Religions vs Cult
What is the distinction?
1
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37 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Cults are a narrow, more radical subset, of religions.
Heraclitus
Level 8
Oct 30, 2018
1
But who decides? You say they're more radical yet hear Christians calling Mormons a cult.
@paul1967 There is a certain subjectivity in the analysis, of course. But I once heard a Mormon history of religions professor state in the mid-70s that Mormonism once would have qualified as a cult, but then about half qualified as a cult and appeared to be in transition. Mormonism hasn't changed much since the 70's, however. They still have their secret temple rituals, underwear, and oaths, for example.
@Heraclitus ALL religions have their own rituals of sorts just as do 'cults,' they all have a subject of/for worshipping/veneration, they all 'expect' their followers to provide financial support, they all DICTATE how their followers should live, think and act, ergo there is very little or no difference at all between organized religious beliefs and ' cultism.'
@Triphid First of all, you apparently did not read the link, or did not read it carefully, because it does not define a cult so simplistically. Secondly, you apparently did not read what I said because I did not mention any of those things. Not all religions have secret private temple ceremonies and rituals, or secret underwear, or secret (death) oaths. Not all religions have secret handshakes. Not all religions have a living prophet, either, that one is obligated to obey at the cost of one's salvation. Those sort of things constitute a kind of modern Gnosticism that claims that only an elite that has access to a private secret knowledge that, in turn, is necessary for salvation. Again, there is a subjectivity to the analysis of what exactly constitutes a cult. It is not clearcut. But, to claim that all religions are cults is to strip the word of all meaning. Here is another link that may help clarify:
@Heraclitus I am more than cognizant of the meaning/s and terminologies in reference to 'Cults and Cultism' thank you.
Now, instead of being so stubbornly pedantic, imo, consider this from outside the ' box;;'
a) do not ALL religious systems of belief have a specific, central character of worship/veneration,
b) do not all religious systems of belief have rituals, ceremonies, etc, etc, both public ( for the members of the 'congregation'
and private ( secretive) for the select few, eg, Catholicism, Anglican and xtianity in particular such as Baptism/Christening, Confession, Tithing/taking up a weekly, collection etc,
c) for Xtianity, in particular here, do not they all worship/adore/venerate an invisible, intangible Deity, or as in the Catholics, etc, a Trinity of Sacred Entities, yes the Mormons elect their OWN living Prophet on a very regular basis, ergo that ' prophet' is in all truth the CULT Leader just as is the Catholic Pope, the Anglican Archbishops, etc, etc,
d) as for " Death Cultism' are not the vast majority of religions, world-wide, based and concerned with what happens to the believer AFTER death, i.e. in the next life/After-life, etc, call it what you may it is all the same?
Ergo, technically and logically speaking, then organized religions ARE cult in nature and in practice are they not?
@Triphid I did not mean to pedantic, let alone "stubbornly" pedantic, but I am not going to apologize for being educated. Why should I? Education is not the enemy of agnosticism. Don't be so super sensitive, judgemental, and condescending. Why do you want to debate the question if you have already made up your mind that the two words mean exactly the same thing and don't want an honest answer? What's the point? Was it just a trap or an ambush? Sure sounds like it.
BTW, in light of the history of religions, in which I have a degree, the answer to A through D is "no" on all counts. But, I can't explain why to you or you would accuse me of being "stubbornly pedantic".
@Ungod It has been estimated that there have been at least 10,000 separate religions in human history. When it comes to denominations of a religion, the number skyrockets. It has been estimated that there are as many as 51,314 different denominations of Protestantism alone.
[ncregister.com]
To assume they all approach religion in the same manner is not only absurd, but highly stereotypical. I could not begin, of course, to name all the religions and denominations that do not fit such narrow prejudicial stereotypes, but I will give some examples.
A) How about Hinduism with its 33 million gods, not to mention all polytheistic religions that have ever existed in human history?
B) What is incorrect here is that the rituals and ceremonies are only for the "select few". Sure, many religions are elitist, but to label all religions as elitist is highly prejudicial. For example, I have participated in Buddhist religious rituals. I am not a Buddhist. They knew I was not a Buddhist and welcomed me. This is really not that unusual. I was raised a Catholic and some of my Protestant friends would occasionally come to Catholic mass to "watch the show". I would sometimes go to their ceremonies as well at their invitation. No one EVER checked at the doors to see if you were actually a practicing member of that church. No one cared. Does such welcoming tolerance really surprise you that much?
C) Is simply not true that all religions worship an invisible, intangible Deity. Pagan religions often, if not usually, believed in gods that could be seen and spoke of them as such. If a god can be seen, it is not invisible. Most religions started out as ancestor worship. An ancestor is not an invisible, intangible Deity. Mormonism does not believe in an invisible, intangible Deity. Rather, God is a Being of Light with a body of highly refined matter. Light can be seen and is not invisible, and was (claimed to have been) seen by the prophet Joseph Smith among other witnesses. A body is tangible. BTW, Jesus Christ has a perfected resurrected body, don't you know?
D) The author here left a verbal escape hatch by qualifying with a "vast majority" condition. But historically, even this is highly questionable. There is no real evidence that ancestor worship religions, which at one time was just about all that existed, was primarily concerned with an afterlife. Rather, they were concerned with just surviving in this existence, hopefully with the help of their ancestor spirits. The same appears to have been true of most pagan religions. Getting through this life was their primary concern, and they did not particularly look forward to ending up in a place like Sheol or Hades, that is for sure. It is also true that many Jews have not historically, and even today do not believe in an afterlife. The idea that you have to believe in, let alone make your primary concern, an afterlife simply is not true.
Unfortunately, it is this type of prejudicial, stereotypical cultist labeling that is often the main enemy of agnostic/atheist arguments. When theists are confronted with this type of thinking their eyes glaze over and their ears close up. You will never convince them by arrogantly flaunting ignorance and prejudice, but only by talking to them with respect and rationality. And again, I maintain that education is not the enemy of agosticism/atheistm, but is its ally.
@Ungod I don't know who this "one person" is, but I think it is obvious from my previous statements that I do not agree with such a hasty overgeneralization. It strips the word "cult" of any real meaning. So, why would you ask me to defend, with examples, a statement that I never made and don't agree with...unless you are trolling me.
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Mormons certainly believe in dieties - Jeezus, the gods and events that took place and resulted in the races etc here on earth. That they were(?) and will be once again gods of their own planet (with black slaves?
) and the special powers of J Smith!
AND, don’t they believe in god?!? -
“Beings of light”, “refined matter”, John Smith having the special power to see light, all point to divine beings and supernatural powers and are no different than gods in my book!
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Jewwws?!? Well they definitely believed in a heaven and I think hell, but not that humans went there - of course not until their own PREDICTION of a savior would enable that.
They also spoke of “sleeping with their fathers” AND I believe it was Enoch who lived 65 years and then “god took him”!
Don’t they believe Eden was heaven on earth and death was god’s punishment?!
That is belief in eternal life - no different than afterlife imho!
They may not believe in an afterlife (now), but they certainly hold the view that there is none for them right now - a belief about the afterlife nonetheless!
They also speak of “giving up the ghost”... Is that not afterlife?!!
This is a religious/belief based view of the afterlife not an open minded scientific one...
I would contrast that with the scientific view that doesn’t believe in an afterlife but is thoroughly open to evidence to the contrary!
I don’t think Jewwws hold such an open minded/evidence based view of the afterlife (as being Jewwws!)...
Jewwws believe about the afterlife what their religion tells them to believe!
@Heraclitus
I’m not asking you to defend anything.
Just if you think there are any examples in your opinion...
@Heraclitus the simple thing I think you’re missing is EXAMPLES of what you are being asked about!
If you claim there are millions of gods and religions, and I don’t doubt OR believe that, you should at the very LEAST have a defining framework of what a religion or god is that applies to those millions!
You are just being asked what EXAMPLES don’t fit some categories mentioned previously (A-D).
I have thought about it since posting and, given my education in the matter, I dare to say I think there are the following 5 defining characteristics of the concerns of “all religions”.
And I think at least 4, maybe the first 4, maybe all 5, are absolutely required of a system for it to be accurately be called a religion.
As brief as possible:
- Faith
- Supernatural
- Unknowable
- Death
- Actions
Which ONE OR TWO of those millions of religions can you fully describe as not having any of these realms of concern?
I submit these 5 as required and definitive whe people say things like science, math and football for example, are religions/cults/ just like religions.
These examples may be concerned with #1 & 5 in a way, but not the rest!
@Heraclitus
Now actually, ancestors are invisible because you can’t see them.
Even if you can see the dead body, that’s just the ancestors remains.
It’s just not gonna fly that a person’s remains are them themselves or the dander and body parts a person leaves behind is also that person - animals can detect and even see those remains as well!
That the dead ancestors exist in any form is intangible and supernatural - there is nothing you can see or confirm about this...
Those who worship gods they can see, can show or demonstrate nothing about them the verifies them as a god.
What makes the physical phenomenon they see a god is un-seeable (invisible) as well!
It is a made up, invisible notion that the sun, or Joe Pesci, is a god!
To assume “all approach religion in the same manner” is truly absurd.
But it is true that all people approach religion in the same (various) MANNERS!
There definitely are similarities that apply to “all religions” otherwise they wouldn’t all be religions!
- Of course, Mormons believe in God. You seem to have forgotten the original point concerning an invisible, intangible Deity.
- Same here.
- You are interpreting Judaism through the eyes of a Christian. Christianity is unique in that it is the only major religion that tells another major religion what they believe, and they often get it very wrong. Not all Jews have believed in a heaven and a hell, and many today do not. This is Christianity arrogantly imposing its beliefs upon Judaism. No, "god took him" does not refer to an afterlife, it refers to death. No, Jews do not believe that Eden was heaven on earth. That is Christianity once again imposing its beliefs upon Judaism. No, "giving up the ghost" is not an expression of a belief in an afterlife, but an expression of death. Once again, this is Christianity arrogantly imposing its own beliefs upon Judaism.
As for your second comment, are you even reading my responses?
4) I gave you a link for the millions of gods in Hinduism.
5) I never said there were millions of religions.
6) I have obviously given you specific examples to prove my points.
7) My comments have had absolutely nothing to do with your 5 characteristics of religion and you know it.
8 ) I never said that dead ancestors are visible and you know it.
9) I never said that ancestors are gods and you know it.
10) Many of your ramblings are absurd. Why are you even discussing Joe Pesci as being a god??? Are you sober???
11) Yes, to assume “all approach religion in the same manner” is absurd, which is what you have been doing, and as you know my point is the exactly that. Your distinction between "manner" and "manners" makes no sense.
12) Yes, of course, there definitely are similarities that apply to all religions otherwise they wouldn’t all be religions. I have never said otherwise, and you know it.
13) Why do you continue to ask me to defend or respond to comments that I have never made and defend and give examples for positions that I do not hold???
You are a troll!!!!!
If the founder is dead, then it’s a religion. If the founder is alive, then it’s a cult.
indirect76
Level 7
Oct 30, 2018
3
None. When someone makes up a new religion it starts off as a mythology. When you get a few followers, you then become a cult. When it becomes mainstream, then it is considered a religion. When the following regresses, it goes back to being a cult. When the following wakes up, it has gone full circle and is once again right back at the beginning.
mt49er
Level 7
Oct 30, 2018
4
The word “cult” has come to mean a very bad group that will brainwash you and control you and take your money.
Just about every religious organization has people who go around labeling other religions as cults. I was leafing through a book written by a Baptist in Texas. He described Hinduism, Buddhism, and Catholicism as cults. Narrow minded aye?
I had a brush with Scientology back in ‘68. Now THAT is a cult.
WilliamFleming
Level 8
Oct 30, 2018
1
@OwlInASack Tell me one religion that is not a cult...
@OwlInASack Your cult definition DEFINITELY applies to the Catholic Church - an identifiable entity.
There is just no set of identifiers that hold to any but one or a few non-catholic churches, if even that many...
@OwlInASack I don’t know much about the Catholic Church but I am told there is a lot of variation, not only among churches, but there are various schools of thought concerning doctrine as well.
That book I saw had the entire Catholic Church from top to bottom labeled as a cult, which I thought stretched the meaning of the word.
On the other hand, I think that all churches have some cultish characteristics. It would be fun to list those characteristics and give a cult rating to various religions.
i am not religionist but i DO make a distinction between religion and cult. a cult has some characteristics share by some religions and not others. one of them, an important one, is the charismatic leader that convinces his (usually his) flock that everyone else in the world is sinning, lying, wrong, and that only he can be trusted. isolation is key. i know people who go to various churches and do not let that keep them from having normal lives, nor do they proselytize, nor do they vote on one issue (determined by their churches). they're normal people and if they happen to believe, to varying degrees, in a god, which i find silly, that doesn't make them cult members. there IS a difference. this is not in defense of religion. it's in defense of defining our terms accurately.
g
genessa
Level 8
Oct 30, 2018
1
Good points.
There are degrees of cultiness.
@WilliamFleming i know an episcopalian whose church is much less a cult than the republican party is! she is a wonderful, reasonable person and she has never mentioned god to me. lol
g
Religion just means acceptability.
Cult just means out of the ordinary.
They were synonyms until the intense goddites took over so much of American society.
Take a millennia old religion into modern western society and it’s a cult.
I was a practicing Buddhist and that’s what I was termed a member of by “people”.
You can say they were wrong but they never would.
I was actually called the anti-Christ!!
Words have denotation and connotation.
Cult and religion have the exact same denotation.
The CONNOTATION is what differs!!
@Ungod that simply is not true. "cult" has its own meaning and you can make up a new one that pleases you better but then we won't be speaking the same language. my description in my original post above is accurate. it's not just connotation, and it's not just acceptability, which is not actually part of the definition. cult and religion do NOT have the exact same denotation. they do not mean the same thing. religions may resemble cults, and cults may make claims to be religions, but they are not the same thing, and it's not about connotation. your being called the antichrist has no bearing on the definitions of the words.
g
@genessa
Ok, my being called the anti-Christ is a non issue...
And ok, you can define, differentiate and say all those things you did about cult and religion.
You can give them any definition you like.
I just want to see the SOURCE for what you say.
You said soo many things about both. What is the verification? What and where is the verification for ALL these things you are saying?
Me, I offer the dictionary definitions of American English.
Not too long ago, cult and religion were synonyms.
The #1 definition in the dictionaries I researched.
I believe they are still listed as synonyms today, but with other definitions perhaps preceeding it, describing cult in SOME ways you mentioned.
Those other descriptions make up some of what I call CONNOTATION.
Many words have connotation beyond its denotation.
Like it or not, cult and religion are still SYNONYMS and I submit dictionary definition as supporting proof of this.
Connotation, like what you are saying is very open ended and anyone can make up any connotations they wish.
The important thing imho, is the SUPPORT you have for your definitions.
WHO, how many and what society uses your connotations.
If it’s just your opinion I don’t care.
SUPPORT what you are saying!!
@genessa
This Wikipedia definition supports my view that cult has a NEW meaning in today’s English that is “pejorative” and “derogatory” and filled with “controversial connotations” as many are posting here in this very thread!
[en.m.wikipedia.org]
The controversy is hardly a done issue and the meaning/usage of cult is constantly changing!.
New meanings don’t necessarily cancel the old ones!
Cults are religions and religions are cults!
@genessa
“Cult” just has no fixed meaning whatsoever!
Its meaning is basically pejorative AND, now that I think of it, that is the point I was making about being called the Antichrist...
I was called that because I was a member of the “cult” of Buddhism - a “cult” with culture bound American Xian’s like him, but one of the world’s major religions, far older and with more followers than Xianty!
Buddhism, a CULT !!!
“Cult” imho, is most accurately and simply defined as, “a pejorative term for a religious system”.
MINE is a religion, YOURS is a cult !!
@genessa
Cult and religion are SYNONYMS!:
“Synonyms of cult:
credo, creed, faith, persuasion, religion”
[merriam-webster.com]
@Ungod i looked up "masturbation" in a dictionary when i was about 13. the definition was "self-abuse." i did not find it helpful.
you asked for sources. there are so many it is hard to select just a few, but i have nonetheless done so, and i've managed to do so in just one post.
theguardian and from that:
Here are 10 warning signs of a potentially unsafe group or leader.
• Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
• No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
• No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement.
• Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
• There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
• Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
• There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader.
• Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
• The group/leader is always right.
• The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
all forms of judaism save the ultra-orthodox and chassidim do NOT fit this description, and even then, the "do not question" and "never good enough" bits definitely do not apply. i'm pretty sure buddhism doesn't either. i don't know anything about druids. i do know christians who do not fit the description (and alas i know some who do).
g
@genessa
Cult and religion are SYNONYMS!:
“Synonyms of cult:
credo, creed, faith, persuasion, religion”
[merriam-webster.com]
@Ungod just because two words are listed as synonyms that does not mean they have the precise same definition or application and you probably KNOW that, even though you posted twice as if you did not know it. your masturbation comment was uncalled for and unappreciated. and you asked for sources, in all caps even, and yet had nothing whatsoever to say about the ones i provided. this leads me to wonder two things: 1. why do you have to make three or four posts to say one thing? and 2. why am i even talking to you if you're going to be snarky, and you ARE being snarky. i have nothing further to say to you and won't be reading your gazillion (some repetitive, all wrong) response posts any longer.
g
p.s. ... except to say that the definition of mine = religion, yours = cult is incorrect, and i don't know anyone, not even evangelicals, who think that way. it's more like mine = religion, yours = mythology. i am clarifying this for others who may be reading this, since you will find some way to twist that around.
They are one in the same. The only percieved difference is the negative connotation attached to Cult. Other uses describe the following of some thing by people. Usually this something is music or movie gener. Dubbed Cult movie classics for an example. Also most occults remain secret and cling to discretion to avoid persecution at the hands of other religions.
Ceaselessmind
Level 7
Oct 30, 2018
2
It is just a cycle
New = Cult
Around = Religion
Passed = Myth
I cannot wait to hear the Christian Myth!!!
AlexRam
Level 7
Jan 15, 2019
2
That seems to fit Roman and Greek mythology - it was quite a while before I realized that these were established religions when Xianity was a ‘cult’, by today’s definition!
I believe Xians were actually called atheists too !!
Academically, a cult can be determined as a movement in tension with society. A sect as a group in tension with its leading religion. These types have been classified as New Religious Movements (NRM) for the purpose of removing derogatory associations.
Geoffrey51
Level 8
Oct 31, 2018
1
In anthropology I was taught that ALL RELIGIONS begin as social movement groups...
@Ungod That would be so. Cults don’t require a religious root. A sect is a response to the religious root.
@Geoffrey51
If you can come up with a working definition for cult, that would have meaning...
Right now ‘cult’ means anything the person using that word wants it to mean!
“Religious root”!??
@Ungod A cult is a movement in tension with society. A sect is a movement in tension with its root religion.
@Geoffrey51 In anthropology I was taught that ALL RELIGIONS begin as social movement groups...
There is no difference. They both involve brain washing and taking peoples money. I use to belong to baptist cult and thought becoming a member of the catholic cult. I'm glad I'm an atheist, because no one has the right to control me. If I could find my baptism certificet, I would burn as a symbol that I"m free.
freedom41
Level 9
Oct 31, 2018
2
And there are those who would call atheism a cult !!
The difference is the number of members. The numbers in a cult are small, religions (in your context) are large.
MacTavish
Level 7
Oct 31, 2018
2
I thoroughly believe Catholicism and Jehovah Witness fit the bill for what many say is a cult - they’ve just been around longer, are well established and have large memberships!
They try to use that as cult insurance, but they are as culty as Moonies!!
A cult does not allways have to be associated with an established religion. A cult of personality or brand is so commen those days. The main attribute of a cult is the behavior of it's followers. For example, the blind support and fallowing of a figure or an idea regardless of facts.
IdenIzzat
Level 4
Oct 30, 2018
2
Religions are cults then?
@JurassicT4 historically, yes but I don't think it have to be that way.
@IdenIzzat doesn't have to but at the root of it it is. Either way they suck ass lol.
@JurassicT4 True.
Behavior yes...
Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice. - Dr Sam Harris
Based on my reading, I think the only difference between a religion and a cult is the size of it's membership.
gsiamne
Level 8
Oct 30, 2018
2
Is there a cult of Sam Harris followers?
Size, it does matter.
Sticks48
Level 9
Oct 30, 2018
2
Yeah, it does, but all I can do is blame my parents for that. So the definition of cult would be an irrational belief by a few and Religions definition would be an irrational belief by many? Is their a number that you need to exceed to become a religion?
Sorry to put this here but in response to Ungod’s continued intransigence to others comments. A cult is in conflict with society’s conventions such as aggressive sporting fraternities as seen for example, in UK and Russia, some motorcycle groups. These are secular ideologies and require no religious foundation.
A sect is a fragmentation of a religion for example The East/West split in Christianity and all fragmentation’s since including C of E, Greek Orthodox, Coptic etc., The split in Islam, i.e. Sunni, Shia, Sufi and the many variation of Buddhism which you can research.
These fragmentations continue to the present day and will no doubt continue.
Hopefully these are sufficient examples to address the question of the original poster.
Geoffrey51
Level 8
Jan 15, 2019
1
Nice, you begin with disparaging comments... Then you go on to yet another OPINONATED “definition”!
I too can offer opionated definitions, but I realize that’s TRULY meaningless!!
@Ungod okay. This is NOT opinion this academic classification. Please do your own research.
@Geoffrey51
A cult is a motorcycle group! Anyone/thing “in conflict with society’s conventions”!
Yeah, real “academic”!!
Cult is a pejorative term for religion.
In your case, it’s a pejorative term for ANYTHING and ANYBODY !!
Ridiculous, but ok. That’s what’s called an OPINIONATED definition!
‘Sect’ has nothing to do with ANTHING in regards to this discussion !!
@Ungod I’m glad that’s decided then. Good luck in your search
@Geoffrey51
Cult is a pejorative term for religion.
Good!!
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