Who was first?

There is far more to it than losing territory . . . . IF you had read the Russian position on the issue, AND knew the history, you would not have even mentioned that!!! To be brief, yielding Ukraine to NATO would cause huge defensive issues (geographically speaking) for Russia. As for the history, Ukraine was given the full benefit of the doubt, by Russia, to govern the Donetsk region as long as the Donetsk region was given considerable autonomy . . . What did they do with that opportunity? They tried to drive Russian speaking peoples out of the Donetsk area with mortar rounds, bombs and attacks. But you would not know about that, because you have been paying attention to the preachers of bull shit, who only tell one side, AND exclude a shitload of details, as I indicated in my response to jeffmurray in one of the posts below.

@Archeus_Lore OK. This may be so. I never go backwards into history of what is happening right now so as to explain it by something from years ago. I view this as a distraction that allows a person to avoid what is happening right now. For example, our own country was founded as a Republic. If we keep it right there not everyone will be voting and no women will be voting, and yet certain women in political office seem to be fully onboard with this. That's an oxymoron. As for Russia, I never once wanted to see what provoked Putin to attack in the manner that he did. As a Progressive I was more concerned with humanity and peoples lives.

@DenoPenno "As a Progressive I was more concerned with humanity and peoples lives."
That is a very good thing to hear. You have to understand though that it was Russian lives being lost in Donetsk due to Ukrainian mortars, bombs and attacks . . . . Problem is, the US administration does not want you to know about that part of the story, and you will not see it on the main stream media, which does not surprise me one bit, because the US media continuously lies by omission, when they are not just telling outright lies.

@Archeus_Lore I have a problem understanding the language. My best reply is that the killing that went on that the video is showing should never have happened. Also, the killing going on in the Ukraine right now should not be happening. All of this is shameful and sad.

@DenoPenno Unfortunately, yes. Ukraine was given the option, by Russia, to keep Donetsk and the Donbass as long as they allowed them plenty of autonomy, but no, they had to go in and try to drive Russians out with mortars, bombs and attacks. And who pays for it? Everyone but the idiots who did it.

LOL....MSM went from Covid religion, to high gas price religion, to Ukraine religion. Instead of Sunday morning, it's broadcast ALL DAY LONG

The war started in 2014. Ukraine has been waging war against its on people in the East, including committing atrocities. It is a simplistic religious belief to assume that one side is totally bad and the other side is totally good.

@Krish55 I'm not saying one side is 100% to blame, but when that side is blowing up schools and maternity wards, the scales tip WAY in that direction.

@JeffMurray Some people have difficulty picking a side as it is not 100% right or wrong, just like any relationship/ human, political dynamic. Many won't know what side they are on....until they themselves are invaded. Information is hard to get, communication is the key to preventing tragic results

@Krish55 I'm not saying Ukraine is blameless but if you're talking 2014? Are we saying that a 328 -0 parliamentary vote to oust Yanukovych and a subsequent election was a coup/war against Russia?

@273kelvin
328 to 0? That sounds like a vote in North Korea!

After the 2014 coup, there was repression against those who opposed the coup. Subsequent elections were not fair under those conditions.

@Krish55 Apparently they've bombed a fucking Red Cross warehouse now too. If someone has a hard time taking sides knowing the targets Russia is going after they're a fucking moron. Even if you don't want to side with Ukraine, you should still be siding with Ukrainians.

@jeffmurray The US-brokered coup in Ukraine:.
Obama admitting his role in the US-supported coup in Ukraine, a war crime. (First video link below).
Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State, admits in the second video that the USA supported the Ukrainian coup with 5 billion dollars. Note the Chevron symbol in the background of the video. John McCain (Senator Lovewar himself) and Victoria Nuland were in Ukraine in December 2013 amid the mass anti-government protests. (The third video is of John McCain in Ukraine addressing protesters.) During the visit, McCain met with Ukrainian opposition leaders in the country’s capital of Kiev, voicing his support for the protests, adding that he saw Ukraine’s future with Europe.
Biden's youngest son, Hunter Biden was hired to the board of Burisma Holdings, Ukraine’s largest private gas producer.
The proxy Ukraine war is all about energy. The Eastern part of Ukraine is the major oil and gas producing region of Ukraine accounting for approximately 90 per cent of Ukrainian production and according to EIA (The American Energy Information Administration) may have 42 tcf (trillion cubic feet) of shale gas resources technically recoverable from 197 tcf of risked shale gas in place.
George Soros is heavily invested in Ukraine . . . . to the tune of about one billion dollars.
Obama admits the US-sponsored coup:

@JeffMurray I suppose also, you have not heard the Russian denials of what the American media has been claiming. The first casualty of war is the truth.

@Archeus_Lore None of that addresses my objection. I'm willing to grant ALL of that as 100% true. I STILL don't believe you can be the good guys when you invade and bomb schools, maternity wards, and Red Cross warehouses.

@JeffMurray And you still believe that the USA has not done that? As for your comment, I have not heard any Russians say that they agree with what has been reported (bomb schools, maternity wards, and Red Cross warehouses), all I have heard is denials. Not only that, I have heard that some of these events that they proport to have happened, where they post photos, are actually photos of OTHER events in other countries. Who can you believe? The USA is known to have attacked hospitals in Iraq, known to have used white phosphorous, known to have used depleted uranium, cluster bombs . . . . do you really care to go there?

@Archeus_Lore Are you deaf? I'm not condoning what the US has done. That has nothing to do with this though. If you were never allowed to condemn bad behavior if bad behavior had ever happened before (you're using whataboutism here) then no behavior could ever be condemned for the rest of human existence. That seems like a pretty stupid fuckin' model to base or opinions and actions on. Maybe our access to the truth from the media isn't the best, but I'm willing to bet anything that it's better than Russian citizens' access to the truth from the media.

@JeffMurray [msf.org]

@JeffMurray [theguardian.com]

@JeffMurray [wsws.org]
The actual video . . . .

@Archeus_Lore I guess you are deaf. I already said multiple times I'll grant you any of the accusations you want to lob against the US. 100%. Across the board. None of it is relevant to my position on Ukraine. Until you can utter something that isn't whataboutism, you're wasting your breath.

@JeffMurray Time, I am wasting my time, that is quite obvious anyway.

@Krish55 "Sounds like N. Korea" according to sources from whom? If that source is Russia? then a huge amount of salt is required before you digest it. Bear in mind Russia is not too far from N. Korea itself. All opposition is suppressed, jailed, exiled and/or killed.*
As atheist/agnostic members, we value the idea of peer revue over dogma. Flawed as western media is, there is still counter analysis and a free exchange of opinions, if not on CNN/Fox etc. then at least on the internet. When you remove all those checks on misinformation, then the output has to be suspect.

*No wonder Trump loves both countries' leaders so much.

@Archeus_Lore Yup, I'm not someone you can easily sway with your nonsensical whataboutism, so I'm a waste of time. Sounds about right for your kind.

@273kelvin I have not seen any counter analysis on CNN or other major Western media. And the removal of RT prevents the accessibility to counter analysis.

@JeffMurray You are someone who seems deadset on ignoring the obvious . . . . in fact, you like to assign blame to Russia, but when confronted with evidence showing that it was actually the USA that started it all in Ukraine, you act dumb. GTFOMT

@Archeus_Lore I'm fine with assigning blame to the US for instigating everything, but that still doesn't mean we shouldn't blame Russia for taking the bait.

@JeffMurray From that statement, I doubt you have any idea whatsoever with regard to WHY Russia responded. If you are surrounded by US military bases and NATO, you had damn well better respond when they attempt to take a territory that opens up geographic vulnerability in your defenses.
This is exactly why I made the comparison between people who seem to have come to the deduction that "god" as presented by our country is bull shit, usually because they investigated it enough to understand the problems with it . . . . . . but then they go right back to the SAME backward manner of thinking, they think they can deduce the truth without making any effort to understand the contrary parts of the issue . . . .
I speak Russian, have spent a great deal of time studying their culture and history, and, I have friends who are Russian who can explain issues I have questions about . . . . how about you? What do you REALLY know about Russia? Or are you just another windbag "preacher" or "evangelist" who thinks he knows what the hell he is talking about without knowing both sides of the issues?

@Archeus_Lore "George Soros is heavily invested in Ukraine . . . . to the tune of about one billion dollars."
Okay, I get that Soros ticks an awful lot of boxes for you guys. He is a Jewish financier, not part of the corporate mainstream, has a dislike/worked against authoritarian regimes (so that automatically puts him on the Trump/Murdock/Putin hit list. Oh and did I mention he was Jewish? Oh yeah, sorry).
But here is the thing, he is 94-years old now, don't you think it's about time you let him dribble his oatmeal down his chin in peace? The rest of us are getting embarrassed for you.

Sad. But HEY ! Ya got Donnie & Frat Boy Tucker on Valerie's side. Tells me about what I need to know

BD66's: Also U might want to consider this is an Atheist/ Agnostic site, and Donnie is a PUPPET of the Religious Wrong. This kind of makes him a non starter here.

Of course no one dare says this in the media. .......I did tho. Figured it out all by myself.

@twill Donnie is not a puppet of the Religious. He exploits their irrational beliefs for easy votes. That's been something that the Republicans have used for decades, certainly not something Donnie came up with.