"I am totally sick of people telling women what they should wear "
You nailed the problem with the burqa right there.

@Gareth you do understand that many Muslim women wear the veil by choice, don’t you?

@Cassiopeia Many women stay in abusive relationships by choice too. I see little girls aged no more than 5 or 6 in headscarves where I live. You can train people to make certain choices but I don't think it's either healthy or desirable.

@Gareth I think that’s offensive to those who choose to wear veils, as is they are incapable of independent thought.

@Cassiopeia Religious people incapable of independent thought? Surely not!

It's not only a head-dress, it's a face covering.
My concern is whether women are wearing them voluntarily or under duress.

@Gareth Depends on your definition of duress. I'm sure, like other things, there are women who wear them under duress. I do believe that the majority wear them because it's their culture to wear them and wear them because they want to.

The reason why I say it depends on your definition is because a lot of Muslim women are taught from an early age to wear them for modesty. Some would consider indoctrination as duress.

@kiramea Let's look at it this way: what would happen to them if they stopped wearing it? If they received any criticism or punishment at all that would amount to duress for me. And I believe that the vast majority would.

@Gareth That makes absolutely no sense. When a person who is used to doing something is suddenly stopped from doing it, it usually gives them some duress/stress. Forcing them to stop wearing a burka/hijab would amount to the same thing. As for the "punishment or criticism", I already stated that a small minority is forced. I know many muslims (men and women), and not all women wear them. Also, I would think that NOT wearing them in predominantly Muslim countries would give them more duress than wearing them.

I stand with my original statement; men and women should be allowed to wear anything they want. As long as I'm not required to wear something I'm okay with it.

@kiramea Which closes the circle.

I hear that. I want to start by saying this is not my argument, but an argument that I have heard about people who are saying what you are saying. The argument is, that you are basically morally blackmailing people into never being allowed to criticise this religion. Criticism does not mean it is ok to go up to someone and remove their burka.
I hear your point but must confess that I am torn between the 2 arguments. I agree Boris is a twat though

@RobH86 saying that someone looks like a letterbox is not criticising their religion; it’s ridiculing them with an aimed insult.

@Cassiopeia Its a really tough one for me. The idea that someone hides their face from society to be closer to a god that just does not exist seems beyond stupid and people should have the freedom to criticise this idea. However, criticising ideas, and criticising people for those ideas are 2 different things

Which is the whole point. If I want to wear a plastic bag on my head and you don't like it - you should get a life, pal.

@skye724 It won't be the whole point at all though until all women have an absolutely free and unconstrained choice in the matter.

@Gareth The burka is clothing. No man gets to decide what a woman's freedom means. Your opinion is what it is, but it is not a fact that a woman isn't free if she wears anything in particular.

How many times must it be pointed out? : IT MANY NOT BE HER DECISION

@Gareth There is no need to yell at me. I do understand that in many cases it is not a choice and I don't see that banning it will help those women. In fact it will probably make their lives more miserable than it probably already is. I am not defending the burka in any way shape or form. As a decent human being I find it repulsive. I am merely pointing out that the banning of the burka infringes on our civil rights....a slippery slope. Perhaps I could have stated that a little more clearly.

@patchoullijulie I'm sorry for yelling, but I get so sick of seeing "women should be able to wear what they want" in regard to a dehumanising symbol of female oppression that they are effectively forced into.
If you doubt the truth of that, look at the 3 billion or so women who are non-Muslim and under no external compulsion to wear a niqab or burka. How many do so? Not one, as far as I'm aware.

Harsh (but maybe fair). What would you say about a muslim woman who claimed she wanted to wear it out of choice?

@RobH86 I say the same about any non-Muslim woman who wanted to wear a burqa out of choice - "I can hardly believe there are more than a dozen of you on the whole planet".

@Gareth, @RobH86 It's never a true choice. At the very least, women are brainwashed into wearing it. Talk to some ex-Muslims.

@TheDarkNolanite ...said the white American guy.
I am a woman. I am married to a Muslim. I don’t wear anything on my head. It’s not obligatory in the Koran and my husband wouldn’t dare push that on me, because he knows I don’t believe and don’t want to wear it. It is a choice for many women in the West who wear one. A choice that I respect. Men...please stop speaking on behalf of women!

@Livia What does my skin color have to do with the way I criticize bad ideas (of which Islam is the mother lode of)?

@Gareth Just because its a small number it does't mean the number is zero. Again, if a woman really wanted to wear one, why shouldn't she have that choice? (I am not yet swayed either way)

@TheDarkNolanite because the society we live in allows white men to exercise their agency, but restricts agency for others. White men are in a position of power that minorities and women are not allowed to occupy. When a white man uses that agency to criticize women’s clothing choices and thinks for them (she is oppressed) and speaks for them (it’s never a true choice...women are brainwashed) you actually are using your agency and power to patronize us, and remove our voices. Women have personalities and are human beings and can speak for themselves as to whether we are oppressed or caught up in some kind of mind-control - yes, even women of color and Muslim women can think and speak. So please, don’t attempt to do it for us. You couldn’t fit a stereotype of chauvinism better if you tried.

@Livia Again- talk to some ex-Muslims. Google "Yasmine Mohammed." Look at her Twitter. She has stories to tell.

@Livia Stop ignoring the plight of women who have it forced on them.

@TheDarkNolanite No, you stop talking like all women have it forced on them. Some do, some don’t. What you are failing to understand is that not all Muslim women fit your preferred stereotype: Oppressed, suppressed, compliant and meekly brainwashed. Some women wear it because they feel naked without it. Perhaps like if you had no socks and sneakers; it would make you feel uncomfortable. For other busy mums it’s convenient - throw it on and no one can see you are still in PJs. For others, it’s a statement of their inner feelings on wishing to be viewed by others as modest and pious. At the end of the day you have a completely generalized idea of what it is to be a Muslim woman, and you are using confirmation bias in your example of Ms.Mohammad to back up your belief. You don’t get to speak for any women, especially not women of color or Muslim women because you are not them - in fact you couldn’t be more removed from their experiences.

@Livia "Some women wear it because they feel naked without it."

Textbook brainwashing. Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness.

@Livia You just compared the burka to my socks and sneakers. Only one is a necessity in the 21st Century. I don't think you could be any more of a regressive leftist if you tried.

@TheDarkNolanite Have a prize! Has the penny only just dropped? Let me spell it out. Marxist, trans-inclusive feminist, pro-black empowerment, LGBTQ rights and against Anti-Semitism and Islamaphobia and against the white capitalist patriarchy. Seems you are a bit slow on the uptake ?

@Livia Islam is against LGBTQ rights. Just FYI.

@TheDarkNolanite So are all Abramic religions. That’s what’s wrong with religion. It’s shit. I don’t believe. But I am not going to discriminate against people on the basis of their faith. Any faith. Many feminists are not trans-inclusive. They exclude trans-women from meetings and other spaces. Just because people are fucking stupid and choose to hate each other, it doesn’t mean that I have to be a turd and join in with the prejudice!

@Livia No one is discriminating against Muslims by criticizing their faith. You sound like Ben Affleck.

I think I will. Do they have them at Costco?

Isn't the whole problem that we can't be sure that the wearer actually wants to be covered? Should you have to wear what I want you to wear?

@Gareth Maybe they can put messages on the backs of their burkas. “I want to wear this. Y do u care?”

@Hermit Why do I care about human rights? Why don't you?

I have biker friends who are in no way racist. They object to being told to take off their helmet when they pay for petrol yet burkas are ok.

@273kelvin

I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't object to a double standard yet it exists.

@273kelvin perhaps your biker friends are burly, intimidating men and women in niqabs are, you know, women and not intimidating in size etc.

I love trouble. I will just go on the record and ask for some right now.

@skye724
Ha ha Be careful what you wish for bra! ?

@Flyingsaucesir I feel completely comfortable with my visualizations and wishes.

@skye724
Hell, you don't have to go looking for trouble. Trouble will find you.

@Flyingsaucesir Trouble and I are long time friends.

Seriously- who really cares if the burka look makes a middle aged American male feel uncomfortable. Men in shirts and ties make me feel uncomfortable all day, but I just live with it.

@Livia That's not a good response. It's tantamount to saying "I got my own problems, who cares about yours?". Coercion and depersonalisation of women in communities that have a history of treating them as second-class citizens makes me uncomfortable too. If you want to make a false equivalence with your phobia of neckties, so be it. That's on you.

@Gareth
Lots of women who wear it are not oppressed- it’s their choice. They like to make a statement about their piety and modesty. Who are you to say they cannot choose to display that through what they wear?
As someone who has lived in the Middle East and has relatives in the Middle East, I can say that on many occasions the women rule the roost. They can have agency and exercise their power in ways that aren’t yours culturally and so you don’t see it. Muslim women were way ahead of Christian ones as since the beginning they have had the right to own property and run a business.
You Americans confuse religion with cultural practice and have an opinion on things you don’t know.
Here’s the rules: men shouldn’t tell women how to be. Whites shouldn’t tell blacks how to be. Very simple. Non-Muslims shouldn’t make assumptions about people based on clothing. It’s not that hard.
I absolutely wasn’t making false equivalency about white middle aged men in suits. I work with them all day and tbh, their behavior is sub par. Sexist, entitled, patronizing- they actually do harm. The literally make me feel uncomfortable- looking at my tits when they talk etc. I have never had a woman in a hijab /burka do anything like that to me.

@Livia I think this is not the right forum to bring "piety" to the table as an argument nor to use Christianity as your baseline for favourable comparisons. I don't need Middle Eastern family dynamics or Islamic history to be womansplained to me either. I'm not the American in this conversation, so apparently that missile was misdirected. I'm sorry that you find the men in your environment objectionable, but that's not something that reflects on me, or can serve as the basis for discussion on an unrelated matter.
All that aside, I absolutely reject your "rules" that I cannot comment on any institution that I am not a member of. You don't have to be a slaveholder to be able to say that slavery is wrong. I don't have to be a Muslim to opine that its treatment of women is pernicious. I believe what you are propounding is called identity politics and I reject it. I believe that in the Muslim world there is a huge amount of disempowerment, control and oppression of women and I will speak out against it whether or not I am white, male, Western or atheistic.

Why? I don't disagree with you by the way, but why ban it

@RobH86 Banning all face / identity concealment is non-discriminatory, whereas banning the Burka / Niqab could be interpreted by some as being anti-Muslim.
My biggest objection to the Burka and the Niqab is that they facilitate the subjugation of women, keeping them subservient to men, limiting women's role in society to serving men and rearing followers of "the prophet".
Face concealment hides the injuries of abused muslimas.
Face concealment is rude, and interferes with effective communication.
Face concealment makes it difficult to identify a lawbreaker, hence is a security issue.

Those are my main reasons for supporting a face / identity concealment ban.
There are several other reasons, I'm sure that you have some of your own.