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I'm unaware of any religious advocate,now or in the past, who has been able, or even attempted, to rationally explain the originating foundation of the God leading them. Obviously, a super-natural extra-terrestrial being didn’t simply appear out of thin air; instantly enabled with such unfathomable powers of claimed ability and super-natural accomplishments.

How can you believe in a God with no logical explanation of origination? Nobody , I'm aware of, has yet attempted to broach this question.

Anyone in Agnostic.com ever hear of an attempt to come up with an explanation? I'd love to hear about it if it exists.

raymondahult 5 Oct 21
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0

In order to believe in God you have to let go of any rationality or logic. That's how.

0

The infinite regress problem has already been mentioned by @Switchcraft.

The acceptance of the existence claim of God without supporting falsifiable evidence is an exercise in absurdity.

The question about origination makes an unwarranted assumption about the nature of time.

I have yet to find any theist who can even understand any of the above three ideas, let alone discuss them in any meaningful fashion. /@Betty

My opinion~
Children are a curious lot. Why is the sky blue, why do birds fly, where do babies come from, who made the first person, why did someone die, what happens after you/they die...etc. Children believe the adults that give them answers.

When adults don't have an answer, they make one up. With a bit of imagination, a lie can be fabricated to satisfy the curious child and those who are easily influenced.

When humans came together to establish communities and develop language, the ability to communicate with each other became easier. The sharing of ideas and stories of their adventures became a form of entertainment. An exaggerated story gains attention and made-up stories if anywhere near plausible (within their time period) could be accepted as truth.
An example would be the original Grimms Fairy Tales. They were intended to scare children from wandering away from the safety of their villages/communities. To this day there are people who believe in monsters, ghosts, witches, demons...etc.

It is not difficult to imagine the questions children asked about the origin of humans would result in the fabrication of a story that would eventually be used to explain the unknown. Hence the creation of an all-powerful deity/deities would be an answer to many of the questions.

From there it is easy for me to see the progression that eventually became an accepted truth and why it is so difficult for so many to let it go. All it took was an opportunist hungry for attention, greedy for control, power, and wealth to take it to the next level and we got a Religion.

Imagination as with everything has a positive or negative outcome. The creation of Religion in the long run has done more harm than good.

Humans have evolved, learned, and developed scientific methods to debunk many of the accepted beliefs. Fear is a powerful motivator and it has been used very effectively by Religious leaders and their followers to maintain control of those who are more easily influenced.

3

God had to be created by some entity. Just another farcical brick in the wall.

0

I have most certainly heard an explanation, although it’s even more absurd than the stories in the Buybull….👀
At has been proposed that god created itself. This prospect has been dubbed “self manifestation” theory…..🤠

2

Well there is a problem. What is meant by God? Simplistically s/he is portrayed as an infinite being watching over humans and dwelling in both this world and a world after death. This is clearly an invention of people. But we perceive a universe and we cannot help but wonder what created the universe. Is the creator a god? It might be easier to say that the universe is an illusion but one still has to wonder what created the illusion. A creator of the universe is something way beyond our comprehension and it is terribly presumptuous to imagine it would have any interest in us.

0

Sorry to say this, mate, but I can't help feeling that there is something disingenuous about you.

Ryo1 Level 8 Oct 22, 2023

>>>I'm unaware of any religious advocate, now or in the past, who has been able, or even attempted, to rationally explain the originating foundation of the God leading them.
Of course, you are aware. You're an ex-theist, right? The originating foundation of 'once your God leading you' was surely contemplated and explained by yourself according to your perception of your relationship with your God, as well as by your fellow worshippers. So, tell us. What was the rational explanation you reached, then?

2

I was told often that god has always existed. When you are a believer you simply take this in because you know the older people believe. Once you do a further study gods become imaginary.

2

As I understand the theistic concept of God this being has necessary existence and so could never not exist. Accordingly, there was no origination. This is the conclusion of St. Thomas' first three ways (arguments for the existence of God) and also of St. Anselm's ontological argument where God (= that than which nothing greater can be conceived) cannot be conceived to not-exist. Also this seems consistent with the biblical claim of the eternality of God, and so it would be wrong-headed for the believer to attempt an explanation of God's origin.

2

One Humanist (or Human centered ) view of this is that before God appeared, people were beginning to thank each other where appropriate AND they already had leaders and " lords ' in charge of them. Add puffs of un-realism & spiritualism plus a choice of omnificence that could not be proved wrong so that their new leaders did not get many awkward questions and so became unelectable and "permanent" .

1

You are not alone. The prime mover arguments have been going on, in town hall debates, and second rate religious publications, it seems like, as endlessly as the cycles of the universe.

But it should always be remembered. That, even if they could prove the need for an intelligent actor to create a universe, and that it could not emerge from, say, a previous universe by natural laws. ( Which they can't.) That still would not get them to "their" God, or even a theist god. As someone said. "Why not just universe farting pixies." It is therefore quite useless as a theist argument. just a clear proof of how one delusion leads to another, when you start down that path.

One idea that it is fun to play with, though only play, because there is nothing to be gained by it. Is the idea held by some cosmologists, that there was no "time" before the universe. That time like space started with the Big Bang, therefore it is pointless to talk about before the big bang. Or that as some have the universe must exist, because nothing is not possible, and if something exists, why not this thing. But if you go down those sort of rabbit holes, be wary off your sanity.

I agree that even if successful prime mover arguments do not get the theistic god. For all the arguments entail, the unmoved mover might as well be an all powerful devil.

I think that Time like any other infinity is simply that we cannot remotely understand it and logically it and them cannot actually exist in the form we perceive them. To my mind the fact of infinities is the greatest proof that we live in an illusion.

I think, therefore I am….😇

4

The Big Bang is still an idea. Darwinism is still a theory. Atheists are equally unable to explain, let alone proving how everything came to exist in the universe and on Earth.

Meanwhile, this is how God on Twitter is feeling right now.

Ryo1 Level 8 Oct 22, 2023

Are you serious ?. There is no such thing as "Darwinism". Evolution is a well proven scientific theory and the big bang definitely happened. What existed before the big bang is the puzzle and will probably never be known.

@Moravian 🤪🤪🤪

@FvckY0u Proven;- Adjective. Demonstrated by evidence or argument to be true or existing. Like Evolution .

I think sooner or later the Big Bang must be thrown out as already they have discovered galaxies that predate the BB in birth of their creation. The next generation of space telescope will find galaxies formed 16 billion years ago and maybe evidence of a billion billion sized entire galaxy that blew up creating a BB. But ultimately we'll discover it is all an illusion.

@rogerbenham Science is never conclusive.

@Ryo1 Agreed

@Ryo1 Never conclusive? Can we all agree that there’s 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom in a single molecule of water? 🤔

@Ryo1, @Moravian Big bang is merely theory. One that has already all but been disproven by JWT……🤨
Even the theory of universe expansion is likely false……🤔
I’ll give you the nod on Darwinism as fact though…..🤠

@Buck A valid scientific theory can never become a fact, as there is always the possibility that a future explanation will better match newly discovered facts. [Gould SJ. Evolution as fact and theory, 1981]

@Ryo1 So my definition of a water molecule is not indeed a fact?!🤨

@Ryo1 Gould can make all the fancy quips he desires. Evolution has been verified time and again. Even in humans……🤷🏻♂️

@Buck JWT ?. Well the big bang and inflation, when the universe expanded rapidly, is still accepted by physicist Brian Cox. He fronted a fascinating recent BBC programme on the universe. The latest thinking is that ripples in an energy field created the first matter and later the first stars. There may even have been a previous universe. The old belief that there was nothing before the big bang is now discredited and I found it hard to get my head round the theory that it all started from an incredibly small dense particle.

@Moravian James Webb Telescope

@Buck H2O is a chemical formula. Mathematially proven but not necessarily in science.

@FvckY0u A good answer to Moravian .

I would suggest that "a well proven scientific theory"is Darwins evolutionary one.

@FvckY0u, @Ryo1 It obviously has sometimes to be temporarily conclusive so that things can move forward.

@Ryo1 Now you’re just talking shit, whatever…..👀

@Buck
Representing water as H2O is chemistry that is closely connected with mathematics, therefore conclusive, or is it?. Questioning if water is wet or not is science therefore inconclusive. 😆

@Mcfluwster A fair point.

@Ryo1 I cannot agree with this, but maybe your point needs further explanation. Or do you mean science is not conclusive because once one question is answered, there is still a million more.

@Switchcraft
There are numerous documents and articles about why science is never conclusive.

@Ryo1 Mathematic is a branch of science closely connected to numbers . Having said that I have heard the statement that

ALL SCIENCE IS MATHEMATICS.

The inter-dependance between the two is also evident.
Maths can be subjected to experiment and theory etc. It tends to be more evidently conclusive.

2

If theists are unable to explain the origin of God, are atheists able to explain the origin of nature, matter, energy? As far as I know both sides assume that their X, which lies at the bottom of all things, is eternal, has no origin that needs to explained. Everybody has to assume that something has always been there

4

The understanding of a religious literalist’s concept of God won’t be found by looking for a rational path that they took to get there. That’s not the path they took.

That doesn’t mean it is beyond your rational understanding - just beyond theirs. As the saying goes, “You can’t reason a person out of a position they were never reasoned into.”

That’s not how they got there. They got their by faith. And the faith mechanism is not beyond understanding if you study the psychology behind it.

skado Level 9 Oct 22, 2023

And sociology.

@Ryo1

Yes, and biology.

@skado
Yes, and Neuroscience.

@Ryo1

Definitely, and Anthropology, and Comparative Mythology, and Art Theory, and probably a few others..

3

Oh sure he/she/it did!!!

That's Sarcasm

3

I'm pretty sure they just say nothing created their God, he just always existed.

As has nature and the laws that govern it.

@jlynn37 Well, they obviously don't believe that, though.

0

And, as far as your first statement "religious advocate..." I only advocate for the, almost 2000 year old usage for the word religion that has definition preserved in biblical text.

Religion comes from etymology of being about taking an oath of responsibility to be careful opposite of neglect.

...popular etymology among the later ancients (Servius, Lactantius, Augustine) and the interpretation of many modern writers connects it with religare "to bind fast" (see rely), via the notion of "place an obligation on," ... In that case, the re- would be intensive. Another possible origin is religiens "careful," opposite of negligens.

Religion ... pure and faultless is this: to help widows and orphans in need and avoiding worldly corruption. James 1:27

When ever it comes to illogical atheist types wanting to insert a god thingie to redefine religion to as to be defined as, "sarcasm worship and sarcasm praise to the non-existent philosophical flying spaghetti monster sky God making fun of Christians that doesn't know Jesus is lucipher the devil meme mind virus organism that evolved to mimic homo sapien form ", scholars would say this definition is nonsense.

...however, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion.[2][3]

Morreall, John; Sonn, Tamara (2013). "Myth 1: All Societies Have Religions". 50 Great Myths of Religion. Wiley-Blackwell. pp. 12–17. ISBN 978-0-470-67350-8.

Nongbri, Brent (2013). Before Religion: A History of a Modern Concept. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-15416-0.

So, spaghetti monster worship not required to do religion of having empathy to help people.

Word Level 8 Oct 21, 2023
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Please feel free to look over and join my group. It should be about to provide you with understanding that ends christianity, at least when people understand. And, it ends atheism. As I say, it's not magical information, people would need to learn and understand evolution of meme for which once they know the information it makes it reasonable to not be Christian worshipping lucipher the devil meme organism under a guise. And, for atheist to know they are a God and the atheist can believe in themselves to no longer be atheist.

You can click here to go to my group here on agnostic. Or, search the group titles for this name.
"Illogical atheists guide for ending Christianity "

Word Level 8 Oct 21, 2023

But also, @raymondahult, don't do that.

1

Will that ever be answered. Who created the creator? If we ever figure out the beginning what was there before the beginning began?

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