excellent...thanks for the link as well...

Ah! But were they Sunni or Shia?

@Deiter Did you not notice the symbols? It was a dig at Evangelical, versus Catholic, etc. in the survey.

@Deiter the remarks about Saudi Arabia were intended as an analogy to illustrate the illogic of attributing abortions in the US to Christianity.

Yes, at 70% there are more Christians seeking divorce than non-Christians, but 75% of Americans say they are Christian, so Christians are underrepresented. Evangelicals are even more underrepresented. A third of Christians are evangelicals but only 23% of Christians who seek abortions are evangelicals.

If from this study you are deducing that religion leads to abortion you are making unwarranted assumptions. Correlation does not equal causation, but there’s no correlation in the first place.

@Deiter I think you might have missed some of the discussion along the way...and perhaps some of the follow up ones...a victim of trying to have a fluid conversation on the internet with multiple people and transitioning topics...

The point was that the survey posted was done in the USA by a biblical group so the questions and the survey itself is problem skewed to a population that is already biased toward being Christian as the predominant response whereas a survey taken in a Middle Eastern country would be more likely Muslim...if the raw data is set based on a nearly fixed given, then yes, assumptions that don't take that into consideration are unwarranted...

He also stated above that the surveys done in Muslim countries are more likely political rather than religious, so there is agreement there...

@Deiter yes, point already discussed...glad to see you agree

Yeah, because 87.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Hitchens has a line in one of his debates. His opponent says something about all the schools and hospitals Christians have built, and Hitchens says Christians have bombed more hospitals than they have built.

@TheMiddleWay citing two recent examples in no way changes history and the religious affiliation of those that not only wish to destroy their enemies, but have acted upon that urge and have done it. I suppose, unless. I guess maybe you're right, Muslims kill an awful lot. That might be a tight race though.

A very fair argument to separate extremists from their religion, maybe... maybe someday atheist extremists will decide they've had enough and rampage

@TheMiddleWay I'm glad you had a counter to that. Godless, and god fearing, People kill. Stereotypes happen for a reason. And you latching on to a flip comment I made. Well no worries. There are some behaviors I hate, but not really the prejudice that an off comment in bad taste portrayed.

This is what I was referring to. You hate those people? Sounds a bit prejudice. There are good and bad people in all walks of life. Hating a whole group of people speaks volumes of you. Again, I’m not trying to be rude. However, this is the kind of behavior that perpetuates hate and animosity. Looks like you don’t have to be a Christian to start wars after all!

@ownworstenemy "Would it be fair to say "Christian kill more PEOPLE than any other religious group"?" The Holocaust was the deadliest genocide of the 20th century, and maybe even beyond. The act of hating a group of people for their beliefs is immoral as well as in humane.

You are no better than someone who believes in Buddha, Allah, or whomever they may be. We can be different. The key is in respecting those differences. Let’s say you meet someone for the first time. You hit it off and start to become good friends. Then you find out they believe in God. Do you all of a sudden say, “You seem like a great person, but you are one of THOSE people so we can’t be friends. I hate you now.”

@GoingDown who I choose to be friends with isn't based on religious affiliation.

Don't forget that godless Russia killed many more than Hitler. Let's hit another seemingly deadly attack against humanity. "God" killed all but one family. I suppose he's no better than Hitler or Stalin. Some people believe that is fact, well the killing part. Now, is that history? Is that immoral? Inhumane? Would hating all that needless death be inhumane, immoral? Do you like or otherwise enjoy death? Is hating the groups that are founded on the idea to kill all that doesn't please the great sky monster, or Hitler, or Stalin or any other great leader bent on destruction, immoral or inhumane? Or should we respect those differences?

Regardless as I said before and I'll say it again. It was an ironic attempt at humor. Sorry that apparently triggered you.

@ownworstenemy “Hell, even without killing, the most violent people I know are Christian

God I hate those people”

I guess I just thought you hated all Christians like your comment implies. And as for the above mentioned mass genocides, you mentioned God in comparison to other totalitarian rulers. Does this mean that you believe there is a God? If not, the argument is invalid. Even still...let’s say it’s true. That still doesn’t give people, who claim that Christians are so hateful and violent, the right to be just as hateful back to them. It’s hypocritical. “Christians are violent, hateful and hypocritical! I hate them!” Do you see the double standard?

I mean nothing in malice. I just like to hold people to the same stands they expect from others, and furthermore advocate for all people to learn tolerance for people who may think a little, or a lot differently than them. A little love and understanding can go a long way.

@GoingDown thanks for the tolerance!

@GoingDown In my opinion the Holocaust was not based on religion. Like most mass killings, it was caused by socioeconomic and ideological differences. The National Socialists were not a religious crowd at all.

I am not even going to ask how you know that...

@thinktwice they published some of their sales figures and wrote about it during the North Carolina ban, threatening to pull their services there offline. My personal likes do not include porn, but I prefer a well run, legal and safe industry - all around.

@thinktwice There have been many articles about the bible belt (and Utah) being the biggest market for porn, outside of pornhub, based on sociological studies. The studies are done mostly for market research purposes.

@snytiger6 I am being tongue-in-cheek...I know...

@Beowulfsfriend About a year ago I helped a good friend with clearing out a house his family had rented out to a well known LDS family here in town.
They had done the 'midnight flit' and left about 90% of their 'belongings' behind, belongings which included a Desktop Computer loaded to the hilt with very explicit, XXX+ rated porn sites numbering in the dozens in their 'favorites' column, over 200 XXX rated pornographic DVD's, countless, and often strange, sex-toys, 4 blow-up sex dolls ( both genders btw), some VERY kinky articles of 'attire' and last but not least, a folder containing reports from 4 separate Abortion Clinics in Victoria where abortions HAD been performed on the wife of the family.
Talk about their 'holier than thou' attitude, the halos, in my opinion, hadn't just 'slipped' they'd been willfully discarded.

Where was there info about their income level or geo location? I didn't see that.

@TomMcGiverin If you click on the word "survey" it takes you to a PDF that has the entire study, including the raw data...it uses ethnicity, income, location, specificity in type of religion... etc. as other factors

here: starts at about page 38

[lifewayresearch.com]

@thinktwice Thanks for that link.

That is the way it was in my high school...girls just went away for a while or else they went to the local herbalist for a nasty concoction to drink..."heavy periods" were common

They are bigger hypocrites than I myself thought. Just a lot bigger hypocrites than they think (or admit) themselves to be.

I vote for hypocrites!

Hypocrites - I have met plenty of Fundies who lie, cheat, steal, gossip, ridicule, insult and physically abuse children (and adults) - Hypocrites.

Honestly, I would have to say almost everyone I have met is a hypocrite on some level.

Even those who later found religion can't get over their abortions...one of my college mates was fine with her choice until she found Jesus...it has affected her life in so many negative ways and she will die unhappy with guilt because of it...

@thinktwice That's too bad.
Yet another example of how evil religion is.

The one odd stat I found sort of disturbing was that 6% of the abortions were paid for by a church or the pastor...I am going to take that as meaning it was charitable, but still...one wonders...

@thinktwice What a charitable outlook you have!

@thinktwice I doubt a religion which is against abortion would pay for an abortion out of charity. I'd put my money on their not wanting the minister's wife to fidn out.

@snytiger6 oh you guys are way more cynical than I am...I know you are probably right, but, are all churches against abortion or just some? I have no idea...

@thinktwice Some liberal denominations are pro choice - United Church of Christ, and some other liberal Protestant groups.

@SKH78 good to know...thanks

@thinktwice I am pretty sure that pretty much eer Christian church is against abortion. That does tno mean they all forbid it, but just that they disapprove of it. They pretty mucyh all see it as a sin.

@snytiger6 Well, I am not about to go and find out...I will have to rely on the knowledge and experience of those who know more than me...

The headlines would have you believe it is only godless women who have abortions. After all, the xian women are out there on the front lines of the protesters and wives of the legislators.

@HippieChick58 Oh, I get it. The headlines are usually 100% full of shit. Which is why I seldom pay attention to the media. They have no clue what objective, factual reporting is. Everything is spin. My current favorite is how they have millions of people convinced we're living in a nation full of racist white people. Really? Because all the data shows racism has been on a very steady decline for about 50 years now. Look around, talk to people, observe, you'll quickly see that the media is stirring up shit here, focusing on a tiny minority of ignorant red necks and old people from a dying generation, but they have you believing there's a racist under every rock and behind every tree. If that's true, why has almost everyone I ever talk to never personally met or known a true racist? They should be falling from the sky everywhere, according to the headlines.

I am not sure that some of the participants even know what that means...I am coming to the conclusion that this survey was greatly flawed and ambiguous...I wonder what the agenda was for this group to even conduct it...any theories?

If religion did not exist, would abortion even be a political issue at all? I doubt it would be more than an issue at the beryu fringes of politics without religion.

@snytiger6 What is bizarre is that has been MADE a religious issue over the last few decades. The Bible itself barely mentions it--and where it conceivably mentions it, it does not support any pro-life claims. For cryin' out loud, Numbers 5 outlines how a jealous husband can take his wife to a priest to force her to have an abortion after an affair.