public dialogue to get both men (and women) talking about the fact that men shouldn't always be expected to carry the load, be the tough guy, fill the masculine male stereotype and that it is not only OK but healthy for men to also be sad, cry, or be vulnerable if life was feeling crap. There has also been clinic spaces and 'men's sheds' set up, as places that men of various ages can go to be heard, to speak and to listen and support each other.

This is a real shift in Australia - where 'men are men' and by that, I mean men had to fit the stereotype society put on them or be questioned about their manhood. There is also years of bullying and trauma that men put upon other men for not conforming to the 'norm' - for being too effeminate, too short, too skinny, too gay, too 'unstereotypical'. This has been dished out in schools, boarding houses, university dorms and the workplace for years and it is only now, slowly being recognised as damaging rather than 'friendly banter'.

There is still a long way to go, we are far from being in an equal society and of course this also varies greatly from country to country and also within different social or ethnic groups within a country. No doubt it will take several generations for both men and women to recalibrate on how 'equality' should look and feel. As each new generation comes through, both women and men will hopefully learn from their parents a better way to operate with each other and to honour their own needs as well as the needs of society as a whole.

I am sorry that your experience of feminism has lead you to think that feminist women don't want equality. I can only speak for myself when I say that I want a parter of mine to have all the same opportunities that I have and hopefully that he would want that for me as well.

That's in recent years and select states. When I was homeless, I witnessed multiple pre-coitus conversations where "We don't need condoms. I/you can just get an abortion." Was to be overheard. I lived in the hood. The hookers used the visitors lot out front as their pick up point and the laundry rooms as their fuck spots. One laundry room was on the end of my building. I could hear the conversations when outside smoking a cigarette on my patio. I've witnessed these situations. You can't claim it's a fallacy when I have proof to the contrary.

@Melbates and you feel these are people poised to become good parents? I would gladly pay higher taxes to provide someone in that situation access to abortion, should they want one.

@Blindbird I'm confused. Are you for or against? Your comment doesn't make sense in the context of my statements above.

I've been witness to it, thank you.

@Melbates I don't say it has not happened....but my point is that most pro-lifers want people to believe ALL women use abortion as a method of birth control. IAW, is another myth...as is "If you abort you will never be able to have kids."

I find it interesting we're on the same side and I'm being attacked. I'd hate to see what you do to people you don't agree with.

@Melbates" then don't have one" isn't an attack.. Its a sensible point.
I had a similar conversation with my 8 yo today. We were taking about why I could walk faster than him. I said "because your legs are short". Much like you he got offended and I had to explain that pointing out something obvious, when it is the obvious answer, isn't hostile. It's simply common sense.

@Melbates You said you're against abortion except for this or that reason. That really isn't pro choice. Your first sentence says I'm against abortion.

@sewchick57 didn't know you had to agree with every aspect to be pro-choice. You can be pro-choice and still have personal views that don't agree. Geez, shocking, huh?

I find it interesting we're on the same side and I'm being attacked. I'd hate to see what you do to people you don't agree with.