I think it's far more likely they don't vaccinate or even neuter their animals.

You think just like me!

@Kojaksmom Great minds, eh?

@hemingwaykitten Alas, you are probably right.

Copy that. I spent 15 months travelling around the world last year/this year. I never got sick once. I was an absolute champion. Then I crashed with a friend in Melbourne for a few weeks. He had his 8 year old for the weekend. I got a chest infection so bad it partially collapsed my right lung. Ugh. Kids. Walking disease vectors. Also highly objectionable, but no one ever accused me of being clucky

I wish I could give this a hundred "thumbs up!"

the rise in autism also correlates with corn-syrup and processed foods- I do not think vaccines are the culprit

There is a strong correlation to genetics. Which is difficult to effect through foods or medicines (medicines not specifically aimed at genetic change at least). Same goes for chemicals. Radiation has been known to have some effect on genes and I think that is due to prolonged damage. Ie: if you are subject to prolonged exposure to very minor amounts of radiation, you will suffer damage and it could be at the genetic level. Example would be prolonged tanning and skin cancer.

In short: Vaccines are highly unlikely to be the culprit.

I've heard of some cases such as the ones you've mentioned.

It's a difficult situation - the overwhelming good that vaccines can do and have done are astounding. Virtually wiping out the targeted diseases in the countries/areas where mass vaccination programs were put in place. And statistically speaking there's virtually no chance of there being a negative reaction to being vaccinated.

But no matter how low the chance: 1% or .0001%, if it's your kid, and your kid has a reaction, the stats just went to 100% for your kid, and that would be devastating.

Spock might says, “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one)", but when that "one" is your kid - it's not so clear cut.

@scurry Yeah, I know. Autism and vaccines are widely associated (although I'm not sure how hard the data is on that). But I keep going back to herd immunity. Which is where the Spock analogy comes in. The herd needs to come first.

There are risks to virtually everything in life. There's an overwhelming benefit for the vast majority that are vaccinated.

@Palindromeman I don't disagree, I'm just sympathetic to the .0001% that has that negative reaction. It would really suck.

@scurry Copy that. Big time suckage. I once dealt with a woman whose son was injured by mercury which was used as a preservative in a vaccine. Tragic. Millions of children in developing countries live because of these vaccines. Hers was injured for life. I felt so bad for her. But it is a numbers game.

Hells yes. Herd/community immunity is key.

well said!

Good one, crazy. It's that balance between individual decisions and societal impacts, that's what is important when it comes to vaccines.

@Palindromeman kniht uoy yaw eht ekil I ahahah

@crazycurlz You is clever!

@Palindromeman hahaha actually I was just pretty stinking tired.

@crazycurlz Still funny, though, so snaps for that.

That's got to be so scary for a parent of young children today. My son is grown. I can't imagine having to have to worry about this when the tools for prevention are readily available.

@crazycurlz That's my point. They are sticking their head in the sand in denial when help is available. I can't imagine ignoring my children's problems to the point where a friend has to tell me they are fucked up. She is responsible for screwing the young child up and the only response I got for years was a deer in headlights look. I can barely think about it without having a stroke.

@hemingwaykitten I know that's your point. I am giving you support. I really can't imagine what I would do if I had to deal with this lunacy. Why provide families with vaccinations and then leave kids totally exposed? That's just stupid.

@crazycurlz Thank you for the support. I've been losing my mind the past week and I'm sorry I misunderstood. I cannot stop the heavy depression I am in over this and other problems. I don't even like kids in general but I can't call DHHS on her because she works there. ?

@hemingwaykitten If you ever suspect abuse or neglect, call child protective services or adult protective services. Look those numbers up by state. Hope this helps. It's an anonymous call.

humans are NOT greater than any other animal on the Earth....in fact, they are the most destructive and greedy. While they can be brilliant and walk on the moon...the fact is that BILLIONS more humans have died in wars than have walked on the moon. That should tell you everything you need to know about human nature.

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure:

@Fanburger is demonstrating the greatest pinnacle of human arrogance....the same arrogance which has created the human monsters who are happily munching through the natural resources of the Earth....destroying the oceans....mowing down the rainforests....driving whole species to extinction....because humans are the best thing ever!

@Fanburger just because I do not like it (I remember life before the polio vaccine came out!) doesn't make it any of my business, or yours.

@Fanburger....I suppose you believe that vaccines should be government mandated too...and that the government has the right to tell us what to put in our bodies -- and order us to do so too?

At least until you contract measles, mumps, rubella or polio from their kid. Then you have a good chance of dying. I'd say that's very much your business.

@hemingwaykitten thanks for the comment. Ihave had my vaccinations thank you. I read your post. Maybe you can write another one on how you have successfully changed someones mind on this

Thanks. Christ is really enjoying his sidecar!

@Louie406 Dunno. I had vaccinations, but only after I was older. They keep adding more "required" baby vaccinations, and according the data I accessed, unknown to the medical society, every time the vaccinations were increased, there was a corresponding leap in reported autism. I didn't vaccinate my kids, but they were home schooled until middle school when I was divorced and had to work, and by then they were old enough that the vaccinations didn't seem to harm them.

Right <rolls up sleeves>. An issue about vaccinations has been the use of mercury as a preservative. The thing is, it's the only way to get multi shot vax safely into developing countries. There is a (vague) connection with autism. But vaccinated kids get a better shot at living than those who are not. It's a numbers game.

@Palindromeman Sure..that's what they always say. Same with deadly GMOs and other toxic things being foisted on populations through Big Pharm and the Oligarchies.

@Palindromeman Even that vague connection is suspect as Andrew Wakefield, the Dr who did the study, was a fraud conspiring with a firm of ambulance chasers to start a class action to sue the NHS for vaccine injury, AND trying to sell his own brand of MMR vaccine. He's been struck off and his "research" (dodgy both as a study and from a research ethics PoV) retracted

Start here:

[npr.org]

Autism has been known about since long before vaccinations were a thing. Just known only to the medical community, and only a small portion of that (those that specialized basically). Identified in WWII.

The 'increasing cases' were due to recognizing the fact that the original disorder was too narrowly scoped (one of the two doctors working in Germany, who originally identified the disorder knew this, his boss shot him down). The widening of the scope of the diagnosis of autism coincided with the advent of vaccinations. This coincidence was fodder for folks to say "gee, look!" It's simply post hoc, ergo proctor hoc reasoning. This happened before that, therefore this caused that when this and that are not at all correlated.

@Gnarloc That's not what the medical papers I read said. They did say to SAY what you just quoted, warning that they'd be sued and run out of town if people knew the truth.

I even read that sort of stuff in medical journals in the 1970s that were lying on the end tables in doctor's offices. Go ahead and trust them, if you like. I don't trust them or the US government..have you even read the Wikileaks papers, where Hillary transcripts show her plotting with the GMO owners on how to deceive the public. WAKE UP. Or go back to sleep. Whatever.

Sorry, I stick to science and publications that at least try for objectivity.

As for reading old medical journals, I have. Mostly from the 16th and 17th century and it's amazing what we thought was true back then and have learned since.

Yeah, t hat sounds spurious doesn't it? My point is that information, specifically science, builds. Science, and research, builds in a logical progression. Starting from old research and asking questions about it. Often discovering that the old was false or that there is a nuance to it that progresses the art.

Example: Back in the '50s research was done on Cocaine and Heroin. In that research rats were kept in small cages and given two bottles. One had water, the other had water laced with either drug. In 100% of the cases, these rats, living alone in these cages, died of overdoses of said drugs. The conclusion? These drugs are 100% addictive. They will cause their victims to overdose and die.

In the '70s, a doctor read t his research and questioned it. He thought that if HE were forced to live in a bedroom, with the two sources of water, he too might decide to check out, intentionally. So, he tried an experiment in which he build a rat Disneyland. It had all the amusements you could think of, food, water and other rats to socialize with. Yes, there was also laced water available. The rats did try the tainted water. Virtually NONE went back. They did not like the tainted water. Yes, there was at least one rat that liked the water and partook and may well have overdosed but it certainly wasn't 100% addictive as nearly all the rats sampled. The conclusion? The drugs are powerful but are NOT 100% addictive and certainly aren't something that once you've tried it, you are done for. Which was part of the conclusion of the earlier research.

If you restrict your view to old research and do not read up, or heed, newer research and the results thereof, it is not I who is sleeping. Read the recent research. Compare it with the old, realize that much of the new research uses the old results to update information and grow with it, as in my example above. If you question the results, good. Go out and find MORE information but, don't restrict yourself to sources that support only your view. That is a logical fallacy which has a name: confirmation bias. Restricting you view to only that information that fills your views.

[npr.org]

Back when I was young the phrase was "question authority." I railed against that when I was young thinking it was simply asking for chaos. Now I use the phrase "question everything" and i intend that to mean ask questions, do your own research, read, listen, inform yourself and go out of your way to find conflicting views in order to best make your own mind up about them.

@Palindromeman "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one." -- Mr. Spock, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

@Louie406 there is a reasonably strong correlation between genetics and autism. So, there is your reason.

People point at vaccinations as the cause in order to deflect from their genes being at fault since that puts the fault squarely on their own shoulders (they think). The reality is that with good genes, or bad genes, you are not guaranteed a viable, or optimal, combination. It happens. As our population grows, the absolute number of babies born with these conditions grows and it seems like the problems are increasing. I think if we were to check the percentages (I have not) we'd find that the same rate of incidence is happening now as happened back in the day.

Look through history, there have been many notices of people who were 'special'. Mozart was a sort of genius in music, so was Beethovan, both had different forms of socially acting against the norm. Were either or both what we would think of as autistic, specifically within the Aspergers range?

Look at Amun Ra, King Tut. He had genetic disorders, just not (that we know of) mental.

It's been going on as long as people have been having children. We just now have a new 'smoking gun' to point at and absolve ourselves from thinking the answer might lie in ourselves.

For the record, I work with developmentally delayed kids. I have done so at Elementary, Middle, High School and Beyond. I SEE how young kids in Elementary school look like lost causes and how they can be taught to be functional adults. It takes a LOT of TLC and patience but it can be done. I am horrified at our history. We used to look at those elementary kids say "nothing can be done" and put them in asylums. They would never become functional and just whither under abuse and die. Yet, we still have sigma that says there is something wrong with these kids that can't be helped. The fact is, it CAN be helped. We just need to choose to invest in helping them.

Anyone who refuses to vaccinate their children puts '...society in jeopardy because of their personal decisions.' The children who are vaccinated are vaccinated in stages, the first immunizations beginning 6-12mos (I've forgotten the schedule). Total protection doesn't happen with the first stage, leaving children who otherwise would be protected vulnerable to children whose parents are welcoming the return of diseases that have pretty much been eradicated until now...measles, mumps, whooping cough, chicken pox.

@crazycurlz Legislation would be possible holding parents civilly and even criminally responsible if they pass, (in writing) on it and their child develops the illness.

They could also be required to register children in a private school that doesn't have the vax requirement or home school and maintain a grade average of a certain level or face fines etc, if their child/children are barred from public school.

If people are creative, the public can still be protected without violating personal bodily sovereignty rights. Also, a medical 'age of consent' could be established wherein a child above a certain age could assert the wish to be treated/vaccinated regardless of parental wishes; kind of like teens electing to have abortions without parental consent in recognition of their bodily rights.

@Silver1wun you understand how serious this issue is and yet you state everyone has the right to make decisions for their own bodies and then make two opposing statements 1. ALTERNATIVES EXIST (not true) if an individual is found to place society in jeopardy and, 2. in the latter post, ...'legislation would be possible...if people were creative' which is just conjecture.
This issue is not about personal choice. (i.e. No one can force parents to vaccinate their children.) This is about ignorance and fear. Wilful ignorance, rejection of authority, rejecting systems that have been in place for years because they work. People reject vaccinations because like you they revert to the same irrelevant argument you use. And this dynamic is steeped in ignorance and pervasive in our culture. In the big scheme of things, it's the same ignorance that got Trump elected.
We lock horns yet again.

@crazycurlz Everything you stated is sensible, in context, based on your assertions being so. I don't agree that they all are. And there seems to be confusion about 1 and 2. The alternatives to which I referred relate directly to 2. We are a self governing people. Alternatives can be discussed, recognized and via laws placed in a state of available existence instead of abstract existence as probabilities.

It (also about 'what is so' is very much a personal choice issue when society violates it's own canon, going to war with the individual, as a means of solving conflicts that can be approached in other ways. Rejection of 'authority'? It is more like rejection of power, especially when that power is exercised in ways that are antithetical to our system, by not respecting bodily sovereignty of the individual. By that kind of alleged authority, a simple preponderance of public opinion could force people to have abortions or forbid them entirely; could force people to accept blood, or perhaps, even surrender it for the 'public good'.

Strategies are entirely free within canon - rules of the game - that are sacrosanct, until or unless fundamentally changed; which in our case is called constitutional amending.

This isn't the thread in which to discuss 'ignorance' alleged to have caused the election outcome, but the other side of that coin that doesn't necessarily dispute your point could be the wisdom of not electing his opponent. We, non-party affiliated people in the center of the electorate ALWAYS determine election outcomes, no matter what kind of crappy candidates are nominated by the partisans.

@Silver1wun working in the health fields, it's clear to me that this is not a personal choice issue and it is about ignorance and dissemination of alternative facts. The evidence-based information, the benefits of vaccination far outweigh the incredibly rare incident of negative outcomes and yet, ignorance has fanned the fears of the willfully ignorant. You and I will have to agree to disagree yet again. As far as the difference between 'authority' and 'power'...semantics. You say tomato I say tomato. It's distraction.
I leave this argument at agree to disagree and as always, pleased to run you. This was an excellent post by Palindromeman, was it not? Be well, Silver1wun.

@crazycurlz As you say, I can agree that we disagree. The United States Constitution isn't an exercise in semantics; recent partisan political pressures to ignore it notwithstanding.

I don't disagree with you that benefits FAR outweigh. It's an opinion we share that is well founded but that does not trump civil rights..

Daunting as it can be, people are entitled to their ignorance AND their error. If not, the majority that fears atheists are Hell-bound and going to get the rest of the world damned could force us into Jesus camps.

It is about what majorities can and cannot legitimately do. If laws run counter to public good because of advancements in knowledge, there are provisions, also requiring a majority, for amending our Constitution. (canon)

We may not, for example, treat hypertension by drawing blood in hopes that less of it will reduce pressure. Even though eventually it will. There are other means and more discovered all the time that work within Nature's rules of the game.

@crazycurlz Well, I didn't really expect it to be the goat f*ck that it turned into, but we are all free thinkers so I think in the end it kind of worked out. Kind of.

@Palindromeman We're free thinkers today at least. Never can be sure when a righteous 'majority' might provide compelling evidence that some kinds of free thinking present a threat to prevalent 'right-mindedness' and advocate for free thoughts to be silenced and safe spaces created to protect the faithful.

@Silver1wun Free thought? Yeah, young whipper snapper, I remember that. Come down and have a root beer with me and I'll tell you about the good old days. <sighs> I don't even know what actual discourse looks like any more.

@Silver1wun now that Palindromeman has been brave enough to jump in the middle and separate us, I feel fired up as if I should continue!
Just kidding. This was a good discussion, helped me hone my thoughts. Pman, Silver1wun and I look like adversaries and ARE but sometimes the adversaries are sheep in wolves clothing...not the enemy (awww...did I really say that about wolves...) I step down.

@crazycurlz Ardent defense is motivated by love. Hatred shows caring and disappointment. It's an amplified form of anger. Indifference is the opposite of love; as it remains silent and cares not. O.K. here come the goats, sheep and wolves! Yikes!

@Silver1wun lol. anyone else and I'd say 'nice' but you and me...there's a fig leaf in here somewhere. hahaha you are good people Silver. Have a good night

there are far more proven toxins in Monsanto crops, more likely the reasons for autism, savants and neuro illnesses, including MS, ALS, etc.

Those sites do not publish accurate information. Here is an analysis: [academic.oup.com]
There are exhaustive studies to shown that there is no link.

Doctors Paid To Give Vacines?
Autism Connection?

Too damn bad it's not up to us if we want measles or not.

it's up to you if you get vaccinated or not, I can't make you do it.