All good but it's called natural justice ie hearing both sides of the story before passing judgement. The real point is the chance to be exposed to both sides of the story with this post. Then make a judgement. I think we both agree he committed crimes on that day but disagree on the severity and intent.
Yes he is out there and wants to put himself in a good light, but at least he is articulate and able to defend himself. My impression is he got a somewhat raw deal from media coverage and the DoJ.
The irony is if we want to talk interference with due process, creating a dossier which resulted in Russiagate and suppressing accurate stories regarding laptops, supported by a false claim from 50 former spooks, seems far greater interreference from my perspective.

@puff Yes he's articulate, but the thoughts he expresses are either wacko or self-serving. And dossiers, the Russians, laptops, spooks, it's just too cute by half. Lots of innuendo but not much in the way of hard evidence. Certainly, none of that justifies his behavior on January 6. And now that I think about it, I don't buy his story about why he did it. He gives us a laundry list of reasons, the magnetic field of the Earth being a prominent part, but mixed in with all this other fuzzy stuff too, and even a nod to the supposed stealing of an election, though he tosses that in as if it was an afterthought. Well, I don't buy it. "Stop the Steal" was the whole shebang, why everybody showed up. He's definitely lying.

@puff As for the value of hearing both sides, I admit that I know a little bit more about the Q Anon Shamman than I did before. Not that I had given him a thought in months, and then it was only for the 15 seconds his image was featured in the J6 news piece. Unfortunately, the experience is a lot like hitting another pothole on a long and winding road. They all blend together and then you forget about them before you even reach your destination.

@Flyingsaucesir "Lots of innuendo but not much in the way of hard evidence." is Russiagate in a nutshell.
Ironic that when there was hard evidence of foreign influence in Hunter Biden's laptop, it was dismissed from the public's mind instantly because of the successful disinformation campaign that was Russiagate.
Russiagate, the brainchild of the Clinton campaign. The damage that lie has done to Russia's reputation internationally helped induce the Ukraine conflict I have no doubt. Everyone believed Russia were the devil incarnate anyway so damage to international standing was probably no longer an issue to be considered for them when deciding to enter Ukraine and Putin is vain in that respect, he cares how others view him. That combined with the equally successful campaign that initiated Trump Derangement Syndrome in so many. We are now on the brink of major conflict with Biden's admin resisting all attempts to de-escalate the conflict. Russia bad Russia bad Russia bad chants the Democrats at large, that party who used to pursue peace. A lot of this zeal for war with Russia is because of Russiagate. But of course we all know the alternative is worse....................
"A threat to our democracy" is Trump, everybody knows that message is more scary than anything the Biden admin does, above criticism they are. Disagree and you come full circle and get accused of being a Russian troll and/ or Trump supporter..
PS Sorry, a tad off topic but an enjoyable thread of conversation.

@puff Speaking for myself, Russiagate has influenced me not one iota. Zero. The Steele dossier was nothing but a flash in the pan. My antipathy for Putin stems from many years of watching him jail or murder anyone who crosses him, all the while greatly enriching himself as the head of a criminal gang with sovereign powers. He is a classic dictator, a vicious thug, and a lying piece of shit. And he definitely meddled in the 2016 presidential election, tilting it in favor of Trump. But we don't even have to know all that about Putin the man to understand that Russia is the aggressor in Ukraine. I mean, Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around. And Russia's ongoing genocidal campaign speaks for itself: daily missile barrages on civilians, bombing schools, hospitals, apartment buildings, people on a train platform trying to flee the carnage. There is no doubt that Ukraine's cause is just. And we, with our European allies, are doing the world a service by supporting Ukraine. As long as Ukrainians are willing to fight, we should continue to provide them with everything they need to win. And they are winning. There is no better evidence of that than the fact that Putin had to go begging North Korea for ammunition. As many as 500 thousand Russian men of military age have fled the country in order to avoid conscription. We have got Putin on the ropes. Keep the pressure on him and he will fold up his tent and quit Ukraine. (Joe Biden deserves a lot of credit for helping to keep the alliance together; this is why Putin so desperately wants him gone and Trump back in the White House. But we actually have rule of law in this country, and the Done Cheato is going down. Soon the trial of two of his co-conspirators will begin, and it will be televised nationally. We are going to see and hear, in granular detail, how the Orange Foolius attempted to nullify the votes 81 million American citizens.)

@Flyingsaucesir Speaking for myself, Putin has been a strong leader for Russia. I recall the basketcase country he inherited from Yeltsin.
Putin was the first to join the war on terror, every one was American that day on 9/11 if you recall, but that good will soon fled when Iraq was invaded which had zero involvement in 9/11. Putin made it clear decades ago that Ukraine and Georgia were red lines when it came to NATO expansion. He was ignored.
Putin has largely been an observer, but that changed with NATO's destruction of Libya. When the same was planned for Syria he stepped in and stopped the ISIS flow of oil.
I do not condone the invasion of Ukraine but there was a civil war going since 2014, with government forces targeting Russian ethnic Ukranians with 12,000 odd Ukranians dead at the hands of Ukranians prior to the invasion from Russia. The "West" was providing no diplomatic solutions to the conflict, actively arming government forces to kill their own citizens. Russia chose to intervene militarily which I do not agree with but fully understand. Eastern thinking differs from Western thinking. They like strong leaders, good or bad, as long as they are strong. Up to sovereign nation states to decide how they are governed.
The direct result of Biden policy is to continue the conflict to damage Russia, a stated goal. The false concerns for Ukranian life and democracy are just that, false concerns. If they really cared, the war would be over as it almost was before Boris cockblocked negotiations on behalf of the USA.
Biden's sanctions on Russia have backfired spectacularly, bringing China and Russia closer, expanding BRICS and causing many countries to rid themselves of $USD dependance. Europe is suffering, going into recession. There will be forever consequences for Nord Stream, which Biden vowed to halt, had motive, ability and intention and the US has benefited from the crime more than any other.
PS Americans complaining of election interference is so laughable. Practice what you preach.

@puff Every dictator is, by definition, a "strong leader." And like so many others before him, Putin has run his kleptocracy well, if the measure of success is enriching himself and his cronies while the rest of the population languishes in poverty. The average Russian income is less than that of the average Indian! Yep, mighty strong smelling leader that bad lad Vlad!

The rest of your screed is pure what-about-ism. If you have been paying attention at all you know that I have consistently advocated for trying George W. Bush as a war criminal. The second US invasion of Iraq was ill conceived, immoral, and illegal. But two wrongs do not make a right. Putin is a war criminal too. And the US-European alliance is, happily, in a position to help Ukraine do something about it.

All Putin has to do to spare his country more loss of blood and treasure is to quit Ukraine. The more destruction Putin wreaks on Ukraine, the steeper the bill for reparations will be.

@Flyingsaucesir World leaders are full of war criminals. I can't believe Obama got away with arming and training al Nusra, a declared enemy of the USA. That is treason 101.
All Russia wants is for Ukraine to be neutral, something I would have though the US could empathise with after the Cuban missile crisis. A guarantee from NATO that they would not base military assets in Ukraine would end this war, a demand from Russia that I do not think is unreasonable after all, isn't the point of NATO to ensure peace in Europe? Why can't they see that continued expansion towards Russian borders does not enhance peace, it jeopardises it? NATO does Europe a disservice imo. All it does is keep weapon manufacturers employed.
Funny countries that experience American Freedom end up failed states.

@puff In the days of the Cuban missile crisis, submarine-platformed intercontinental ballistic missiles did not exist. Now they do, and we have learned to live with the nuclear sword of Damocles hanging over our heads 24/7, 365 days a year, decade after decade. (Arguably, the concept of mutually assured destruction has kept the great powers from all-out war with each other. Proxy wars are not exactly a good thing, but better than global thermonuclear Armageddon.) Therefore, there is no justification for anything like the Cuban missile crisis today. And any claim that NATO expansion represents a threat to Russia is just so much hot air. It is, essentially, Russia complaining about having its own opportunities for illegal annexations nipped in the bud. Poor Russia! Thwarted in her fever dreams of reconstituting the Soviet empire! Excuse me for not shedding any tears over Emperor Vlad's lost opportunities for expansion of his kleptocracy. Fuck him and the swaybacked nag he rode in on, the slimy little viper.

How are you me olde China plate?

@puff I'm still above ground so that's good.

@barjoe Good to hear

@puff If anything changes I'll let you know.

He is for sure. Telling he paused before explaining how he entered, careful in his words.
I do think though that he had no plan to invade the capital building. Events outside got chaotic because of a few, doors/ windows breached and he participated. Nothing I have seen has shown he was violent. He is no innocent but he wasn't violent and according to the footage inside I've seen, he was not exciting anything, helping calm things. Being a wanker and taking advantage of the moment.
The procedure that day got delayed a coupla hours due to an out of control protest, that is all. There was no insurrection attempt. He's not the devil incarnate, just a bullshit artist caught in the moment and, as he is aware, became a symbol of that day.

Thank you for your attempt to bring back sanity. Why don't I read Mein Kampf because Hitler was articulate, a marketing genius, and charismatic?

Just the fact that we have to have this conversation tells me we're done. There is no bringing back sanity to this world.

@puff no insurrection attempt? Are you on drugs or just crazy?? Yes, the count was only delayed by a few hours, but the INTENT was to replace the legitimate electors for Biden with hand chosen replacements to crown Trump the king of America! They just didn't pull it off.

@JonnaBononna The plan was for Trump to deny the results if he lost and use all legal means to dispute the election results. Trump flagged his intention before the election even started eg vilifying postal voting. The last step of this was for the VP to refuse to accept certain votes from the college reps as legal action was still ongoing. Legally very dodgy but Trump was playing his dodgy game within the legal framework. Devious yes. Immoral probably. Legal? That is the debate. Do candidates have the right to question results, especially if the race is close? I think he had that right but was launching too many frivolous cases which got tossed out.
Trump wanted a rowdy mob to support Pence and when Pence backed out the crowd turned against him.

@UrsiMajor Know thy enemy is the smart thing to do. You should read their literature to understand how best to counter them. You need to know what you are fighting against.

@puff no. They LITERALLY had fake electors ready to vote even AFTER all legal means were dead. That, sir, is attempting an insurrection. They intended Pence to throw out the legal votes and have the fake ones step in.

@JonnaBononna Not disputing what you have said but rather than Pence "throw out" my understanding was he could argue that he was unable to accept results yet as all legal processes had not been finalised. A delaying tactic resulting in possible recounts or re-holding the election.
It's all "could haves" really, but it didn't.
I had a road rage incident once where I was not paying attention and had to slam on the brakes at the lights, almost going up the arse of the car in front. He immediately jumped out and started abusing me, banging the panels of my car, saying "You almost hit me". My response was "But I didn't, did I?" There was no accident, just the potential for one was avoided just. I kinda see this insurrection charge in the same light. An incident was narrowly avoided and beating a dead horse over a potential incident rather than an actual one seems a pointless distraction to me.

@puff Its plausible that he didn't originally intend to do anything violent but participating in an attempted insurrection alongside a mob of people that destroyed and vandalized property is certainly violent. And would it really matter if, for example, I broke into your home yet didn't do anything violent? And I brought a few hundred strangers with me.

@Charles1971 Yes it would matter but a temporary occupation rather than a takeover. For an insurrection there was very little resistance when authorities finally decided to clear the building. Insurrection suggests forethought, preparation and objectives to be achieved. What I have gleaned was it was totally unorganised with no clear objective ie once inside they didn't seem to know what to do.
To credit these people with insurrection is being generous imo, it was more a rabble.

@puff again, all the legal processes HAD been finalized. The Supreme Court had ruled, and yet they still had fake electors at the ready. Trump summoned his minions there to intimidate Pence to stop the count so they could swoop them in. Trump's indictments spell it all out really well.

@JonnaBononna What was Trump's first indictment again? Something about a phone call asking Zelenskyy to look into Biden's connection to Ukraine?
The final legal process to confirm election results was to occur on the 6th when the VP accepts the college votes from each state. This is mostly ceremonial but if the VP chose to wait until legal arguments were over concerning the validity of tally's there would have been chamber debates and votes regarding each state's college vote. I think Trump's plan was to have a large, loud raucous crowd outside the Capitol chambers in an attempt to intimidate those inside into further questioning results, especially Pence. Legally plausable. Morally and ethically you would have to say dodgy and not in the spirit of the game
It is a shame the events of the 6th stopped this important debate from happening ie a vibrant democratic process in itself. Would have been good to watch.

@puff again the VP couldn't wait until the legal arguments were over. They WERE over. Trump begged those people to be there and he planned to joined them but was stopped by the secret service, and he did nothing to try to get them to stop what they were doing. And they were clear in their objective- stop the vote in any way possible.

He is into his Shaman gig. Think he objected to the Q-ANON bit, he doesn't identify as Republican or Democrat here, but as a Libertarian. I really posted it for his explanation of the Deep State which I found most interesting.
The Ukraine spooks are interesting. It's a bit sad many totally dismiss without even viewing.

@puff Libertarianism is just another branch of the republican cult. Same as with the tea party. To claim to be different within the realm of either is a ludicrous delusion. They serve the same party as republicans and their support system. I say to ask the Paul's how that works, but they'll lie to you also.

It's even as ludicrous to see all the people on here who have spread a vast amount of self righteous comments, a lot of which is useless rhetoric, towards this guy, who are as bad and used a sense of indoctrination indicating a delusional reality within themselves. I don't think I've seen 1comment from them on the interviewer which would be deserving in regards to purpose. As I gave hint to. Which is a prime example of how taking in information has become so controlled towards leading to controlling their responses. A lot of people today are incapable of the intellectual understanding and use of context to create narratives. They simple can't recognize and follow such from being so controlled.

In regards to the deep state, there's a large division between those who claim its a conspiracy theory, and those who don't understand the use of the term. In regards to the latter, whether they believe in such or not. That is also due to information control. It's made to be confusing to keep us divided on the issue. Because there is indeed a deep state, group behind the curtain, so to say. A makeup of government owned by corporations and the ruling class using our tax dollars for black operations. The current UAP/UFO issue is a prime example that Dr, Steven Greer has exposed and given it a new name. Which escapes my memory at the moment.

The fascist elements of Ukraine is certainly not a new concern. They were widely dispersed after WWll right along with the German fascist Nazi's and top military brass around the world by the CIA and British intelligence. They have a large presence in Canada, the US, worldwide. They've been operating essentially underground ever since. Reagan began placing figures from them into our judicial system and political arena when he was president. Our current administration is highly involved with a number of high influential fascist and groups of today. We're currently supporting and funding what has become a beckon for fascism in Ukraine since Obama, Biden, and Nuland orchestrated an illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government there in 2014. Ukraine today is every bit of what Germany was in the early to mid 20th century.

And all the western societies are virtually a mere few steps away from being such also. We are staring down the barrel of fascism. They are attempting to run the world like it's all theirs. And war on various levels is their primary means to keep it this way, at our expense. We are helping them to kill ourselves off, whether that be by endless decline to poverty, sending our own off into their wars, those being killed in the wars, global devastation on various fronts.

Quite frankly, as off as the Shaman sounds, who do you think is more mentally unsound? He's obviously quite misguided, but he puts thought into his beliefs. Which to me indicates that he isn't any more misguided than most of the people in the western civilization around me. He actually shows a sense of intelligence I might be able to work with. Is he capable to reach a point to think for himself if mentored properly? My experiences on social media give me no hope for humanity otherwise.

@William_Mary Agree he is no more crazy that those running around mentioning god everyday, and I've put up with them nutters all my life. I strongly believe in the principal of freedom of belief, because I like variety. He is no where near the nuttiest belief I have encounter and existed peacefully alongside, agreeing to disagree.
I dare say he is more likely to be able to prove the existence/ influence of lei lines than a theist can prove the existence of their god.

Don't watch it but feel you can contribute analysis. What are you afraid of?
The interviewer lets his guest talk so he did a good job. Irrelevant if he's a knob really, the interview is not about him.
Can you define deep state? If so please do because he does better than you can I suspect. I suggest you just watch that bit. From 40.43 to 47.45.
PS he does dribble a lot of shite imo, but it's different and I like diversity of opinion.

Thank you for saving me from saying how stupid someone would have to be to have sympathy for an insurrectionist piece of shit who even at his own sentencing hearing in 2021, described his own actions as “indefensible” and said he had “no excuse.”

@ChestRockfield Have you ever been in solitary confinement for an extended time? I have, 40 hours during interrogation training in the army. It's not the best experience I've had.
I think most human rights organisations and laws would deem 10 and a half months as cruel and unusual, even illegal (not that being illegal concerns the Biden admin). Even democrats agree, even though their action dispute this. [nbcnews.com]
The UN position [solitaryconfinement.org]

So in short, yes I do have sympathy, something empathy allows me to employ as I would not wish it upon myself. And I find it a bit sick that some would applaud consciously inflicting mental distress and harm on others, as the effects of prolonged isolation are well documented.
Free Assange

@puff I am not afraid of the content. I choose not to watch it a) Because its crap and I would no more waste my time watching it than watching Jersey Shore and b) The mere act of watching gives it credence (x+1 number of excretions on x or whatever Twitter in now), I also don't watch kiddy porn, snuff movies or knowingly receive stolen goods. No market, no product. And the product these guys are peddling is division, not diversity.

@puff Well when it comes to doing solitary, I've done 12 hours (not my fault) But both you and him were volunteers. You signed up for it and so did he. Did he really think he could storm the capital with a mob shouting "Hang Mike Pence", then pose in front of the camera and think he was going to join the lecture circuit? I have not done time (part from that one night in a police cell) but I know a few that have and you don't get solitary unless you piss them off or you are a danger to yourself and other prisoners. I do not buy that he was targeted for his politics. POs tend to be right-wing.

@puff To equate these guys with Assange is ridiculous. They are not truth warriors, they are Q-Annon lemmings.
But isn't it funny how much the right now cares about prison conditions, now them and theirs are in nick?

@273kelvin Then you are a fool declaring something as crap without even knowing what the content is.
What is the deep state? Define it.
The content is democracy, something so precious to you all, something Trump threatens. Surely you can deduce the so called deep state may affect your democracy, that is why it should be of interest to you, rather than "Don't like him, Crap!"

In short he says;

1. The founding founders recognised tyranny occurred when the 3 powers of the legislators (those who make laws eg Congress/ executive), regulators (those who police laws) and the judiciary (those who met out punishment) were not separated. Eg the English monarchy became tyrannic as the crown centralised the 3 powers. The US Constitution purposely separates them.
2. The government is run by bureaucrats, departments that control all commerce like the FDA, DoD, FBI, CIA etc. These department have a pyramid structure, with the heads appointed by Congress/ President.
3. Over time both senators and presidents have been corrupted, appointing corrupt heads of department. They then fill the upper levels of the pyramid with like minded, corrupt officials. Ones who will oversee the industries they are meant to be regulating to the benefit of those industries.
4. These departments make the laws, regulate themselves whilst also imposing any punishment. The 3 powers are not separated and these departments have become tyrannical.
5. These bureaucrats are not elected, they are appointed by corrupt means. They outlast those that appointed them.

He mentioned there are 500 odd govt departments basically running society over there in the states, headed by people that are compromised by those they are supposed to be regulating. He explains better than I have. Good olde insider trading in Congress is alive and well. People like Fauci also do well investing in their respective industries. The "Deep State".

To compare watching what I posted to crimes, "I also don't watch kiddy porn, snuff movies or knowingly receive stolen goods" is just plain weird. Don't get how you made that leap.

@puff please do not equate you serving your country and your willingness to put your life at risk with a dumb, duped, self indulgent, self centered, attention seeker. You sell yourself short, along with those you served with. We can thank you, we can only condemn him.

@Switchcraft I expect the law to be upheld as well. 10 and a half months is bullshit and considered to be inhumane, even breaking the law by civilised people in many countries. Like water boarding and cluster bombs, locking up journalists and blowing up gas pipelines. Encouraging "regime change" to overthrow democratically elected leaders.
An awful lot of crimes take place, but not many get locked up in solitary for over 10 months. I agree he is mental but perhaps not a severe illness if one at all. But we all knew that, yet they still locked him up in solitary for far too long. They knew it would worsen his mental health. Sadistic and cruel.
Sorry, think thats bullshit for anyone but your extreme Hannibal Lecter types.
NB No need to thank me. Glad I was in during peace time.

@puff I don't know how long he was in solitary, I don't know why he was in solitary. I can theorize reasons people would prefer to be in solitary. Those answers I have been unable to find could change all of our opinions on this matter.
What I do know is attacking your own government and trying to foment a coup is as close as you can get to treason, and if it were up to me, I would have sentenced them all to life without the possibility of parole (and only limited to that because I don't believe in the death penalty), so 41 months, reduced to 27 months, solitary or not, is a slap on the wrist compared to what I think he should have gotten.

@ChestRockfield In recent times left leaning ideologs have also occupied federal government buildings, disrupting business for that day by government. Also happened during BLM protests. This is the American definition of insurrection and justice should have an even hand in a functioning democracy governed by the rule of law.
But that's not happening is it? I think that is what pisses off most, no consistency.

@puff Can you post a link to an article about BLM protesters trying to pull off a coup and instill an unelected person as president? I must have missed that.

@puff I don't need to watch it to know his definition of "deep state". " An international cabal/conspiracy headed by George Soros, the Rothchilds, the Hollywood elite and pedos in the democratic party. Dedicated to the great reset"
How the sane world describes it - "A core residual group of career civil servants and politicians dedicated towards the continuance of stable government"
Now its your turn to define "woke" and "CRT"

@273kelvin Australian not American. We don't have CRT or woke ideology like you do, neither does 99% of the rest of the world. We all just watch America and scratch our heads, watching an empire decline..

@puff I know you are an Aussie, I'm a Brit, not a Yank.

@ChestRockfield Here is the definition of insurrection: an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.
[dictionary.com]
It does not mean attempting a coup but it does mean revolting against govt authority eg occupy government buildings.
All the people who participated in the following linked incident should also be charged with insurrection by definition if Jan 6th protesters were. Justice must have an even hand or there is no Justice. [townhall.com]

@273kelvin Not sure what's happening in the UK but in Australia it is no-where the issue it seems to be in America. Our English definitions of insurrection differ as well compared to the Yanks. You guys seem to be having fun with "Just stop oil" nutters more than anything atm, rather than woke politics or CRT.
NB I suppose you could describe Just stop oil as "woke wankers" as well.
Woke to me all seems about tolerance of ideas and lifestyles.........unless you disagree then tolerance is thrown out and they move onto cancel culture. All about imposing your beliefs on others. Hypocrisy seems to run deep with these people.

@puff Well you seem to have caught the stench at least of the US right definition of woke such as it is.
Here is the real definition and history. "Woke" surrounds the "talk" that black parents have to give their kids regarding any interaction with law enforcement. Black people have to be "woke" to the fact that there may be other motives or prejudices involved if they get pulled over. Also, they should try not to be "upperty" or overly assertive as that can cause an overreaction. This word kinda fell out of use in the black community but was taken up by the left/liberals as being empathetic to the attitudes and experiences of the persecuted or oppressed sections of society. The rights definition is anything/anyone that stands up for said sections.

@273kelvin So it's basically taking off rose coloured glasses and seeing reality, preparing for what people actually do rather than what they say. "Waking up" to the real world. Got it! I give the same talk to new expats to Thailand after living there 20 years.
The problem with this woke stuff is it is intertwined with cancel culture. People need a talk on what to expect when encountering these people also. That if you express an opinion in front of some, they will automatically assume many things about you, mostly negative. I don't like any group or faction imposing their ideology on others with real consequences for noncompliance, especially when the noncompliance is in thought only.
What really cracks me up with CRT (love irony) is what do you think the "5 eyes" security alliance and NATO are all about? When it comes to belief in a right to suppress inferior civilisations that are not European based and impose your will on non compliance to your given superiority, then these 2 organisations are white supremacy embodied. Australia, Canada, UK, US, NZ and NATO countries are the ones who refuse to treat all non European countries as equal and are very reluctant to embrace diversity, seeking to impose their will on all. It is our societies that are the problem when it comes to race relations more than any other on this Earth. We still possess the colonial mindset in our world view. We are exceptional and demand other countries accept that. We defend our critical race status with military might and economic manipulation.
So if we really cared about CRT we would lead by example. But us whitey Caucasian civilisations have a great deal of trouble with self reflection, preferring to lecture other on our superiority instead.
Empathy is a good thing, more is needed.

@puff Not defending them at all. They should be punished for what they did. However, there is a GIGANTIC difference between being disruptive, vandalizing, etc. and overtaking the Capitol building with the express intent of overturning an election while literally threatening to kill the Vice President and other elected officials. If you can't see the difference, you're the one with the bias problem.

@ChestRockfield I see similarities more than difference, this town hall encounter seemed more violent in ways. Quote from my link above.

"This week, LibsofTikTok shared a video of a transgender person urging trans supporters in Tennessee to “beat” and “hurt” people who don’t agree with them.

“Beat them. Team up. Gang together. Get people who agree with you to come and fight. Carry a weapon at all times. And yes, you have to attack the police officer.”
The person who shouted this for sure did not get thrown in solitary. Nutter Shaman did and he actually thanked the police in prayer at the scene of his crime. Uneven justice is a major problem in America today, not a good look and helps feed q-anon types.

@puff We fundamentally disagree. Again, if you can't see the difference, between that, and threatening to kill the Vice President and trying to overthrow the government, you're blind.

@ChestRockfield Has anyone been charged specifically with threatening the VP's life? Or was it a temporary mob chant? Bit like "Let's go Brandon" or "Fuck the police"
This is a very emotional topic for many. I look at history and the challenges nation states have faced when faced with angry mobs storming government centers of power. To be honest when comparing historical events, Jan 6th doesn't really even rate a mention. Future history students would agree.
An easy solution is to standardise voting protocols ie uniform paper ballots across all states, preferably requiring a voter ID (like Australia) because you know the next election will also be disputed, then the next. The election was very close many forget and this sort of thing had happened before with Bush Vs Gore.
Remember before the election Clinton was advising Biden to "never concede". Trump and Hillary are cut from similar cloth, self serving sociopaths both of them. If 2020 had gone Trump's way in a similar manner eg very close, I very much doubt the Biden camp would have been much more gracious in defeat.as Hillary's mindset is also the DNC mindset.

@puff Although nobody has been formally charged with threatening the VP's life, I think that erecting a scaffold outside and an angry mob storming through the capital building shouting "Hang Mike Pence" is a bit of a fucking clue as to their intentions. And yes, many of them have been convicted of violent insurrection.
Yes, there have been close and disputed elections before but to compare Bush Gore or Clinton Trump disputes to what Trump did in 2020 is a bit like this; imagine the championship point in the Australian Open. A very close line call is called "in" and the US player wins. This is disputed by the Australian player and the video replay is consulted. The umpire calls it "in" but instead of accepting defeat graciously and shaking his opponent's hand, the Aussie player calls for a pitch invasion and attempts to hold the umpire hostage. Meanwhile, his team have fabricated fake video evidence to say that it was "out" and wants the umpire to accept that instead. Or else they will hang him!
To underplay Jan 6th does a grave disservice to the people who died and the principles that were trampled on that day. Firstly, this was the first invasion of the capital building since the Brits burnt it down in 1812. So not exactly an everyday occurrence.
Secondly, whilst the US has pulled off some dubious shit over the years with its various foreign policies. It has tried to maintain the image that they are the good guys (well at least better than the other guys). They were John Wayne standing at the jailhouse door with a shotgun whilst the lynch mob came for the prisoner. They stood for democracy and the rule of law. Now we both know that was not always the case but it was what they tried to project and it certainly was how they liked to think of themselves. What Trump and his band of gravy seals did on January 6th was to tarnish that image irreparably The US was no longer John Wayne at the jailhouse door, they were the lynch mob.
The only way the USA can regain a fraction of its former prestige is to prosecute all those involved (especially Trump) to the full extent of the law.

@puff Don't you get it? CRT is a non-issue, it was a post-grad law school course (optional) taught in some colleges. It was never taught in schools but the right seized the very idea that some academics might propose that the land of the free was not all that it pretends to be was a wildfire of an idea that had to be stamped out forthwith. This gave them the excuse to devastate school history books and anything that said such un-American facts as Washington and Jefferson owned slaves was not suitable for their kiddies to read. So now in Texas, the slave trade has to be referred to as "involuntary relocation". But it's the left that is the "cancel culture"?

@273kelvin Gore could have kept challenging and had a good chance of being successful but chose to drop the matter for the good of the country supposedly, suspicious me would not be surprised if other factors were at play also. Clinton lost because she was an atrocious candidate, full of hubris plus people wanted change, which Sanders also offered.
People didn't die Jan 6th, a singular person died. Election results accepted and confirmed.
John Wayne's not the best example, look how he turned out .
Considering all things like lives lost, damage to government property and disruption of government you have to admit Jan 6th pales compared to some protests seen the preceding two years. The whole of Seatle was occupied wasn't it? Yes, it was a serious breech and people should face repercussions but with unbiased, unemotional analysis it was not even really a near miss concerning the downfall of government.
You, like me, are not American and don't live there. Who has damaged the US's international reputation the most do you think; Biden or Trump?
The way I see it Trump is a self serving, self promoting, vain narcistic psycho. But he wants his place in history, being vain, and is pragmatic rather than driven by ideology. Assassinating the Iranian general in Iraq was BS, missiles into Syria for false flag gas attacks BS. But as a foreigner I was pleased to see he was willing to engage with Nth Korea, what I expect from world leaders; diplomacy. I think the world was wary of Trump as he is somewhat unpredictable. He did damage the US's reputation pulling out of all those treaties but he is not the only potus to have reneged on treaties. Trump, overall, diminished American international stature by making it more unpredictable.

Then we have Biden. All we have to do is list his achievements
After a 20 year "war on terror" he gave us the clusterfuck that was the Afghanistan withdrawal. He chooses to use US power to fuel the flames in Ukraine rather than seek peaceful resolution. He blew up Nord Stream, Germany's civilian infrastructure, essential to their economy. Nuland gleefully celebrated that terrorist attack, whilst officially condemning it of course. BRICS has blossomed under Biden, seriously challenging $USD dominance in world trade. Then there is Biden family grifting, obvious to the world audience and now being more accepted by the US public. We, the world, watch a potus whose mental faculties are in obvious decline yet seeks another term. The chance of direct conflict between Russia and the US is already really happening. We are on the losing side, for as an Australian I'm fucked if I will support a fight to ensure NATO's expansion. Nor will many others.
Trump may have diminished American prestige, but Biden sure as shit hasn't rebuilt it any. We all watch empire in decline.

@puff Gore contested legally just as Trump did. Gore lost his legal battle as did Trump 61 times. This is the same as the VR in our hypothetical tennis match. The fact that Gore did not whinge like an entitled toddler and plot a coup as Trump did should not cause someone to say "Suspicious me would not be surprised if other factors were at play" Just because he did the right thing.
According to the bipartisan Jan 6th committee, 7 people died as a result of that day. Four in the crowd and 3 police officers, 138 seriously injured (so much for Blue Lives Matter). The fact that 2 of them were suicides related to the PSD they suffered is something I would have thought a veteran like yourself would be loath to dismiss off-hand.
[nytimes.com]
I used a John Wayne character as a metaphor, not the actor himself as I was talking about image and perception, not reality.
As for other riots, what can I say? Not everyone is fortunate to live in such a relatively content and stable country as yourself. Lots of countries have had riots erupt when people get so pissed off that they take to the streets. America is far from the exception and there have been many over the years, including "The Whiskey Rebellion" that had to be quelled by Washington himself. My city of Liverpool had one in the 80s and the French have made it into an art form. Most historians tend to blame the govt or the conditions that led to such civil unrest rather than the rioters themselves. (Trump was potus during the Seattle riot)*
What happened on Jan 6th was not a riot. To say so is like trying to equate a bar fight to an MMA cage fight. People did not wake up one morning and just decide to storm the capital. No, they were brought there by Donald J. Trump. They were directed to march on the capital building by Donald J. Trump who told them to "Fight like hell to save their country". What the fuck did he expect them to do, hand in a petition and stand outside singing "We shall overcome"? Couple that with the meetings members of his team had with the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers but most importantly with the fake elector certificates from the disputed (in his head) states that were supposed to give Pence the excuse not to certify the election. Thereby allowing Trump to invoke martial law. (Just because an attempted crime is inept, does not make it still a crime and ineptitude is par for Trump) All this is evident from the under-oath testimony of his own staff and appointees to the Jan 6th committee, which you would know if you had cared to consult it rather than the ravings of a wannabe Q-Annon werewolf.
Which brings us to clusterfucks. There was no way the withdrawal from Afghanistan was ever going to be peaceful. Biden delayed it by 6 months to give it a chance but the negotiated release of 5,000 Taliban by Trump meant that it was always going to be like the fall of Saigon. (just one more example of Trump pissing in the well) Also, I reject that the Ukraine war is all NATO's fault. This is blatant Russian propaganda and if you look at the details of the Muller report and not Barr's whitewashed synopsis. You will see the direct connection between Trump's team and Putin. Most notably through convicted felon and undeclared Russian agent Gen Mike Flynn. A man so unsuitable for office that Obama personally urged Trump not to bring him into his administration under any circumstances. Everybody outside of MAGAworld knows that Trump is Putin's botty-boy and the division Trump fostered is continuing evidence of that.
It would take too long for me to list all of Trump's crappy time as POTUS, From his supposed engagement with N. Korea which (apart from photo ops) achieved exactly what in terms of reducing their development of missiles, nuclear weapons or oppression of their own people? To his absolute shit-show of his COVID handling. I did not follow the polls but I did follow the online betting of the 2020 election. Trump went from 8/13 in Dec 2019 to 9/2 in August. Keep in mind this is in a 2-horse race where the incumbent had a historic 3-1 advantage. Biden's appeal was "I'm not Trump" and will continue to be "not Trump" if the GOP are stupid enough to put him up against Biden again.

*NB How many riots has Biden had to deal with during his term?

@273kelvin
Insurrection? Not according to the FBI
[reuters.com]
Why have none been charged with insurrection?
[click2houston.com]
The Afghanistan withdrawal was a clusterfuck. Aussies died there as well................what for? 20 years. How many billions of dollars worth of kit did Biden leave them? And never forget after 13 lost their life via suicide bomb Biden vowed revenge, got his target then bragged that cell was taken out via drone, big tough guy. Pity 7 kids died along with some water bottles.
Don't you love a military parade? Makes you proud of people's sacrifice?
[edition.cnn.com]
Successful withdrawal my arse.
That is all Biden ever had. "I'm not Trump and at least I'm not Hillary"

@puff You can nit-pick but I call "Seditious conspiracy" insurrection in as many words
From Wiki
"On March 2, 2022, Oath Keeper Joshua James pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy, admitting in his plea that "from November 2020 through January 2021, he conspired with other Oath Keeper members and affiliates to use force to prevent, hinder and delay the execution of the laws of the United States governing the transfer of presidential power."[122][123] Stewart Rhodes and Kelly Meggs, also of the Oath Keepers, were found guilty of seditious conspiracy on November 29, 2022.[124] Rhodes was sentenced to 18 years and Meggs to 12 years.[125]

On June 6, 2022, five members of the Proud Boys—their leader Enrique Tarrio, together with Joseph Biggs, Zachary Rehl, Ethan Nordean and Dominic Pezzola—were indicted for seditious conspiracy.[126] On May 4, 2023, all but Pezzola were convicted. A few months later, they were sentenced."

Ask yourself who negotiated that withdrawal. Who decided it was a good idea to let 5,000 Taliban go free before pulling out?

@273kelvin If you want to indict a president, you could try aiding and abetting an enemy by making them the most well equipped army in the region overnight. That one is 100% Biden's baby. A more solid case than any bought against Trump by democrats so far.
They prosecuted some nutters good. Do you think I would defend them?
On this one I'll trust the FBI analysis rather than democratic supporters which is; There was no insurrection on January the 6th.

@puff And Trump 6` 3" and 215lbs

@273kelvin Here's an epiphany moment for you. Concluding Biden is a corrupt career public servant who managed to punch way above his station does not make one a Trump supporter. Don't support any narcistic politicians of which there are plenty all sides of politics. And unless examples are made of in your face corruption like Biden family grifting, they will keep coming.