Funny how art reflects life, this one is about programing people, done on a stage performance. Lucky my artwork is more open for interpretation and no political or religious content. It sell well being as unique, the key word. In the pass I did follow the top competition and the crowds, yet don't like the fighting the competition . After a while it create much conflicts and fake togetherness, like us against them. And perfer the open peace, co-operation, freedom and choices Even if I don't like the rules, often the punishment can be worse than the crime. So I respect the rules, don't like suffering. Yet will bend the rules all to hell, until it feels more intimate and honest to me than to the sheep and Sheep dogs. In the long run, they like it too.

It seem steeple swing on a pendulum of average of 40%. Between independent thinkers of 10 to 30% to totalterrimism more constant 40%. During the second world War and depression years it could be easily over 80% steeple. This cold third world war between NATO G7 and BRICS, who really knows? I Can imagine very high conciding most people are begging for help from globalist, banks, Technology, more synthetic drugs and foods. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

and shepherds

Perhaps Stanley is not as famous as Obama for winning the Noble peace prize. Meanwhile killing more, and mostly poor people, women and children oversea than any president in our lifetime.

Stanley Milgram remains one of the most controversial figures in the history of psychology. Milgram was a social psychologist who invested significant amounts of time and effort into the study of how people related to obedience to authority. The notorious Milgram Experiment forever changed not only how people look at the dangers of authoritarianism, but also people’s inhumanity to each other.
Stanley Milgram was born on August 15, 1933, in New York City. Milgram was an exceptionally bright young man. After receiving his Ph.D. in Social Psychology in 1960. In 1967, he served as a full professor at the City University of New York Graduate Center.
Stanley Milgram wondered how and why the Nazi Holocaust occurred and if it was possible if such events could ever happen again in the future.

The Aftermath of the Experiment
When the events of the Milgram Experiment were made public, a great deal of shock swept the nation. The academic community often felt that there was a decide lack of ethics in an experiment of this nature. Regardless, Milgram went on to become world famous and remained so until his death in 1984.

@Castlepaloma I have no idea how Obama is relevant in the least so I'll move on from what appears to be a non sequitur.

I wasn't talking about a reference regarding Milgram but your claim regarding what he "found".

@redba

It was mention by few here if Stanley is legit or well known enough or lack of a site reference curiously.. So I gave some and since Obama represents authority, so I gave an example of an authority that the people would by moral or citizens would think or fear to defy his authority. . gees

@Castlepaloma Obama hasn't been POTUS in more than 7 years. How you pull him out to represent authority is a mystery. Why didn't you use the office of the POTUS if you were attempting to make that argument because as you presented it, it makes no sense unless a person is obsessed with introducing Obama into everything for some reason?

FTR, you still haven't demonstrated that your first comment has any truth in it at all, nor have you demonstrated that Stanley claimed it.

He was leading less than 20% of the population.

Did you find one example of people power over authorities? . Like the small town of Selma the focus of their drive to win voting rights for African Americans in the South. Personally I don't vote, in order to take no stake or stock on the out come. Strong individuals, independents with integrity, Now that's people power!!!!

@BD66 You have no clue how many people folowed him. Considering the results 20% is an obviously low number.

@Alienbeing

The marchers, whose numbers swelled to about 25,000 along the way, covered the roughly 50 miles (80 km) to Montgomery in five days, arriving at the state capital on March 25.

That's much less than 20% of the population.

@BD66 IGNORING THE OBVIOUS, that relatively small numbers of people standing up caused HUGE changes in the USA, and arguably the world, is pathetic....find a real rebuttal, whydoncha?

@BD66, @Castlepaloma GHANDI

@AnneWimsey

A few grassroots people do act locally and go globally.
Yes, Ghandi did stop 600 years by cannon of the British taking over India as their ownership.. One person can make a difference in the world. . Facts still points to 20% have this critical capacity in order to make a great discovery or positive change. Some think it's only 5% or 10% that can have the independence to think.

@AnneWimsey Gandhi was an even better example.

On March 12, Gandhi set out from Sabarmati with 78 followers on a 241-mile march to the coastal town of Dandi on the Arabian Sea. There, Gandhi and his supporters were to defy British policy by making salt from seawater. All along the way, Gandhi addressed large crowds, and with each passing day an increasing number of people joined the salt satyagraha. By the time they reached Dandi on April 5, Gandhi was at the head of a crowd of tens of thousands. Gandhi spoke and led prayers and early the next morning walked down to the sea to make salt.

He had planned to work the salt flats on the beach, encrusted with crystallized sea salt at every high tide, but the police had forestalled him by crushing the salt deposits into the mud. Nevertheless, Gandhi reached down and picked up a small lump of natural salt out of the mud–and British law had been defied. At Dandi, thousands more followed his lead, and in the coastal cities of Bombay and Karachi, Indian nationalists led crowds of citizens in making salt. Civil disobedience broke out all across India, soon involving millions of Indians, and British authorities arrested more than 60,000 people. Gandhi himself was arrested on May 5, but the satyagraha continued without him.

On May 21, the poet Sarojini Naidu led 2,500 marchers on the Dharasana Salt Works, some 150 miles north of Bombay.

We're talking 78 people or 2500 people out of a country of 350,000,000.

@BD66 Get real! MLK's following was Not limited to those who marched with him in Selma or any other single location. Hiw following was NATIONWIDE.

@Alienbeing Thank you for some common sense!
And Ghandi had no influence whatsoever either, i guess

@Alienbeing @AnneWimsey Going back to the original post:

"Psychologist Stanley Milgram found that 80% of people do not have the psychological and moral resources to defy an authority's order, "

The percentage of people in the South who were defying the laws of the southern states, and the percentage of Indians who were defying the British Colonial laws was extremely small.

The percentage of people, who stood by thinking "Go Gandhi" or "Go MLK" was pretty large, but they were expressing their feelings at little or no risk to themselves.

@BD66 You don't get it and obviously never took statistics.

@Alienbeing I have a PhD in statistical signal processing and 35 patents. Many of them involve statistical processing of huge amounts of data.

@BD66 Sure you do.

@BD66 Did you get that degree from the same place that gave @CourtJester his MD, PhD and Pharmacist licenses?
I'm thinking yup.......

@AnneWimsey
The uneducated have the most predictably narrow minds.

@Alienbeing @AnneWimsley

[patents.justia.com]

[proquest.com]

@BD66 You haven't proven a thing yet.

@Alienbeing I have posted the first 24 pages of my PhD Thesis, and a pointer to my 35 patents. What more proof are you looking for?

My notes from a graduate level detection and estimation class?

A photo of the PhD plaque hanging above my desk?
My college transcripts?
Articles published in scholarly journals?

@BD66 No, none of that. Obviously your education FAILED you. The point was (and remains) your total ignorance of Statistics. The point obviously went right over your head.I t appears that in your case PhD really does mean "Piled High and Deep"

@Alienbeing

"Psychologist Stanley Milgram found that 80% of people do not have the psychological and moral resources to defy an authority's order,"

Do you believe more than 20% of the people broke the law to support MLK? That would be about 40,000,000 Americans.
Do you believe more than 20% of the people broke the law to support Gandhi? That would be about 80,000,000 Indians.

@BD66 I believe you don't comprehend what you read very well. If you don't understand prior replies, there is no hope, the replies were very clear.

@Alienbeing

Here is the original post:

Psychologist Stanley Milgram found that 80% of people do not have the psychological and moral resources to defy an authority's order,

Here is what you said:

@BD66 You have no clue how many people folowed him. Considering the results 20% is an obviously low number.

Here is my response:

The original post was about "defying authority", you are talking about "followed"

You can "follow" someone and participate in the Montgomery Bus Boycott. In that case, you can find more than 20% of the people to "follow" you. Those people are only suffering inconvenience, not violence and imprisonment.

"Defying authority" is an entirely different matter. In that case you are facing police batons, police dogs, arrests, and imprisonment. It's extremely rare when you can get >20% of the people to "Defy authority". The only time you can achieve that is when you get "safety in numbers", where the number of people "Defying authority" is so large, the risk for one individual of "defying authority" is relatively small. Some examples:

People who drive faster than the speed limit on the freeway.
People who smoked weed before it was legalized.
People who consumed alcohol before the age of 21.
The Tiananmen square protests.

The secret to success for people like MLK, Gandhi, and the organizers of the Tiananmen square protests is first to develop a huge group of people who are willing to "follow" but not break any laws, then when the time comes to "defy authority", you may be able to get those "followers" to "defy authority". However it's a rare thing.

@BD66 Give it up. I CLEARLY explained my replies. All I can say is you are stubborn, and SEE ABOVE and try to understand what you are reading.

@Alienbeing The original post was about "Defying Authority". Everything you posted is talking about "followers" or "people following him". There is a huge difference between "Followers" and "Defying Authority"

People who watched his speeches and approved of what he said -> Followers.
People who participated in the Montgomery bus boycotts breaking no laws -> Followers.
People who willfully defied Jim Crow laws, risking violence, arrest, and imprisonment -> Those who Defied Authority.

Can you see the distinction?

I agree with you that more than 20% of the people in the USA "Followed" MLK, but way fewer than 20% of the people in the South defied the Jim Crow laws and exposed themselves to risks of violence and imprisonment.

If you want to continue arguing with me, please precisely define what you want to argue about.

@BD66 I did precisely describe why your post was incorrect. I subsequently expanded on why. You may have a Ph.D, but you sure sound slow. BTW, what University gave you that degree?

Last, I am not nor ever was arguing with you, I was pointing out the inconsistency of history and your remarks. Another indication that you don't comprehend what you read.

@Alienbeing

>>I did precisely describe why your post was incorrect.

OK, I think I understand now. Here was what I first posted:

"He was leading less than 20% of the population."

I was not precise in my first post. This is what I meant in the context of the original post:

"fewer than 20% of the people in the South defied the Jim Crow laws and exposed themselves to risks of violence and imprisonment."

I understand why you were talking about "followers" rather than "defiers of authority". It was because I posted "leading".

>>>I subsequently expanded on why. You may have a Ph.D, but you sure sound slow. BTW, what University gave you that degree?

I have already provided the link to you:
[proquest.com]
Are you too lazy to follow it and scroll down 2 pages?

>>>Last, I am not nor ever was arguing with you, I was pointing out the inconsistency of history and your remarks. Another indication that you don't comprehend what you read.

I think I understand the confusion now. As a general note: It's more constructive to argue the issue at hand rather than engage in personal attacks.

@BD66 See above

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

@ClassicalRebel Is that so. Please explain.

@Jolanta Just because someone is from a different country doesn't mean that their behavior will be that much different. People are basically the same around the world.

@ClassicalRebel I have found in my travels that people may be the same in some ways yet they are very different in others. Cultural differences are immense, even between same countries from north to south.

@Jolanta

From traveling 102 countries, I agree with people 95% of the time, the 5% can be a bitch. Even chimpese are 99% biological the same as human. It's why I feel no better or worse than the next guy. Although in the world of over ego authorities of labeling, separation and conquering. Following rape and pillage if non compliance with their nonsense golden rule of who owns the gold.

If the 80% slow downed their assuming labeling and judgment out on us. And the 80% took all their fears, guestions and complaining about media & authorities to them, instead of us. Most problems would be solved about us against them. I'm not against anything, just not for some things. Their enemies are amoug themselves, I don't accept enemies, I'm a lover, not a fighter. Except fighting for truth and love ones.

In a small political discussion today people started quoting things for me that I had never heard before. I started telling them how to fact check things and also said there is a chance your source is not reliable.

i see you don't get a response. if the original poster wanted others to respond to the key points i think they should have worded this correctly and provided a link. since they have not gone back to edit and fix the original post unfortunately maybe they are valuing causing unnecessary confusion.

Only when the Government fear the people rather than recently people fear the Government. Terrorism and totalterrimism won't look like USSR and North Korea.
About 15O years ago in Christianity America by 98% in North America. They had far more authority influenced by them than today. Nobody going to stop me from questioning authorities. It's called free speech and a free world. More people are afraid of public speaking than death itself. Good thing I'm not afraid of death.

@Castlepaloma
Critical thinking and a reasonable scepticism usually is sufficient guard against the follies of orthodoxy.

@Castlepaloma The way to make govt responsive and respectful of all people will not happen by making it more religiously controlled. If that happens then it will only become fearful to a different segment of people who may destroy it (as did the Party which put religion in control) through violence and threats. If that is how we're going to do things then I'm also unafraid of death.

@rainmanjr

Good thing being fearless. I address people as a biological organism and an individual.first. Its healthier than what the majority are experiencing as over obedient workers of compliance and fearful of their centroism group vs other centroism groups.. Like banks, governments and their political truths. And the religious who think they know they have the right picky God. If all fails, through their faith, they get an express ticket to extreme enteral happiness. Which I call the funny farm in the sky.

Don't see harm in another great professional, who is great in what they do expressing their perspective. Plus base my life on good sense , political truth stinks. I do see the greatest authorities who do great harm and destruction in human history since the Roman empires. Up to date Banks, Government and Corperioism corruption. I just care enough to go in the opposite direction as fast as human and humanity as possible. Pick a choice and your own sacrifices.

@Castlepaloma Who says he is a "great professional"?

@Alienbeing

One most common thread of measure of greatness. Is investment of 10,000 hours of work or pratice in that profession. Likely you are great at being a lawyer with probably far more hours than that. I would be for sculpture, urban farming and tiny housing tie in with freedom to do so. .

@Castlepaloma Practicing one's chosen profession, irrspective of the number of hours, is NOT an indication of greatness. Greatness would equate to how much better than average you are in your profession of choice.

@Alienbeing

How many hours would it take you to reach the pinnacle of success in music, computer science, or hockey? I'm saying 10,000 would make this the most common factor of success of greatness. Of course no one thing is nearly that simple. It also takes brains, heart and moreso courage . Just few ideas proposed answers for a starting beginner in thought provoking success stories.

@Castlepaloma Your reply shows you believe hours of practice would yield "pinnacle of success" status in one's chosen profession.

Actually the numbers of practice in one's profession is TOTALLY unrelated to "pinnacle success". Some may become highly proficient in a few years, others never, no matter how long they stay in their job.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_e…Dec 15, 2021

I find this more true recently, than any other time. Look at the alarming state narrative of following the Government and Centro banks And the compliance theory of corporationism is more true than the questioning their authority. What's happening is questioning these authorities has become a constant label of conspiracy theories. Even a law calling out the Government for any harm to us and family is label a psychopath. I've been called a serial killer by a few for being unvaxxed, that is just insane.

@Castlepaloma There is a difference between have the psychological and moral resources to defy an authority's order and bloody minded gainsaying

@Castlepaloma Anyone who voted for a single war, since 1960, can be called a serial killer (in my definition of it). Especially one started upon a known lie. Participating in it most certainly made one a serial killer. Only the justification changed. I applaud the desire to not fear our government but IMO (and it is only an opinion) you folks are selling one brand of authoritarianism to avoid another. Present something truly different, as I have, or it's just a matter of tribe. If that's the case then...yawn.

@rainmanjr

Would agree, 9 times out of 10 a soldier kill is a murderers in a uniform. It's old politicians who send Yong men into a war in the middle east to kill mostly poor, women and children.

I'm an biological organism and individual first that teams up with other strong individuals. Bow to No one and no better leader for myself than I. Centroism of any kind of absolute power, always corrupts No power struggle or enemies for me. Sound selfish, but hey!!! what ever works.

@Castlepaloma I don’t agree with your current convictions but can’t argue your point about power or who has it. We’ll see what happens, I suppose.

@rainmanjr

If I don't respect and love myself first, nobody will. Without this , it's impossible to serve humanity and others well. Authorities are secondary.

@Castlepaloma You are not serving others well by going against their vote.

@rainmanjr
I've said repeatedly , I'm not against anything. Just not for super wealthy self interest business man with politicians in their back pocket .Who owns almost everything. I served housing for minimum wage people. I serve healthy food,and medicines by urban farming to livestock, pets and people. With solid family and community artistic teamwork. What politicians in this world can do all this at the highest quality and diversity. Please find me one of these parisites or predators who can serve like this? Maybe I'll vote... not

@Castlepaloma By being for something you are against something else. That's natural, automatic, so you are being duplicitous with that. IDC what you do or whether you vote...or not. I hope not so that works for me.

The 'orders' were not 'legitimate'.
Read the book. Learn about the Milgram Experiment.

[goodreads.com]
[simplypsychology.org]

@FearlessFly I was commenting on the strange use of "legitimate", not on the Milgram Yale experiment, which helped explain why so many Germans, for example, complied with Hitler's orders.

@Petter The Milgram Experiment (repeated many times by others, using women and subjects of different ages) took place on US campuses (and I think other places).

Look what happen to USSR, or North Korea.

@FearlessFly The comment referred to the way the post was worded, NOT the book.