CNN for the Left
FoxNews for the right

Only one sided who give numbers convenient to them. Quote NPR, PBS or BBC and I will try to listen.

We on the left (just the folks on the right do) like to believe what we want to believe.

I am sure nobody here believes that Biden calling Trump... shut up man, he is a clown, shushhh... will not hurt Biden, right? Yeah, we thought the same and enjoyed when Hillary's called voters "deplorables." Now we don't admit how it came back to bite our ass bad.

@St-Sinner Again, false equivalency to compare what Biden said to Trump's monstrously bad behavior. People criticized Clinton because they were already primed to do so and any excuse would suffice. There are not the same kind of vitriolic prejudices toward Biden, not by anywhere near the same numbers nor to anywhere near the extent.

@St-Sinner [bbc.com]
BBC uses CBS for its partner in U.S. snap polls, which showed Biden we nning outside the margin of error. BBC's own analysis for f the overall race showed Biden substantially ahead and the debate seeming to do nothing to change that, which again is a win for Joe.

@St-Sinner Reuter's, similar analysis, again, in the aggregate, a win for Biden, because he is already ahead and lost no momentum from the admittedly cringeworthy debate.
[reuters.com]

@MikeInBatonRouge

I am asking you to look at both sides, not just one side. What Trump did does not diminish what Biden did.

@St-Sinner i get it, but I disagree in practicle terms. It IS a horse race, and winner takes all, like it or not.

@MikeInBatonRouge

Now that Biden is winning with Trump's horrible behavior, Biden will look like a knight in a shining armor.

@St-Sinner lol! Some kinda armor, anyway.

We can start our "constructive" criticism of Biden once this election is over. Too much is at stake at moment to be picking apart our only alternative to the malignant narcissist fascist with aspirations of dictatorship.

@MikeInBatonRouge

"Constructive" for Biden and "What" for Trump? No limits?

@St-Sinner To be "constructive," criticism requires someone who might consider it and learn from it. That is impossible with tRump, because "he is who he is." Trump is an incorrigible menace to humanity, a pox on this nation, and to an extent, on the world.

@MikeInBatonRouge

It is not true and that is what I am arguing against.

We fail at leadership, cannot find good leaders, must choose the oldest presidential candidate in history, we could not succeed at taking down Trump in spite of mountain of evidence, 8 House member defect on passing stimulus bill while Republicans stay united in everything all the time, Republicans claim more ideological and political victories at local, state and federal levels.... Prove only one thing.

We suck at leadsrship and at winning more than Republicans do.

@St-Sinner I agree with you; we suck at winning. I think that is something more than just poor strategy. Fundamentally, conservatives, in addition to eagerness to outright cheat, are much more likely to admire autocratic-style "strength," and they are more likely to believe that loyalty to a strong leader will be rewarded. That basic world view is reflected in conservative's religious paradigms. ie "awe inspiring almighty God," and all the kingly and warfare imagery that goes with that. Left-leaning people value diversity of ideas("come, let us reason together" ) and respect for diversity, as well as helping the vulnerable, rather than worshipping power for power's sake. I agree with progressive values, but the fractiousness of it gets exasperating, which is why I get frustrated hearing progressives continue to pick apart the winners of their own side's nominating process after that contest is already over. Don't blame the tired old man with a stutter. Blame the process. For us to start clinging to autocratic measures defeats our values. We have to actually support "big tent" progressive values, not just rip everyone who does not cram themselves into our personal camping tent. (Seperately, we also must fix the political stacked deck of gerimandering and electoral college nonsense that allows their minority to keep stealing elections.)

Fund raising spikes happen all the time. Not new.

But I don't agree that winner and loser will not be known soon. Optics are very important. People make opinions immediately after the debate. Most media outlets declare their takes innediately within hours. Candidates don't get second chances to improve.

Both candidates did terribly. Both are unworthy of presidency of the United States. Trump is bad beyond doubt but I would like to see some objectivity here and we admit when we are lousy.

@St-Sinner No one did well in this debate. The broad public perception, aside from that of his most ardent supporters, was that Trump was primarily responsible for the magnitude of awfulness. That alone is a win for Biden.
Re. Campaign donation spikes being common, this one was record-breaking.

I disagree.

The expectations were high to find out if Biden was up to it since there was a lot of talk about Biden being frail, stuttering, forgetful, has an amnesia problem and so on.....

We all know about Trump and how bad is. Eyes were not on Trump. We knew what he was going to do. Beating a dead horse was not the goal of watching the debate. People wanted to find out if Biden could beat Trump.

@St-Sinner and from what I saw, he DID beat Trump. You apparently were wearing different glasses.

@MikeInBatonRouge
Only you are calling it a victory. No media outlet said he beat Trump. Most say both were terrible.

@St-Sinner "The expectations were high to find out if Biden was up to it since there was a lot of talk about Biden being frail, stuttering, forgetful, has an amnesia problem and so on....."

I don't think there is "a lot of talk". There is just Trump talking.

@itsmedammit The pressure is heaviest on Trump to close the gap. I saw few minds changed, but if anything, tRump managed to offend more women, which will not help him in those suburbs he keeps referring to. Blatant racists appeals that are immediately called out are not going to help him. If anything, it galvanizes both bases, which should slightly help Biden, who remains ahead by more than the margin Clinton had in 2016.

Expect more dirty tricks from tRump, sure! But don't assume the public is quite as easily taken in by them this time. Part of what sank Clinton was her pre-existing poor likability, unfortunately. Biden does not have that problem or the added challege of sexism on his back.

@MikeInBatonRouge I agree that it is mostly mutual galvanizing going on. I don't think there will be any less division any time soon. What we can strive for is a strong voter turnout and the swaying of the independents, who, by some measures have been put off by the recent unrest. I have already voted and see that nearly 900000 have already voted in 2020 compared to around 10000 during 2016 at this time relative to election day. I did like that Biden made a point to speak directly to voters to get out and vote.

We liked it, we also liked when Hillary called voters "Deplorables" and we know how it turned out in 2016. So go ahead and laugh. Voters are watching.

I don't like Trump but election is about tactics and visuals. Many people watched Biden's condescending. Let us see if the polling gaps will start closing in the last 2 weeks like it did in 2016.

@St-Sinner Historically, polling gaps almost always do close somewhat in the final weeks. That is less about performance now than baked in tendancies of voter psychology.

I certainly agree this is no time for complacency, with two debates remaining and inevitable October Surprise of some sort, but nothing is achieved by turning hyper-critical of Biden. Focus needs to be on the Orange Turd squatting in the White House.

@MikeInBatonRouge

Big things are achieved if criticisms of Biden prove true and Trump ends up proving it in debates. That is what I am worried about.

What should we do? Ignore Biden's weaknesses and let Trump and Republicans run with it like Hillary gave away the election in 2016 with her repulsive attitude?

@St-Sinner no, but you are exaggerating Biden's weaknesses, and that serves no good purpose.
Right now focus is deservedly on Trump's horror show. If we notice things of concern regarding Biden, we could at least find some constructive critique, not pile onto minor issues like people did about Hillary's stupid emails. Don't hand a microphone to sidewalk evangelists for red herring issues. Focus deserves to remain on the president's record and Biden's plans for repairing the damage.

Again, no Dem candidate could have built much of a clarion message out of that tantrum-filled debate last night. Biden did fine, all things considered, and I dare say everyone by now knows he has had a lifelong stutter challenge. So what. It is old news. Voters are not distracted by that at this point. Trump's avalanche of lies and petty insults and, yes, stupid mistatements, are more relevant to most voters. That is why I say you exaggerate Joe's weakness, and it serves no constructive purpose.

@MikeInBatonRouge

I am giving my assessment after reading all media reports. Nobody is declaring Biden a winner.

But Trump supporters think Trump won and Biden supporters thin Biden won. A few know that the fight is the only for the middle 10% to 15% undecided who are watching and that is why they are undecided. They are the ones who will either close the polling gap or give Biden a huge mandate.

After yesterday, I did not see Biden was confident, aggressive even after knowing the country is angry with Trump. Biden was on the defensive.

@St-Sinner I didn't like when Hiliary used the phrase "basket of deplorables". I may have agreed with her, but I thought it was not a good thing to say. Funny how roundly criticized she was for not being PC, while people like Trump are praised for not being PC. In any case I have noticed that he can dish it out but not take it.

That’s too light!! Lol

He’s a downright piece of human garbage.

@itsmedammit And that’s the ultimate little fag and little pussy........someone who can give it but can’t take it back. I personally see that as a real human weakness.

@SeaRay215ex Why would you use derogatory terms for gays and women?

@itsmedammit

Hillary was a lousy candidate just like Dukakis was in 1993. Hillary is not a leader and I am going to say this without being a sexist but she would be nowhere in politics without Bill Clinton. She shined with someone else's light. That is why she did not leave Bill even after a nation publicity about what her husband did in the Oval Office with vivid details. No self-respecting women would stay with any man after things like that.

What makes me sad is how we continue to celebrate less than ordinary heroes like Biden, Bernie, Beto, Tulsi...... Not one looks like presidential material to me. Why are our standards to low that we would choose someone like Bernie "knowing full well" that American presidential election is a contest of personalities? Visual matter big time. Throwing hands in the air while talking, uncombed hair all over in air in a national TV interview, foam to your face while talking, hunchback candidate for president? Most voters can tell you No before even hearing the policies and ideas from him.

Just a passion in a fringe group of Occupy Wall Streeters who have hatred against financial success and the rich cannot win American presidency ever and Bernie was asking for a revolution in one of the richest nations in the world?

@St-Sinner Bernie was not my initial choice, though I've come to really like him. I love his passion and clear integrity. I also like the hair all over the place. For me, he has a great personality and he is a dedicated public servant. He actually gives a crap. And he seems pretty smart too.

I appreciated Hilary for different reasons. She is tough as nails and I felt she was strong enough to run the country. Mainstream is not crazy about a strong woman, especially one who might have trouble working with the everyday folk.

@itsmedammit

I respect your choices but you are dismissive of American voters who did not choose either Bernie or Hillary. You are arguing that American voters do not appreciate good candidates?

Please do not say Hillary got the popular vote. Hillary lost 8 states to Trump that Obama won. How bad could it be?

I have been insisting in all posts that we do not understand what American presidential elections are all about. It is not about being a nice guy, intelligent etc. It is all about marketability and both are very poor at that. This is Biden's luck this time that Trump is imploding with his own stupidity, else Biden could not beat Trump.

@St-Sinner Yes, we all know that elections are not won by the most qualified person, but rather on superficial attributes.

How am I being dismissive of other voters? All I have done was stated some of my opinions, none of which are relevant in any case. We have a candidate.

@itsmedammit

You said... "Mainstream is not crazy about a strong woman"

This is dismissive about voters and suggesting they do not accept a strong woman. The mainstream is a huge voter section of the society. It is the majority. Far left, Bernie and far right and white supremacists are fringe groups.

I do not think it is true that the majority of voters do not accept a strong woman. They would gladly accept a strong woman is she is worthy of their votes of merits. Hillary Clinton was not worthy of their votes and that is why they voted her down and chose a weirdo instead. That is how much the repulsion was against Hillary.

She was not a natural leader, she called voters "Deplorables", she started forming a transition team like she took the win for granted, she assembled the same team that worked with Bill Clinton 20 years ago.. like John Podesta etc. She talked, walked and answered questions in interviews that she was entitled to the office. I as a democrat was turned off by her. How come you did not notice what the mainstream noticed?

I have heard a lot about how bad Trump is and others are but hardly seen anyone admit how bad oyt candidates are. Based on what happened and how she lost, I hoped that you would notice the Democratic candidates faults instead of blaming the mainstream for not accepting a strong woman.

Hillary was not strong, she is clinged on her husband for political office, many know she had no political capital of her own, she learned political ropes with Bill's help, she used his team, she took his advice. Any woman would leave husband when her husband's news headlines flash on national newspapers that he put a cigar in an intern's vagina and admitted it to the federal investigator. But she did not leave. She had a political agenda. The mainstream notices, watches even if we Democrats and left keep glorifying her. It does not work that way.

I would not certainly call Hillary a strong woman. "Strong woman" is a term that is often mentioned in corporate ladders, glass ceilings etc. In some cases it is true but in many it is an excuse for not measuring up. It is an accusation because she truly cannot make it.

@St-Sinner You and I are wearing different glasses. Bernie, btw, was hugely popular, not a fringe.

@itsmedammit

I respect your opinion because we all have different preferences and passions but Bernie to me is no way in the mainstream. I am not going to say your are wrong but I will tell you my opinion.

Bernie's appeal is limited among people frustrated with capitalism in a prosperous country. There are ills because we have allowed capitalism to go unmonitored for decades. No economic system runs well on its own. It must managed, monitored and controlled. Free Trade also means trade agreements with conditions.

A solution to the excesses of capitalism in a country like America that is envied by the rest of the world for many successes is not ask for a revolution. That is stupidest idea I ever heard. (Now Bernie supporters might say he did not mean that kind of revolution just like Bible thumpers say Oh, Bible did not really mean that). Bernie's rants against millionaires, billionaires, the rich, against capitalism have done tremendous harm to the Democratic party but had caused his campaigns to fail from early on.

Biden was right that the solution was to correct the problems in the current system and there is big room for improvement. Anger is never a rallying cry for the voters across the nation. It works in ultra progressive corners.

To me, Bernie and supporters are not different from the Far Right extremists including Trump supporters.

Lastly, anyone who understands what we are up against and how American presidential elections are held and run would never ever support such wild ideas, unsuitable candidate with unfit demographics and mediocre performance in Congress for 30 years. American presidential elections is a personality contest above everything. Bernie fails that seriously.

Biden fails that test too and the only reasons he may get elected for are:

1. Trump is doing Biden huge favors by making outrageous mistakes one after another. He is making voters more upset and angry
2. Biden is now seen as "bad" vs "worse" Trump". It is a pathetic choice. Otherwise, Biden would not win against Trump.

All I expect from us as freethinkers is not be brainwashed by fanaticism and publicity by the extreme elements in the society and think better than the ignorance we decided to leave behind in our lives and society. We should think objectively. We should look at both sides and demand performance from our leaders when they are failing, are ineffective and selfish. And there are many of our such leaders around that we conveniently forget while being blinded by the rage against Trump.

Trump being bad does not automatically make us good.

@St-Sinner "Trump being bad does not automatically make us good." Nobody is saying that.

@itsmedammit

Not you but the general sense I get on this platform us is we have that implied sense in how we comment on Trump. We get mean and blinded by hatred totally ignoring who and how our leadership is..

Media's Rating of the Debate
Media all over are saying Biden survived. And Biden not imploding, not making stupid remarks, stumbling while talking, was a victory. That means not being bad is good. That is the yard stick for our candidate. We have come to this.

Biden Looked Frail
As for Biden's performance, he looked frail, still struggled to find words, stuttered a little and kept quiet while Trump kept starting ad pointing at Biden while Biden kept looking down. I am cure many noticed these just like I did. Trump is bad, repulsive and people are angry, no doubt about it but don''t try to adore Biden in the debate performance. It just sounds silly. I understand we want our candidate to win and badly want him to win.

Condescending Again Like Hillary's "Deplorables"?
What you may not have noticed is what Biden did that may come back to haunt us just like we were riding high in 2016 calling Trump supporters "deplorables", stupid, ignorant, illiterates etc. That came back to haunt Hillary because it galvanized the Trump base to come out to vote and secondly, some moderates who live in the countryside who are not educated, are farmers got upset too.

We are not in the Majority
We keep forgetting that the country is split in the middle. We will never take the South. The world is not according to what and how we want it. This country is still divided 42:43 on either way. The fight in presidential elections is in only for the middle 12% to 15% who are not verbal online or on TV but are quietly watching. Biden called Trump "clown", he smirked, he laughed like he knows everything better, he was condescending... all these will turn of some moderates. If I were Biden advisor, I would ask him to not do that and come out as tough but a likable guy. Biden was not likable to me. He also looked slow with eye lids dropping, looking down many times, laughing awkwardly.....

You will notice the Truth Only by Being Objective
I hope you are noticing many salient things objectively. But if you are like a Trump supporter who sees no wrong in their candidate, the surprise may come again in November 2020 juts like it did in 2016. Even Trump was surprised at how voters came out of woodwork to vote him in. A few pundits said that it was Hillary's gift to Trump with condescending.

Hillary Lost 9 States that Obama had Won
Did you know Hillary lost 9 states that Obama had won in 2008 and 2012? It seems we are not aware of it and are treating the conservatives like a fringe group. It will haunt us.