I live in Portland. I can't imagine how miserable it would be to be one of a few atheists.

@elaw the only atheist I know in real life is my wife. I know a few virtually, but it almost seems easier to find a unicorn here.

I hate to differ (actually I love to differ, but it is better to say the opposite). Progressives and socialists are anything but liberal. Socialism is actually a religion. Like other religions its dogma rules and facts that do not concur are discarded as lies. Any theory that discards facts is a religion.

@norealgod Would you then describe capitalism as a religion? Or does it's economic model somehow hold it aloft from such scrutiny? I suppose it depends upon your interpretation. For myself, socialism (in my apprehension of it), is just a system oriented towards vesting wealth to serve the communities it is derived from. There are variations of it, just as there are variations of capitalism. I mean, really... I think it's fairly appropriate to reduce these concepts to broader descriptors with less stigma attached. I think it may be more fitting to suggest there is a spectrum for this aspect of governance with collectivism on one end and individualism on the other. Most of us would find our opinions about how a group of people should organize themselves fall as a position somewhere on this line. When ruminating upon this concept, I like to consider the rallying cry of Alex Dumas "3 Musketeers": "All for One and One for All". This neatly encapsulates how this dichotomy balances itself.

@norealgod Socialism is a broad term, much like Republic or Monarchy. By some standards, we are already a socialist country. It's a matter of how much entitlements your citizens receive that likely determines how socialist a country is. Could you explain how it's a religion?

@norealgod That is as ridicules as anything l have ever read. ?

@elaw, @Anemynous I usually do not refer to big names, but the person who opened my eyes to socialism as a religion was Bertrand Russel. The standard by which I measure a religion as opposed to science, is the degree in which it distorts reality. A capitalist who tries and fails will examine the reality and make changes to his plans. Socialism has but one solution. The state distributes the available resources.

Capitalism cannot ignore the state. We must have a state in order to prevent chaos and mayhem, but this is where the state's purpose and action should end. The rest is determined by Adam Smith's invisible hand. Human beings are only equal under the law, but they are far from equal. Some have more talent and more drive, others have less. Capitalism recognizes this difference, Socialism does not. This in itself is already a major distortion of reality. One's faith in socialism distorts reality as much or even more than one's faith in god

@Anemynous No, it is not, but socialism is indeed a religion. It even had an inquisition named KGB. Capitalism is the name of a "Laissez faire" system. It is French for leave alone - let the people be. it applies to economic behavior. Have you ever seen a religion that lets the people be? Does socialism let the people be? No, it takes what they have worked for and gives it to others! Q.E.D

@norealgod Well. I like what little I have read of Bertrand Russell... but he’s certainly expressed things I don’t agree with as well. I imagine his opinions were based on whatever culture he was exposed to at the time. Is it Laissez Faire for corporations to strip resources from a community and leave it to wither and deteriorate without accountability? This does not strike me as “letting the people be”... just the opposite in fact. Capitalism allows the consolidation of wealth without appropriate recompense. I know the original intent of capitalism was to represent the sovereignty of the individual, but it’s a flawed model if that sovereignty comes at the expense of others. You say that socialism is lacking a feedback loop that spurrs the individual into self correcting... that may be so... but the same is also true of capitalism in the sense It does not tell you when you have had “enough”. Capitalism is completely devoid of an ethical component which considers anything other than property and liberty to have value... that’s the problem. Those two criteria are not adequate alone to maintain civil society.

@norealgod Also, you are conflating communism with socialism. They have specific definitions which differentiate them. I'm not specifically against either one. I'm not super impressed with existing dominant models, nor do I think a capitalist democracy is "the best we can do". Pretty much all capitalist democracies (at least the ones that are not completely corrupt) have adopted at least some socialist policies (at the behest of the electorate!) to help balance the failings of capitalism.

@norealgod It is the capitalist that takes what the slave and the worker produces.

In my experience, yes. But I actually know only a couple of conservatives and no one who is into religion. So, my experience is limited in that department.

Yes

I tend to vote left on social issues alone. After reading the comments, I really wish we had more political parties.

The answer is yes. conservatism is the preservation of the "good old days" and we have been much more religious in the past. This, of course applies to the religions of god.

I am more inclined to libertarianism. The term liberal has been distorted by the newspeak of the left. Liberals and progressives are anything but. Their religion is far more dangerous than that of the conservatives.

@norealgod the good old days...when I was neither good nor old...sigh

I don't think Progressives or Conservatives have any reason to be considered smart. If those identifying with either of them were really 'smart', they wouldn't need to subscribe to a group or feel in need of any group's validation of their ideas. Smart people not only know what they think, they know why without the crutches of 'talking points'.

I, likewise, registerd Independent (after the last presidential election). Was Dem before; don't care for either now, but like you, lean a bit Dem (still).

Ideology aside, I would prefer a party that isn't for corporations at every fecking turn.

In Oregon we have a lot of variants of "Democrat." I registered as Working Families because they are against over-taxation. Democrats love bureaucracy which can be more of a hindrance than help. I still will probably always vote left due to social issues alone.

Or playing the Christians.

I was looking for that. You found it!

Thanks!

So, by right-wing you are talking about conservative viewpoints such as immigration, fiscal policy, etc.? I consider myself progressive but I have conservative leanings on a few key areas. When I think of "right-wingers" I think of people using the Bible to justify moronic claims. This is a bias that I would like to change.

@elaw over 30 academic studies have shown that there is a commonality about people that indicates which way they will learn. Those that identify as liberal show less fear. The more fearful a person is the more "conservitive" they are. Notice that I put quotes around conservative. At one time language mattered and words actually had meaning. At the core of conservative is conserve. This means to protect and maintain as much as possible. However, there are only two things that modern "conservitives" seek to maintain and that is the godhood of the wealthy and the religious observance of fear.

I don't like to label myself. For example, I lean left on many issues but not all. I don't like to call myself a Democrat. All atheists I've met have also been more liberal. I was curious if there were conservative atheists and what their views might be.