Pheromones! Not strange at all.

This does seem to be evidence for attraction not being a choice.

@Fibonacci1618 I'm skeptical that it is pheromones. I link my man's smell to my feelings. One guy was a laborer, and I came to associate his sweat with him, hence erotic. And yes, he showered when he got home, but I didn't want aftershave or cologne. Happens with every man I've been with.

But pheromones do play a role in that. I have found myself to be wildly attracted to men from their smell alone, before I know anything about them. In one instance, after I got to know the person I disliked nearly everything about him, but his smell still drove me crazy! (I am also talking about his body odor, and not aftershave, cologne, or deodorant.)

@EllenDale Look into pheromones in animals and how they react and enhance sexual desire. It will remove your unconscious biases.

@Fibonacci1618 i know about pheromones to a certain degree but i need to study up on them. I still have a lot of questions. Thanks

@EllenDale One of my favorite channels on YouTube is The Scishow , all about science in a short fast and witty presentation. Here's there presentation on pheromones... I think it's 10 mins long.

@meta4me I've had the scent alone thing too, and not clicking w/my nose is a non starter.
There are men who could bottle the stuff. In fact, I knew it was the end when my dh began to smell bad, because he never did, even after a long day sweating his donkey off in the field. He had to brace himself on my shoulder, the lingering odor was heartbreaking. It wasn't him anymore.

Symmetry may be beautiful, but it isn't always sexy.

@Sticks48 Yup. Same with personality. If friends describe so eone as an asshole, I take their word for it. Just as when a man uses the c-word, I stay away.

@EllenDale l don't pay much attention to other folks opinion of other people. Sometimes people bad mouth other people out of revenge and not an honest assessment of that person. Assholes are in the eye of the beholder. I know Trump is an asshole, but there are those folks that think he is great.

@Sticks48 true, but I'm not sure his wife is in that group ?

@EllenDale ☺

@Sticks48 RE: an asshole. Also, they were his friends, not mine.. They know him best, and from what I observed, they were right. Should I take his word for it if he tells me his friends call him an asshole?

@EllenDale Sure, why not? ?

@Sticks48 ?

@Sticks48 I have an asshole. Don't need 2. Soon, time will tell.

@EllenDale LOL! Good luck with that. ?

Are you saying we can choose to be attracted or not attracted to someone, or not?

@KenG Let's change the variable to fear. Fear is a strong emotion. Without learning to overcome fear most of us stay in our set mindset about whatever the origin of that fear is. We can change what ever we want. Intuition is a different variable. It tells you I should be fearful of BLANK. Knowledge and growth changed it to: I should be cautious of BLANK, and experience tells you: it was silly of me to fear BLANK. This can be true of attraction. If you only allow yourself to experience a certain type of attraction aka the quick chemical realise of sexual desire for example, then you never really learn to be attracted to someone for more than that, as an origin. But if you learn to appreciate, say: intelligence, then you can find yourself being attracted to someone who isn't in a social norm physically your type. Does that help?

@Fibonacci1618 Interesting idea: comparing fear and attraction. Both are instinctual. And yes, you can overcome your fear of something. I will have to think on this one...

@Fibonacci1618 I think they may not be useful comparisons because one is a protection mechanism and the other a procreational evolutionary mechanism. With a lot of work we could overcome our fear of anything. I can’t imagine being attracted to everything or everyone. I don’t think this comparison works.

@KenG I understand your hesitation in the thought experiment and why it doesn't work for you. Although, there are people who are called sapiosexuals who only get aroused via intellectual stimulation. Your use of the word procreate is different from arousal. Just saying that it reflects your heteronormative perspective. Don't get me wrong, I can find a man intriguing, even handsome but that doesn't mean I want anything in my butt. That's jumping from arousal to sexuality. What I am saying is that it is possible. Appreciation of someone's energy and finding it attractive doesn't have to equate sexual desire, but sexual desire tends to be veiwed as "what can I get out of it" instead of "what can share or learn from it"

@Fibonacci1618 But this doesn’t seem to be evidence that attraction is a choice

@KenG ok

Is this a conscious decision though, or a natural phenomenon that takes place? It would seem like a useful evolutionary tool we have developed to stop us getting into trouble.

@KenG I think it can be both. For example: Knowing what the consequences of "getting into trouble" might be (perhaps from past experiences) one might decide to not be attracted to attractive people that happen to be in relationships. In effect (over time) this might become the way that person operates without needing to give too much deliberation to each like situation...

When you said: think one can be "not attracted" to an attractive person.
If you’re not attracted to someone then they are (by definition) not attractive.

@KenG What I was saying is that though I could say that a certain woman is pretty, I could also not necessarily be attracted to her. Again, this might be on the merits of knowing that she is off limits to me by virtue of her being married or in a serious relationship. But to make this point another way- I am straight and am thus not attracted to guys. At the same time in trying to put a word in for a buddy with a certain girl I could say to her of this male friend "he is a good looking guy". In doing so I have just explained that someone I am not attracted to is attractive....

@KingofHarts How do you know she’s pretty?

@KenG common standards

@KingofHarts If you find her pretty then you’re obviously attracted to her. That’s was pretty means.

@KenG another example- a beautiful blonde haired blued eyed 5 foot eleven runway model. I can say she is a pretty woman. Nevertheless, l am attracted to brunettes who are typically 5 7 and under. Thus, I am not attracted the 5 11 woman though I can say she is pretty.

@KingofHarts I suggest the word pretty is a judgement of her attractiveness. So our difference of opinion may be just our difference of definitions

So much this^^^.

Also, very young men attracted to women their grandmother's age, I find very common on dating sites and the fact that they are acting on it also gross.

@Caroleanne also icky.

But are you saying attraction is a choice or not a choice?

I don't think it's always a black and white answer. I may not be attracted to someone at first, but upon getting to know them become attracted to them. Maybe you are too worried about appearances? Both of who you are interested in and how you are perceived by others? (And that's not supposed to be an insulting question, just something to ponder) I'll give an example. I once had a roommate who I got along great with. We always had a lot of fun and people would ask us why we weren't dating. I was willing, but for whatever reason, he decided he wasn't interested because I wasn't a little petite thing. So, yes, he made that choice, but he missed out on something potentially amazing because he wasn't willing to step outside his norm. I think attraction is something that can grow but you have to be willing to let it. To hell with what other people think. If you find a person you get along great with don't let superficial things or what society says your partner should look like get in the way. We all have some type of beauty if someone is willing to look. Don't limit yourself with a narrow definition. Like women who won't date someone shorter than themselves, I don't understand that. Or men who won't give me a second glance because I'm not 110 lbs. There's a lot more to me than my appearance. Anyway... not sure if that was helpful ?

I don’t understand what you mean by attraction being superficial and we need to go beyond that. Can you explain?

@KenG I think for me it means that I may be initially attracted to a man given his physical appearance or a man may be attracted to me for the same reason, or maybe he is attracted to blondes so I'd be out. By superficial I meant "outwardness" rather than "innerness"

@AmelieMatisse I didn’t mention looks. I just said attraction (which covers looks and personality etc)

@KenG got it! I was reading it as an initial attraction which would be walking into a room and seeing someone and saying "wow". It takes more time to understand someone's personality. So maybe in that case there is some choice because we can choose what type of personality appeals to us. But it's often a shell game to knowing what we are seeing is their true nature. I've been fooled!

@AmelieMatisse This seems to be more evidence that attraction isn’t a choice

Well... attraction is complicated. Probably what people mean is that you may have allowed the cultural component of attraction to overwhelm you. Our culture trains us that only certain types of beauty are acceptable: the kinds that are celebrated in the media, on the covers of magazines, in pornography and so on. While it is not a choice whether we are attracted to same sex or opposite sex partners (although cultural homophobia can block bisexual people from being open to their true desires), it is true that we can open ourselves to more types of beauty when we become aware of the cultural influences that have trained us, and we can work to overcome our knee-jerk reactions and biases. Being less shallow means becoming aware of the ways in which our mind has been controlled by the media and then working to open our minds to more than those limited things we have been coached to like, and not just being lead around by the nose like cattle.

@ejbman So you’re saying we can choose to become attracted to those we’re not currently attracted to?

@KenG That makes it sound too simple, like a light switch. I think it's more like being open to attraction to more categories of people we might have avoided in the past.

For instance, let's take a stereotypical example: many men are brainwashed into believing that only slim women are attractive. They might meet a woman who is larger and feel somewhat turned off by them physically, initially, even though they like their personality and they feel good around them. So it might be worthwhile, at that point, to question whether the feeling of being turned off was because men are taught that larger women are not as good a "catch" or are not as "competitive" (i.e, your buddies will not give you kudos for having a woman who is better at matching the unnatural standards set in magazines, etc.), or who are perceived as being "lazy" or "don't take care of themselves", etc., etc., etc.

It could be worthwhile to question those messages and find out if they are really true in the case of this individual person before you instead of making assumptions based upon hateful cultural messages. When you do this, you may find that you start liking and respecting the person more, and when then happens, you may find yourself attracted to them in a way that was not possible before.

I have experienced this firsthand in the course of my maturation and development, so I know it is possible.

I don't think he is saying you can choose to become attracted to those you aren't currently attracted to; more that if you give someone a chance even though you aren't initially attracted to them, you may be surprised that the attraction may come later. I was actually just having this conversation with a friend of mine last night because of this site. I showed her a picture of a man who messaged me and she responded he's not her "type". I told her while is isn't my "type" either, I never judge one's looks alone. I have found numerous times that while I may not be attracted to someone early, after I get to know them, or get to meet them, that may change remarkably.

@ejbman Interesting idea. But why should we do this? Is there anything wrong with being attracted to just slim women? (My preference)

@KenG Well, I hesitate to say there's anything "wrong" with it, LOL, but it probably does make it easier for people to make the "shallow" accusation you were discussing. It tends to signal that you have not done your homework with regard to your influences and that you have let yourself be led around by the nose by media messages which fetishize a certain look.

By the way, the purpose of fetishizing that look it totally transparent: it's to make more money. If people in power can convince everyone of one standard of beauty, then they can sell a ton of products to people who hope to be able to replicate that look, however desperately. They can also sell more images by hoarding and doling out access to those who represent the look. There's whole PhD theses written on this topic, so I'm just touching the surface and probably not doing it justice. But basically, it's not "wrong" to fall prey to this type of control, but, is it really something to which you want to have fallen prey like the other sheeple?

In some ways, I compare it with religious belief. Do you just suck up what you may have been taught, or will you go deeper and question the assumptions that society tried to put into your head? Is it "wrong" to be a believer? If you are here, it seems you are at least willing to question your assumptions.

@ejbman I fancy slim women. I have no desire for large women.

@KenG I wonder why. Don't you?

Maybe it's truly just an apples and oranges thing for you. But it's probably not purely biological. If it were, there are biological reasons to prefer larger women, considering that ample fat deposits are a likely sign that a developing fetus is more likely to be well-sustained throughout a pregnancy, especially in the area of brain development.

Also, consider other cultures. Polynesian men, for example, fancy women we would consider large. Polynesian people are no different than white folks, biologically. So perhaps this means cultural programming is at play in your desires.

If you don't want to analyze or deconstruct this, then fine. But you have more options available to you if you are willing to take the effort to look more deeply into your own desires.

@ejbman I’m presuming you’re not sexually attracted to men. Could you choose to be?

@KenG You are correct and no.

This is a scientific, peer reviewed, article which summarizes that attraction is, in part, choice (or at least determined by a person having an open mind about the other individual early on). Here is the abstract: We describe a model for understanding interpersonal attraction in which attraction can be understood as a product of the initial evaluations we make about others. The model posits that targets are evaluated on two basic dimensions, capacity and willingness, such that affective and behavioral attraction result from evaluations of (a) a target’s capacity to facilitate the perceiver’s goals/needs and a target’s potential willingness to facilitate those goals/needs. The plausibility of the two-dimensional model of attraction is evaluated vis-à-vis the extant literature on various attraction phenomena including the reciprocity of liking effect, pratfall effect, matching hypothesis, arousal effects, and similarity effect. We conclude that considerable evidence across a wide range of phenomena supports the idea that interpersonal attraction is principally determined by inferences about the target’s capacity and willingness.
A Two-Dimensional Model for the Study of Interpersonal Attraction. R. Matthew Montoya and Robert S. Horton. Personality and Social Psychology Review. Vol 18, Issue 1, pp. 59 - 86. Published September 10, 2013.

Browsing through a lot of the research, it seems that attraction is mostly not a choice, and people are generally attracted to the types of traits they are most often exposed to. This is true for cultural traits and physical traits. For example, if you are from a home or location, or are exposed to many overweight individuals, you are much more likely to be attracted to overweight individuals (whether you are overweight yourself or not). The same holds true for political stances, cultural norms, etc. Also, mate preference research has firmly established that men value physical attractiveness more than women do and women value social status more than men do in the past, however, this trend seems to be shifting. I hope this helps. If you find a scientific article you would like to read, I have access to them.

@meta4me Very interesting. Thanks