The joy of planning a wedding...
You're a woman and you've met the love of your life - a man whom you plan to marry.
or
You're a man and you've met the love of your life - a woman whom you plan to marry.
You are young and in love and you are both planning the wedding and the reception with the help of your friends and family. The big day is arranged, there's just the matter of the cake.
You're in a town you don't know but you find a cake shop on the high street that caters to special events such as weddings and birthdays.
It's perfect. So you enter the shop.
You both have fun picking a cake and you ask the shop assistant for the cake to be customised with the inscription: 'to celebrate the wedding of David and Julie'.
Your request is met with a puzzled look by the shop assistant who pulls a face and smiles.
She asks if the names represent a man and woman.
You both laugh, and reply, "yes, of course, it's us. It's our wedding cake."
The shop assistant pulls a face again and politely informs you that they won't decorate the cake but they can sell it to you undecorated. She also suggests finding another shop to have it decorated.
Confused, you ask what the problem is.
The shop assistant replies that to decorate the cake as requested would conflict with her faith because the marriage is between a man and a woman and in their faith only lesbian unions are sanctioned. Heterosexual marriage is an abomination.
She smiles and politely recommends finding another cake shop.
You leave the shop in disbelief. You are both good, decent people but the shop owner does not approve. Can that be legal? Did we break a law?
You both leave the shop and look at it from the sidewalk. It looks like a cake shop open to the public. You try another cake shop in another town but the same thing happens.
What do you do?
2
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I am an atheist, and I do a lot of work providing social assistance, often crisis type work. Can I refuse to assist the religious as it goes against my beliefs?
Rugglesby
Level 8
June 5, 2018
0
That's your choice.
If you're offering a service to the public, I'd say no.
I'm guessing you're straight and you've never been discriminated against yourself. If so, you have straight privilege.
This cake shop was homophobic. Pure and simple. It was not about the design of the cake. The shop owner did not approve of gay people. He justified his stance using his faith.
There used to be signs in English boarding house windows that said "No Blacks, No dogs, No Irish".
Luckily the law intervened, because personally I would not want to live in a world that condones bigotry.
Though very disappointed with the ruling, after reading it I had to agree that if one, The First Amendment of the Bill of Rights conflicted with two, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, that alone, depending as in this case, on the circumstances, would allow the Amendment to trump (very intended) the later, more specifically focused act. They considered the aggressive way it was pursued and with an anti-religious motive as well.
I don't like religion interfering with or annoying me in the course of daily life any less than any other typical non-believer. For optimal progress toward secularity and away from superstition requires education and the most effective form of education is example. It is the constitution that provides now and will more so in the future, protection of non-belief on a par with belief.
One other part of this with which I was uncomfortable was the over-kill aspect and I think it worked against the case ultimately. If a merchant or service business breaks the law and discriminates about who is entitled to all of their services and who is not, it isn't egregious enough to warrant six figure lawsuits and devastating of their lives as punishment. It should be an 'in proportion' fine and either suspension or revocation of their business license. Being put out of business or forced in suspension to modify what is offered to all should be sufficient.
Silver1wun
Level 7
June 5, 2018
0
What would Mr. and Mrs. Molotov do?
MrLink
Level 8
June 4, 2018
0
That is the point. The fictional couple in my post are ordinary, non confrontational people, gentle polite people (like the real life gay couple).
You learned a lesson. Just go and get married forget about all the fluff.
PickledRick
Level 8
June 4, 2018
0
Avoid creating an issue by ordering a "tiered celebration cake", period. How many wedding cakes have you seen with the names of the couple ON the cake? As a former pastry chef, I can tell you that in 32 years of making wedding cakes, I only put names on a handful of those cakes, and of those, it was most likely the surname chosen. Bigotted bakers are in the minority anyway imho, and I'd take my business where it was appreciated and welcome.
MSALLAYNEOUS
Level 4
June 4, 2018
1
The cake shop created the issue.
The shop shouldn't offer the service of cake decoration to the public if there are sections of the public the shop doesn't approve of.
You try another cake shop in another town but the same thing happens.
Except that's not what happened. '“All the other venues we went to never asked anything about our personal lives,” Craig said.'
cmadler
Level 7
June 4, 2018
0
My example was hypothetical.
I would simply go to another cake shop and not give it another thought.
indirect76
Level 7
June 4, 2018
1
Go to court? Of course, you'd have to find someone to make your cake first. The whole thing is stupid. So, a Jewish baker could refuse a cake for a Christian wedding? Or a Muslim baker could refuse a cake for a Jewish couple? What about racists and non-white people? I can't believe they could be so short-sighted as to allow this!
Tomfoolery33
Level 9
June 4, 2018
1
Thank you.
I can't believe how many 'agnostics' and 'progressives' are defending this cake shop.
Like you say. Where is the line drawn?
Why oh why would you want to give them your money? Go buy some tier stands at the Dollar Store & a bunch of cupcakes, and some fresh flowers plus greenery.
AnneWimsey
Level 9
June 4, 2018
3
It was their special day. They were only doing what millions of other people do.
@Ellatynemouth so because of "a special day" you support a bunch of rcists, haters, ugliness with your hard-earned money? Vote with your feet!
You twisted my words.
The law should compel people that offer a service to the 'public' to serve everyone equally, whether they like them or not.
Otherwise it opens a can of worms. Where will it end? 'No Blacks. No Irish'?
@Ellatynemouth I actually, as a former business owner, support the right of a business owner to refuse service to anyone for any reason.....to force service is ludicrous...who would actually be satisfied with such an arrangement, whatever the cost? Prosecute under hate speech statutes, picket, boycott if someone is offensive to any group, as always has been the option, but under your theory, even "no shirt no shoes" would be prosecutable....fascism indeed!
That sounds like straight, white privilege talking.
@Ellatynemouth I agree with you on the 'where will it end'. We are on the slippery slope now!! Hang on who knows where it will lead us! No black, hispanic, gay, foreign, immigrants because it offends my religious beliefs! We are in for one hell of a fight...as if we weren't already.
Thank you. I'm dismayed to see so many defending this man.
@patchoullijulie nobody is more pro-immigrant, pro-LGBT, etc etc etc than I am, but owning a business, 80 hours a week or more of grinding work, worry, constant problem-solving...and the last bastion of "making it" open to ordinary people. Well, if you want to turn away customers, and make yourself notorious for doing so, knowing full well other businesses will be more than happy to fill that void.....too bad so sad when you fail!
@AnneWimsey I'm not sure I understand your post. Can you explain further, thanks.
@patchoullijulie you lose business when you treat customers/potential customers poorly, and word gets around, never mind being on the nightly news. And there are always other businesses ready & willing to cater to a customer's needs! These things take care of themselves........
@AnneWimsey Ah thank you. That's what I thought you were saying but I just needed clarification. My first thoughts were the same but then I remembered days gone by in the American south and South Africa where apartheid operated in both societies where discrimination was sanctioned and it took decades (one could even say centuries) to eliminate. I don't think that the 'let them fail' strategy worked in those cases. What do you think?
@patchoullijulie apartheid warped everything it touched. Businesses fail with great speed nowadays, with the internet allowing disgruntled customers a wide audience.
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