Oh look, the gaslighter is back. Well I think a final report is long overdue. Our victimized minority communities deserve it. Did you know up to 50% of the loss is not even being reported in figures of economic damage as many businesses were uninsured?

@Flowerwall Calling me "gaslighter" means nothing. You know, because it's not true.
It's just your perception based on our previous disagreements.

Our victimized minority communities already know, and that is what most of the protests were about last year. No "final report" is going to matter.
Besides, every time the matter has come up, particularly during the past year, there have been a whole lot of white people who have sworn up and down that it isn't true.
Even though it is.
Reports aren't going to make a difference.
Ending racist practices will.
Improving education will.
Opening economic opportunities to everyone will.
Rejecting racist attitudes will.
Calling out ignorant bullshit will.

@KKGator I know and you may reject knowing because you have also displayed narcissistic tendencies in breif conversations we have had, that you attempted to gaslight previously with me instead of sticking to facts on the matter at hand. I can detect that in you and no amount of denial on your part will make it go away. When you can remain fact based we can talk. Other than that, no.

"Our victimized minority communities already know" So they already know? What does THAT mean? How do they know? What are they going off of? This occurred over 26 states! So you are saying not only do minority communities get victimized now they deserve delayed or skipped prioitization in federal law enforcement follow up. UNREAL.

@Flowerwall flowerwall, you wouldn't recognize a fact if it fell onyou, resorting to calling names simply ruins any credibility you once might have had. You are nothing but a closet Drump-Lover & apologist for him.

@AnneWimsey Facts - name calling= productive conversation

@Flowerwall accusing someone of "gaslighting" is peachy-keen, though, right?

@Flowerwall Once again, you have attempted to extrapolate my comments to a ridiculous and false conclusion.
You really are part of the problem, and not the solution.

@Flowerwall “I can detect that in you”...this kind of thing could only be done in person, if at all. And...“no amount of denial on your part will make it go away”...this sounds like you need to hold your adversary hostage until they agree to your assumption! This is not discussing issues to get a better understanding...there is too much ‘threatening tactics’ taking place on your part. Who’s mind are you attempting to change anyway? Yours or the people’s mind on this thread.

@Freedompath Don't worry about it. You are saying things that clearly you don't know what I am referencing. This was regards to a previous conversation where KKGator used gaslighting on me and then behaved as though the gaslighting was genuine concern. It's no big deal to me, I really don't care, but I also am not going to hold conversation if it continues. "Hold hostage" and "threatening tactics" sounds like you just got done watching a suspense movie! Do you willingly engage with those who gaslight? Do you think I should allow others to do that to me, and never acknowledge it? Please advise.

@Flowerwall I have followed Gator for as long as I have been on here and I can honestly say, she is not known for ‘gaslighting!’ She could have sternly challenged you, or gotten angry, but that is not gaslighting. And, no...you should not allow anyone to ‘gaslight’ you!

I don’t ingauge with anyone that hits ‘below the belt’ (they call me names, attack my writing or denigrate me in any way). Now sometimes, people must get frustrated at me because I cannot see their point of view or I simply can’t change my mind even when they have given me a ton of facts and reasons. Nobody is to blame here...we are simply at an impasse on something. And sometimes this hurts! Maybe, trying to grasp ‘truth’ and learn the ways of people works like this. And, it is more difficult on this ‘web site’ because we don’t have a person before us...in person! I think it is not possible to think of all the things we need to say or ask in writing. But, we do gain benefits with trying to figure out issues in writing. Learn what you can use and express yourself as honestly as you can, but don’t take abuse for your sincere approach. But, if we lose our cool with anyone, they are likely to hit back. I don’t consider that abuse (even if it stings).

@Flowerwall I don’t have TV and rarely watch movies...I am a documentary and Science or Nature lecture, sort of person. I do follow lots of news and sometimes commentaries by people that I trust to be rational and thoughtful. I do all this on my I-phone.

@Freedompath I'm not worried about KKGator because I have already seen the response and I know how it goes. Kkgator may not realize their own actions, but it's not the end of the world. Even in this discussion above, says I've made a falsr conclusion. Did I? Kkgstor said "Our victimized minority communities already know, and that is what most of the protests were about last year. No "final report" is going to matter." I think a final report matters VERY MUCH. We need to know a lot more. What is really going here? We need to know so this gets fixed.

@Flowerwall then study human behavior yourself. Humans are complex and simple all at the same time. I doubt that all the answers will ever be found. But, if each person finds his/her own answers...as to what makes him/her tick and how to harness our assets and how to manage our emotions...then the world will be a more harmonious place.

@Freedompath I'm going to be honest I think a lot of this violence is going back to the media. I blame the media. Of course these cases are bad. Who watched George Floyd video for first time and said "yeah, that's okat. No problem". Noone I heard of. But the fact is the media keeps talking about it and people feel under threat. And the media keeps pushing "white supremacist" - is this really a thing beyond fringe people? Please let's see numbers that show evidence. I don't think numbers exist. I think it's based on lone actions of fringe people with fringe ideas.

And then beyond the media is the people themselves. Again, who exactly is behind this? Was this all a result of people feeling threatened, or is there MORE to the story? We have to start figuring all of this out. We need ANSWERS. We can't self-implode like this in crisis. There is no us vs. them. For all of this talk of racism and white supremacy, there were no race based physical attacks on people in the protests. Having society breakdown into mass civil disorder was the biggest threat people of all colors faced. It has to prevented. We need to understand why people were destoying communities. And I know the pandemic didn't make this easier, but we have to know. If it truly is people feeling threatened because of the media and there aren't underlying facts to support there is indeed an increased white supremacist threat, then the media HAS to start toning it down. If it really is the media then the Pres. either Biden now or Trump under his term are not/did not help enough to dial them back. I am never one for censorship, but you can't allow a constant stream of biased reporting that is affecting people psychologically in negative ways. It's a public health threat. And it's even worse, in my mind, than that.

@Flowerwall Yep. Blame everything on the media. It's ALL their fault.

You're looking to be convinced of things that nearly everyone else already know are true.
Systemic racism is real. Reports on it have already been written and released.
Nothing changed.

You appear to perceive reality through a very narrow prism.
White supremacists are real and have been a huge problem for a very long time.
The media didn't create them.
Anti-semites have been a huge problem for centuries. The media did not create them either.

Just because you don't know or understand these things doesn't make them any less real.
It also doesn't mean that I tried to "gaslight" you.
Again, your perception is not necessarily the reality.

@KKGator Numbers please. I want to see in numbers somewhere, this reflected in PRESENT TIMES- "White supremacists are real and... a huge problem..." I already know and fully accept it was a huge problem in the past. I also know people, Leftists, are constantly trying to leverage that fear against political opponents now too.

@Freedompath Thank you for defending me. I appreciate your input, as always.

@Flowerwall It's called "history". Not the whitewashed (pun intended) stuff we were all taught in school, but the actual events that occurred.
Read about all the violence against people of color from even before the Revolutionary War. The rise of the Klan during Reconstruction, in the North, as well as the South.

There is also a long history of racism within the US military, and all law enforcement entities, at every level.

The internet can be an extremely useful tool for looking up history.
The sources that are based in education are often the most reliable.

As far as what happened to George Floyd, the media isn't responsible for the reaction to that.
People who were present recorded what happened to him. The media investigated, as is their job to do. They reported what they found.
Same with Breonna Taylor. Same with every other unarmed black person killed by the police. This is not new behavior.

The reason the media keeps talking about these things is because we all need to know what is happening in OUR name.
It is their job to tell us.

Do some media outlets distort their reporting?
Of course.
It's up to us, as individuals, to be able to discern when people are trying to push a particular narrative or agenda.
It's called critical thinking, and it's our responsibility to develop that.

@KKGator As I said, I will never deny that racism has been a big problem in this country for a very long time. But if you tell me those same situations are present now and Democrat policies are always going to be the answer, or that the media hasn't played a highly destructive role as of late, I don't think you are telling the truth. If this nation was such a racist hell hole why would minorities ever even consider coming here? Because it's NOT.

And you tell me, if we already have this inner national turmoil, how does increased immigration help minorities and working class people? Shouldn't we start focusing on our internal policies and building up from the inside. There is obviously a huge problem with feeling there is racial tension at the current time. What role do immigrants play in that? I've seen immigrants being racist. Don't think that doesn't happen. And I'm not anti-immigrant. Just realistic. I'm not saying "no immigrants, ever". But let's work on ourselves, our people, at current time. If you don't look at the events of last year and see there is a huge sense of threat and division you are wrong. The right reacted to the sitiation with Capitol riot, so all we are doing is getting wotse.

@Flowerwall I never said one word about democratic policies fixing anything.
I'm not even a democrat.

I didn't say there isn't division. However, I am saying that there are a whole lot of white people who have NO idea just how bad it is for people of color in this country.
Whether it's through deliberate or inadvertent ignorance, they simply do not know.
White privilege is a very REAL thing, whether they all realize it or not.

I never brought up immigration, but I will say that unless a person is 100% Native American, their ancestors came to this country from somewhere else.
And not always legally either.

People have come here from every part of the world because of the "promise" of a better life.
That can mean a great many things to different people.
They don't always find what they hoped to. This country often doesn't live up to the hype.
Hell, it doesn't always live up to the hype for people who were/are born here.

There are many white people who really have a problem with becoming a minority in this country. Something I find particularly messed up because white people invaded this continent and took it from the indigenous people of color who were already here.

As far as this nation being a "racist hell hole", it was founded on racism, and it still is mired in systemic racism. It IS a racist hell hole, unless you're white and it doesn't affect you.

Just because you are (for whatever reason)
unaware of issues, facts, and events, does not make them any less real or valid.

The division is being stoked by those who have convinced some white people that everyone wanting equality is a dire threat to them. Those who participated in the attempted insurrection believe the lies they've been told.
They must be held accountable.
So must every single elected official who supported those lies.

@KKGator " It IS a racist hell hole, unless you're white and it doesn't affect you." Well then STOP ALL IMMIGRATION IMMEDIATELY. Noone should ever want to live in a racist hell hole. And making the decision to immigrate to a racist hell hole is a sign they are not making reasonable, sound decisions.

This previous paragraph is said in sarcasm. I don't think we shoukd stop all immigration, but drastically reduce, yes right now and until we can describe ourselves as "not a racist hell hole" by a very, very large majority of our current citizens. And until we know it is not all seething under the surface and ready to break out in forms if mass civil unrest. There is a big problem. Do you really think anything the current govetnment is doing will FIX this? I don't even see any top government people properly addressing the underlying concerns AT ALL. They focus on the pandemic, giving aid, what about the societal discord that is unrelated to that? If you want to make the arguement that the biggest threat to minorities is excessive force by police, do so, and then I will proceed to compketely dismantle it.

Also, wherever you yourself live where you are constantly witnessing racist hell holes, you should move. You are not living in a good place. Tell everyone you know, it's a racist hell hole and move somewhere in the country where it's a well integrated community. Racist hell holes are no place to be.

@KKGator well said!

@Flowerwall Once again, you show you do not understand the dynamics of multiple situations.

Living anywhere that is "well integrated" is no guarantee of racial equality.
Ending racist mindsets goes far beyond what any government administration can put into policy.
Law enforcement is rife with racism and many of their training practices reinforce that.
You cannot dismantle the truth.

@KKGator, @Flowerwall racism is complicated...it may rear it’s ugly head only on occasion, then die back down. Not all people want to leave their roots and move some place else. You report that notion is if any person could just give up their work/career/family/friends because there is racism and move someplace else. Most people want to solve problems and create a peaceful community! After all it is not like we are some third world country, that lacks education and economic resources.

You put too much emphasis on outside forces leading you astray. Are you not aware, that we all must choose what we expose ourselves to. ‘Garbage in garbage out’. this is true for us as well as computers. When there is information that goes against our grain, we must find a way to extricate ourselves from it. We can physically move ourselves to a safer place...we learn that other’s distortions of reality...are not about us and allow them to walk on by! We can use our brains to solve our problems, not guns or rage (which is only a temporary relief from frustration or fear).

It seems that you view people as ‘them wanting to take over?’ I have never observed in your writings, your thoughts about people wanting to be safe and not starve to death. Immigrants coming from improvised areas, are searching for an opportunity to LIVE a life. Mexicans don’t come here wanting to take what you/I have. They are some of the hardest working people that I have ever met. They work for ‘peanuts’ and grateful for even that. Should we begrudge them even survival wages? They should be paid the wage that is allocated for ‘that’ work! I know Mexicans from all walks of life, and I have been enriched just by knowing them. A more affluent Mexican friend from Monterey Mex...once told me how her maid bought one brick at a time and finally got enough to build herself a house! Could you do that? I have never known any Mexicans that are rapist and murderers! And now I live among them and I have never even been informed of any in this area. They are the greatest of neighbors! Could you be jealous of that? Would your neighbors say about you that you are a great neighbor?

I am wondering if all this support for militias, is your effort to justify your own membership. Are you a current member of a militia?

@KKGator "Living anywhere that is "well integrated" is no guarantee of racial equality." You sound from your language like you have seen a lot of racism firsthand. That's not good. A lot places people live, comfortably happily side by side. You should live it.

"You cannot dismantle the truth." So I think this means you are saying excessive force by police is the biggest challenge facing minoritirs. We can start a new thread and debate it at a later point.

@KKGator, @Flowerwall all humans develop at different rates and at different speeds...it has everything to do with our/their brains. Have they always been in a safe and secure place and not unlucky with head injuries? Were they born to a mother/father that were not themselves under lots of stress? And then...we have people at different ages, struggling or thriving...life is complicated, no one can wave a magic wand and magically fix a society... surely you must know this? We can however ‘fix our/yourself,’ and then you/me and the world is all the better for it! AND, then...we may be able to help someone else to become his better self.

@Flowerwall You keep making assumptions about what I think.
You take one statement and extrapolate it to a conclusion that I certainly didn't intend.

@Freedompath I agree. There are all sorts of circumstances people face.
Which is also why there are no cut and dried answers to practically anything.
I appreciate your perspective.
You are far wiser, and generally calmer, than I.

@KKGator You are trying to convince me that racism exists. It does, I agree. I disagree with you on other specific points relating to the topic, as evidenced above, but I am done debating with you for now.

Since you are not a Dem, what political position do you support currently, and how will it best assist those who experience structural racism? I am very interested to hear your take on things.

@Freedompath You don't have to convince me about positive attributes of Mexican people, I already know. We can pick this debate back up at some point, right now, have to end.

And no, not a militia member!

@KKGator ...just different, every perspective is needed, just like all people are different. I have always found you to be as wise and for more forthright! But, thanks for the kind words.

@KKGator, @Flowerwall

@Freedompath I confess, I'm not one to fully understand emojis. I think because they are so small, is it - "happy pride", alternating with "just seen a ghost"? Sorry not I'm quite with it in these things.

@Flowerwall you seem to me to have a grasp on some things and others...that need some work on your part. I am a little short on patience on that part

@Freedompath Yes emojis are not my strong spot and I need glasses!

@Flowerwall sorry about that...I thought they were a waste of time in the past...but sometimes when I run out of words or have no words...I see they can be handy! If you only need reading glasses, they can be bought from drug store or wal-mart...I can even use ‘Dollar Tree’ glasses! I have had prescriptions a couple of times and I find they were no better than my cheap ones. I happen to learn that my eye sight is constantly changing for close up work...so I have a large verity of glasses! Lol. My distance eye sight is fine.

Yeah, I thought about that comment and considered it to be a nonsensical statement. I think he meant something different than what he said. I think he meant PRIMARY FOCUS on multi-culturalism above being AMERICAN. Of course we're multi-cultural, duh!

Pompeo’s remark was insulting to all Americans. He should get out of that religious prison that he is in! The worst part is what a high post he held? He does not represent the American people...only his pious self!

@Freedompath Well Joe Biden's "composed largest voter fraud organization in US history" was disquieting to anyone who believes we live in a fair democracy ( and that's the current PRESIDENT who said it), but I will forgive the mistake in expression. It does happen from time to time.

@Flowerwall now...in all due respect...this is beyond the pale! Only a FOOL could believe that 50 states filled with Democrats and Republicans all got together and allowed their votes to go for Biden even when a little less than half went for trump! Poles are monitored by dems and repubs...when the votes are counted they have cameras and more equal...dems and repubs, monitoring And there is a COMPLEX system in place to make sure all ballets are asigned to one signature. Now, if you believe this was fixed (after being recounted 2/3 times)...then I suggest you take a class in ‘critical thinking.’ This many checks and balancing would weed out fraud... because that many different sets of people are not corrupt. Not even in America!

@Flowerwall what a lying nasty sack of CRAP you are! You remind me strongly of someone....wait...orange skin, weird hair, incoherent lies incessantly slopping out of his mouth....

@Freedompath @AnneWimsey Remember this formula:
"Facts - name calling= productive conversation"

@Flowerwall you don't consider calling someone a"gaslighter" reprehensible? Alrighty then!

@Flowerwall I cannot follow you clearly, because you are convoluted with your ideas. Maybe you are sitting on the fence...trying to figure out where you stand? But, as soon as you decide...argue from that viewpoint. You seem to be arguing from both sides...and I doubt that a person can be that split? I am puzzled as to why you are not comfortable offering up anything in your bio about yourself. Are you hiding from something? Are you not able to stand firmly in your own shoes and know that is authentic and acceptable? Just wondering.

@AnneWimsey ...this is a bit harsh...sometimes people have not fit into ‘theirselves’ yet! I think we need more evidence that this is a person trying to create havoc?

@AnneWimsey, @Freedompath

If your concern about minorities is deeper then lip service , remember "Businesses and neighborhoods where protests have turned violent will have to contend not just with the aftermath of the protests, but with multiple aggravating factors that will make recovery even more difficult. ...In another study that looked at the progress of neighborhoods affected by civil disorder in 1968, Marcus Casey and Bradley Hardy also found long-term, if not permanent, negative impacts."

Does this MATTER to you? This is very bad for the ENTIRE community for a very long time. Do you GENUINELY CARE?

@Flowerwall I am not in any way shape or form...in favor of rioting. I do however believe in peaceful protest! And as we remember during the ‘peaceful’ civil right marches, they got violent, not from protesters but from...protesters being denigrated and even beat trying to stop their peaceful protest! Are you saying people should not defend themselves when they are peacefully protesting?

@Flowerwall So now you are talking about the "biggest voter fraud in this century" and also mention a Fair democracy." This is all Trump koolaide and under Trump we had no democracy.

@Freedompath @DenoPenno " I cannot follow you clearly, because you are convoluted with your ideas. Maybe you are sitting on the fence...trying to figure out where you stand? But, as soon as you decide...argue from that viewpoint. You seem to be arguing from both sides...and I doubt that a person can be that split?"

Did you say this because of what I said about Biden? Let me clear this up, I do not think Biden personally or the VAST MAJORITY of Democrats are involved in voter fraud. A successful fraud would be carried out by a very small, selevtive group behind the scenes, if it did occur at all. I do not have firm evidence YES or NO. I have questions that were left in mind from various hearings, etc.

@Flowerwall ok...I got it! Stay tuned...the evidence up to this point...shows no irregularities! I heard people reporting with all kinds of positions about the Nov voting who said it was one of the most securest in our history. I tend to believe this...as it would take a great many people hiding in plain sight to mess up this voting system. It has an electronic trail and a separate paper trail. It is find if you are still not convinced...wait for more evidence, if there is any, it will be big news and will get reported!

Who are you refering to? The extremists in the summer or at the Capitol? I can understand delay with Capitol, it hasn't been a month. This summer? It feels like it just got skipped over unless destruction in minority communities is not a primary concern of government.

@Sticks48 Well it already seems focus is on the Capitol now. Like it was skipped.

One thing bothers me (among lots of others). When they shout "freedom," how do they define "freedom?" I saw this: According to the Magna Carta, the definition of "freedom" is as follows: The right to do anything you want SO LONG AS IT DOESN'T HARM OTHERS. So that's a legal definition. Do we have that here in any of our legal documents?

@think-beyond I can’t remember, but what I want to know is why the extremists need to carry their guns when they make these pronouncements about ‘their freedom?’ The other side aren’t bringing guns, to an argument! This is a much deeper problem than...these people not being free...they are psychically imprisoned. Until they understand that, they will never be free.

@Freedompath Listen there was an American black militia going around armed at one point. I think they were more Left side. But guess what, we all have 2A rights! As long as people don't go around shooting, they are within their constitutional rights!

@Flowerwall would you believe that if you came to my house with a gun to discuss something that I would ask you to leave. If you brought a gun to a community discussion, I would leave without saying one word! A gun is meant to ‘kill’ ...if not at that moment...then it represents the notion that...’if you want hear what I have to say, then I can shoot up the place OR YOU!’ The very fact that the person with a gun can’t be heard...is because he believes that he has NEVER been heard and want ever be taken seriously. This is the stunted development of a 5 yr old. This is what/where he/she needs to work on, so that he can learn how to behave in a grown up world.

@Flowerwall I have no idea if that ‘black militia group’ was left or right! We still don’t need them! But, we normally don’t see the left needing militia groups...we use our brains to solve problems! Killing just causes more problems than it ever solves.

@Freedompath I don't know if rhe militia I mentioned was Left or Right, it doesn't matter in my mind. They appeared to be organized and not just pointing guns, and as long as the people with guns are orderly it's not a problem. Militia's are militias, black, white, right, left, if they are orderly and follow the law, it's not a problem. We have 2A rights here. I would rather see order than disorder, and whether you like it or not, guns do help maintain order. If you look at certain countries where gun ownership is restricted, innocent people are often forced to be victims. Also it looks like the militia is mainly veterans, so they are experienced. I was surprised at the idea of only black people as part of it, as I would think most regions of the country are more mixed groups whether family, friends, neighbors, but maybe not. I know that is not true in every place. The militia group was in the South.

@Flowerwall I guess you did not notice that I will be 81 in 2 more months? I can remember when hardly anyone owned a gun, except the police. When shootings occurred they were a big deal and we had very few by police or citizens. We didn’t have militias showing at court houses with guns, or people walking around the mall with guns strapped to their hips or people in parking lots with ‘long guns!’ This I have experienced over my lifetime! My personal thought on the matter of guns is...why/how do you feel so small before your fellowman, that you must be armed with a deadly weapon, just in case he acts up somehow? Are you expecting a person to become a barbarian and attack you? When I see a human in front of me, I expect him to be similar to me...mostly civilized! If he needs help I will give it, if it is I, in need of help, I hope he gives me a hand...not mistake something I said or did...then pull out his gun and shoot me because he/she ‘feared for their life!’ I just don’t have that kind of fear in my nature, for my fellowman! But, I DO know how to gauge danger and adjust myself to that accordingly. I have personally known too many lives that were ruined, when a person was shot with a gun! There is a ripple effect that can travel for generations. I could never learn to love anything that diminishes or kills my fellowman.

@Flowerwall vets are trained warriors...they are expected to kill people In war without a second thought, then come home and become civilized! Have you never been around veterans that have PTSD, or other mental problems after they return from war. Most vets that I know were traumatized for the remainder of their lives after going to war. Namely my brother who was in the Vietnam war, who could hardly talk about his experience and who died at 59. There is no romance in war...it is horrible and people are mostly mentally crippled who must experience it. Human beings deserve more than the prospect of being filled full of bullet holes!

@Freedompath I agree, war is not good. But there is nothing that can be done to stop the groups and these are their rights.

@Flowerwall why did we suddenly have these groups that ‘nothing can be done to stop? This sounds to me like gangs, with a different name. They too, claim ‘their rights’...with force and death if necessary! But, this is not mainstream society. They are on the fringe of society, because they claim their ‘rights’ with a gun...in your face if necessary! I am not interested in keeping company with a person like that and just maybe ‘they’ like it like that...I believe we are equal as humans...‘they’ must believe something else.

@Freedompath I don't think you intend it that way, but comparing a trained militia composed of veterans to a gang, like a street gang, is an insult to the militia, in my mind. As long as they abide by the law, there is no threat. I understand not everyone feels comfortable around guns, but there are surely worse options. You will never erase guns from society. The more restricted guns are, the more it will become slanted in favor of those who do not abide by the law.

@Flowerwall from your ‘mouth’ to the ‘social order!’ Yes, I intended to compare militias to gangs. Same composition...people banding together because they are not fitting into the community from which they reside. They feel alone, needing to belong and they behave as if they know better what the rules ought to be! They make their own rules...and they can be enforced with a gun, and we all know that guns can kill us! And as for families of a militia person...it came to my attention at the time of the Capital riots...that my 55 yr old son is in a militia. His life has been a struggle with addiction and is a near outsider in his own family even before the riots. And now, I have the added horror of one day hearing that my son is in prison or dead. Neither of which I would ever want for my son. There is no way to convey my heartache over my son feeling so defenseless that he would willing put himself in more danger. Only a mother(and maybe a father) could know my pain! I want my son to have joy and peace in his life, but this will only bring him and his family sorrow! Think on that if you will?

@Freedompath If you want we can copy parts of this post in to another category, like family or mental health and duscuss further.

@Flowerwall my dear...I try to stay focused on one idea at a time. I have 25 yrs of psychotherapy under my belt not the mention all the studying that I have done on my own (while others were having fun times). And I have 55 yrs experience with my son...addiction is a hard path and even professionals fail sometimes. I have learned to live with how things are, since most are out of my control. Because a mother never stops loving their child, no matter how old they get! Thanks for offering your ideas...I will just watch for your post and work from there. It is best to work with what appears in our everyday life...when it comes up and needing to find expression.

@Freedompath Well I meant if there were anythings you wanted to talk about more, but you would need to tell me that specifically which part . I certainly can't fix anything, but I'm sure it's not easy in your position.

I wound up reading and learning more about riots and now I almost wish I had never inquired into learning more about the topic. It was described in one place as, "one of the most terrifying forces of humanity". This is why we need to understand all of this much better. However this most recent riot, when you remove the dollar costs, focus on deaths, I don't know injury numbers, it is not nearly as violent as some in our history, so this part is good. And possibly riots will never be completely eliminated.

@Flowerwall I focus my energy and my discussions on what resonates with something inside me...at the moment it is brought up...on this site. I try and carry that ‘focus,’ to a kind of conclusion and then I’m finished with it. That same issue may appear at a later time for some other reason, then I will address it again. But, having said that...it want be like the previous discussion. It will be based on new and different information.
At the moment I am not interested in the riots except to learn if my son (might) have gone there. That part is unlikely, but on the other hand I only learned that he has most likely join some nationalist group, by accident. And since I have confronted him about it, he has not say a word...not even in his own defense. I know him well enough to know...that I am right and he can’t own up to his part in some off-the-wall group, because he knows...this is not a good thing. You see...when people must hide who they are or what they are doing...they know ‘it’ is not acceptable. I intend to leave him with his ‘actions,’ until that time that he can defend himself or report that he has re-examined his actions and made a change. I must do this for my own sanity (this effects our physical health too...especially for old people), I can’t be worried constantly about him going to jail or being killed...as this is high risk behavior! Better that I have no contact. I am not happy about this but I can live with it for now.

@Freedompath I meant to get back to this sooner, but I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to tell you. It does sound like a tough spot for your son, and you are also saying it causes stress, but I don't feel there is anymore I can tell you that you would find helpful. You agreed when KKGator said I did not understand dynamics of multiple situations. You've said, "you are convoluted with your ideas". So in this sense, I can tell you have already disqualified my opinions as having anything that you personally find worthwhile. So that's it then, good luck in your issues and I do wish the best for family harmony.

@Flowerwall when I said ‘convoluted’ I meant that you were not adequately, explaining your position ...sticking to an issue until all thoughts were exhausted on that ‘single’ matter. I have difficulty following an idea, when other outside issues are mixed in, that does not pertain to the ‘single idea,’ that is being discussed. I can’t give you an example at the moment because I would need to review our messages and I am not up for that at the moment.
I commend you for thinking ‘it’ out before you wrote this post. And, I will tell you that I did not dismiss all that you said. And, on your offer to help about my son, I tried to explain that I have put that to rest for now...I am out of words and emotional energy to discuss what ‘might’ be going on at his end. I need to wait and hear how he accounts for himself. In certain situations where there is no clear path...I completely turn it loose and let it be, I don’t torment myself over what is out of my hands. I am only a mother who wanted her children to be content and have love to guide them. I simply cannot use what you might have to offer at this time. It is not that your information is worthless...I am not where I can use it. Maybe you have heard the saying...’when the student is ready, the teacher appears!’ I have found this to be true. Thanks for your reply and offer to help.

@Freedompath Your welcome, and truly best wishes through it all.

You know what the more I question this, the more I look in to how the response was, I am becoming more and more convinced there are racists all over the place and they are so well camflouged now you would never be able to guess who they are. And because of the double standards they employ and the failure to acknowledge reality, the more pernicious their racism is. And I don't mean to fear monget to minorities, I do apologize if it has that effect. I mean politically minorities really need to question these responses from our government. First of all who, what communities sustained the mist damage? Was it mainly mi ority communities? If so, demand MORE from this government! You have a right to demand MORE. I mean in peaceful terms. Everyone will support that.