Neither one is intrinsically good or bad. It all depends on whether there's any moderation involved. Extremism is bad.

Innocent until guilty is a great concept, but we’ve all seen those movies where evidence is planted to discredit people or get the collar rates up.
Movies are scary!

@girlwithsmiles It happens far more frequently in real life than it does in the movies.
Especially for POC.
If you are a person of color, proving your innocence is a much more difficult job than
the prosecution has in proving your guilt.
There is no "presumption of innocence" in the system for people of color, or the poor.

That is one of the ways this nation has always favored rich white people over everyone else.

I really wouldn’t know, but i guess it comes down to that old sociology question, ‘Who polices the police?’. If true, that’s even more scary!

@girlwithsmiles It's not just the police. It's the legal system and the courts, too.
Prosecutors have been known to overlook evidence which would clear an accused
person, simply because they want convictions to make their records look better.
Judges rule similarly.
If anyone holding office is subjected to having to run for it, there will always be those
who believe in "win at any cost". They're more interested in maintaining their positions and power than they are in the law and people's innocence.
Poor people, people of color, and women have all historically been victimized by the
system. This has been happening since those institutions were instituted.

Countless people, both men and women, have been put to death for crimes they
didn't commit.
The news is full of stories about black men being exonerated after having been
convicted of crimes they never committed.
Organizations like The Innocence Project are kept busy re-examining cases where
prosecutorial misconduct, mishandling of evidence by the police, jury tampering, etc., have resulted in numerous innocent people being convicted.

Not to mention the practice of "Civil Asset Forfeiture". The police can seize people's
property, citing "probable cause", or nothing at all, not bring charges against them, and
not have to return said property. The victims of these seizures have to retain legal counsel and sue for the return of their property, and they aren't always successful.
This is one method with which many departments have been supplementing their
annual budgets. This has been occurring for years.
Most of the time, they employ racial profiling when determining who to target.

There is so much that far too many Americans are completely unaware of.
Worse yet, some know and have no problem with it.

@KKGator i watched a program about a man who was black explaining how he and the police use profiling and why. It was very interesting. Have tried to find it since, but can’t unfortunately. (Oh, this was the UK, by the way).

@girlwithsmiles It happens far more frequently than most in those fields would care to admit.
People's rights are being trampled all the time.

@KKGator that’s very sad, I always think of police as people that protect us.

@girlwithsmiles Depending on circumstances, they still can be.
Unfortunately for some, that isn't always the case.

@KKGator yes, that’s sad. People who are BAM or have serious mental health problems seem to definitely have a different experience. But although I feel pretty safe in my Countries I’m afraid I have no desire to go to the US, even though I hear San Francisco especially is great.

@girlwithsmiles Can't blame you. Although, it's true, San Francisco is one of my most favorite cities.

that's a good reason too

All Countries are the same, a lot depends on who your parents are. There’s some weird misconception that the rich are better and more deserving than others, much like the beautiful. Hollywood and books perpetuate this. Many people are blinkered to other realities, it’s convenient to believe the recipe knowledge of mainstream media; plus it makes you part of the herd, which is comforting for people.

@girlwithsmiles We're touching on one of the reasons I'm so angry about the Bible and religion. The sin of my remote ancestor, Adam, makes me born evil. I didn't even know the guy..

@Aristippus i prefer Stevie Wonder’s Ebony and Ivory, much more healthy words to live by and not much to it

Sarcasm? If not just wondering how many Countries have you been to?

@girlwithsmiles "What is something commonly believed to be true that is actually not?"

@LovinLarge ah, sorry and thank you

Your points are excellent, and yes, we do need to treat animals far better than we do. Whenever possible, which is nearly always, I purchase my meat from ethically run farms that practice regenerative livestock raising practices.

I am skeptical of the ability, long-term, so use supplements to offset what one misses by not eating animals. Evolution is smarter than us. I particularly worry about the lack of animal nutrients and the impact on brain function.

You may wish to read the book The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith. Lierre is a self-described radical feminist, whip-smart, and was a long-term vegan. It damaged her. The book is thoughtful and addresses all of the issues from nutrition to the ethics of eating animals.

@Mitch07102 The main reason that I have not gone full on vegetarian ( I would never even consider being vegan) is that I think we do need some meat in our diets. And, I am not disciplined enough to eat all the right combinations of what I would need to replace that meat. Also, I agree, human brains were able to evolve as they did because our pre-human ancestors ate meat.

The best way to ensure the ethical treatment of an animal is to do as you are, or to raise them one's self.

I have chickens and ducks, but I don't raise them for meat. I get too attached to animals and I could never kill something I have looked in the eyes, and named, and hugged, and most likely kissed on occasion .

They are first and foremost pets and secondarily supply me with more eggs than I know what to do with (I give a lot away). Which reminds me, one of my ducks laid a rather strange looking egg this morning and its still in my pocket. Last time I forgot an egg was in my pocket I leaned against the counter and got a not so nice gooey surprise.

I luvs 'em !

In case you’re wondering

I am afraid that I am solidly boring

@RobinGray I don't know looks fine to me.

@RobinGray I love color!! That room is amazing

@Mitch07102 Maybe your favorite colors are Gray and white. I love color but at 1 time I had lots of Gray carpet and silver Gray walls. I'm in my yellow and blue period now.

@RobinGray Your floors are wonderful. Is your Room circular?

@Lorajay no it’s a panoramic picture. These are original floors from 1904.

@Lorajay a straighter shot

@Fred_Snerd that’s cool

@RobinGray Wow , beautiful.

@Lorajay Gray, black, white.

@RobinGray Even without the curves they are beautiful floors.

@RobinGray, @Fred_Snerd Super cool way to change your color scheme.

I used to have a friend who tried everything Dr.Oz or Sally Jesse Raphael pushed.....her watchword was, "oh, but it's NAAATURAL! Yeah, okay, so is heroin, uranium, lead, asbestos, arsenic, cocaine, and etc.......

I respectfully suggest you read The Carnivore Code by Dr. Paul Saladino. Not because I'd expect you to eat more meat (I recall it causes you inflammation. He discusses the gut microbiome issue. You may rethink Dr. Burke's POV.

@Mitch07102

My father died of colon cancer at 51.

@LiterateHiker Sorry to hear it.

Or bottled water is safer than what comes out of your tap.

I say this even though I survived the Milwaukee Cryptosporidium outbreak.

Regarding factory farming, I agree.

Regarding longevity, not. I am starting my workday so will have to come back to this study. I can almost guarantee that it is based on observational epidemiology and there are a number of confounders.

Just a tidbit for you: People in Hong Kong lead the world in meat consumption, and they are long-lived. If meat is "bad" for you, how can this be? Maybe there are other factors at work?

@Mitch07102 Yes I know. And the people who still consume the traditional diet in Okinawa eat small amounts of meat as well. The trend across studies shows: 1. that the more whole foods you eat, the longer you live; and 2. the less meat you regularly consume, the longer you live. These are statistical trends, that does not automatically prove that eating less meat is the sole indicator of longevity. But, in cross longitudinal studies, the meat consumption factor appears to be statistically significant.

@Nunya Actually, not.

"Essentially, the investigators concluded that the evidence for adverse outcomes associated with meat consumption is too weak to recommend reducing its consumption.2"

[peterattiamd.com]

Actually, casual research, and more rigorous research, will counter much of what you say. Nonetheless, if a plant-based diet works for you, good.

@Mitch07102 Predictable response. This debate long ago became like the ones in politics. True or not, folks are able to find whatever it is they need to support their views. Onward ...

@evergreen "Essentially, the investigators concluded that the evidence for adverse outcomes associated with meat consumption is too weak to recommend reducing its consumption.2"

[peterattiamd.com]

@Mitch07102 The animals who are dying beg to differ.

@evergreen In order for humans to live, other living things must die. It isn't nice, and yes factory farms are awful, but even the strictest vegans cause death. It isn't nice, but it is reality.

You may wish to read The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith. Lierre is brilliant, intense, a self-described radical feminist, and one-time staunch vegan. She severely impacted her health. She does a very good job addressing the ethics of eating meat.

@Mitch07102 "and yes factory farms are awful, but ... "
"Who gives a shit, right ? - it's not effecting you "

Your opinion has been noted ...

@evergreen order all of my animal protein from farms that practice regenerative agriculture practices, organic, grass-fed, etc. I make no apologies for eating animals.

I am grown up. Read The Carnivore Code chapter where there is a discussion of the actual impact on the climate. It is different than what you self-righteously assert.

i agree I love my meat based diet but eating more veggies and having meatless days is a good thing for the body and the planet

@Mitch07102 Nope. I believe in science. I suppose you don't wear a mask either?

@ReadyforaChange Actually, I do.

Don't confuse dogma with science. Nutrition is full of the former.

@Mitch07102 @Mitch07102 Good for you, wearing a mask is a responsible and adult thing to do. FYI I have researched for 20 years. I am never eating meat again. PERIOD.

@ReadyforaChange I have researched for 60 years and live it it. Impossible to obtain necessary nutrients from plants, plus plants contain lectins that are damaging to plant predators to protect themselves from being eaten, such as gluten. Read The Plant Paradox, The Vegetarian Myth and The Vegan Betrayal and get back to me. As a doctor for over 45 years, have never met a vegan or vegetarian who didn't have significant nutritional issues.

Money talks, bullshit walks?

The lipid theory of heart disease has been disproven repeatedly. Natural fats are fine. Treat all industrial oils like poison. They are.

@Mitch07102 that’s interesting, thanks.

@girlwithsmiles You are welcome.

I am one of those rare people that many years ago (over 20) lost a good amount of weight and have kept it off. At 65, my weight is good, I exercise regularly, and my biomarkers are excellent. I have the strength of a much younger man. I'm not bragging; it saddens me that so many people, because of their lifestyle, suffer ill-health. I've already lived to an older age than my father and grandfather.

When asked "what should I do", I advise:

-Keep your weight check. Be rigorous about this. If you slip and your weight goes up 2 or 3 pounds, stop eating until it comes back down. You won't die
-Maintain strength. It is essential. Sarcopenia is a risk as you age.
-Avoid the standard American diet, it is called SAD for a reason. There are many ways to do this, though I strongly advise against a vegan diet. I see too many people who at some point develop serious nutrient deficiencies. The initial good feelings and improved health are usually because they were eating poorly, maybe using too many substances, etc.
-Two absolutes regarding diet: no added sugar or any of its equivalents, sparse on other refined carbs (best to avoid, bread and pasta are not your friends), and repeating what I said above, treat industrial oils like poison. Coming into the1900's, they were used to lubricate machinery. Why would you eat them?
-Calories matter, but if you are eating nutrient-dense real food it is easy to avoid over-eating
-Alcohol and drugs are not your friends
-Practice fasting on a regular basis. I frequently go a day or two without eating, and nearly always eat in no more than a 6-hour window. It keeps insulin low, which is important. When fasting for a full day or more, drink water with sodium and potassium chloride (no salt) in it, about a teaspoon of each in a couple of liters of water. It is important to keep your electrolytes up.

@Mitch07102 very interesting, I too try to be careful with sugars and regard a lot of what is popular in supermarkets as non foods, although i do have a weakness for crisps as a treat and enjoy 3 cubes of good quality, ( fair trade), dark chocolate with my afternoon coffee most days. I used to have a spray bottle and sprayed virgin olive oil instead of marg, but that’s gone. (Here’s an article about sodium vs salt that i found informative [sodiumbreakup.heart.org].

@girlwithsmiles Good for you, and a controlled amount of just about anything, like dark chocolate, so long as you are reasonably good is fine. Just like a glass of wine is OK, even though I advocate no alcohol at all as optimal for health. Of course, rare is the person who actually just has "a glass of wine." Good luck.