LINK Here are 5 historical truths that suggest Jesus never existed
I have extended family members that are very conservative xian. I like articles like this so I have additional ammunition to shoot them down with.
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.I hate that argument that Jesus never existed. As skeptics, our goal is to be on the side of evidence, and sometimes that evidence means taking the "null" position.
[skeptoid.com]
Benthoven
Level 8
Dec 12, 2019
1
This is really evidence that the Jesus Christ of legend did not exist rather than Yeshua ben Yosef, an itinerant rabbi, never existed. Even the author's note says that the Jesus stories probably had some historical kernel, as does the historian Bart Erhman. Richard Carrier and Robert Price are mythologists (with a political agenda) who are very good at mythology but lousy at history. In order to believe that Yeshua ben Yosef did not exist at all, one has to believe that dozens of gospels and other historical documents that refer to him are all total fables and hoaxes made up by countless liars for years and no else at the time noticed they were talking about someone who never existed. It's remotely possible but as an agnostic, I simply don't have the kind of faith necessary to believe in such a far-fetched and far-reaching conspiracy theory.
Heraclitus
Level 8
Dec 11, 2019
2
It's also extremely hard to believe the fantastic New Testament stories about miracles and widespread fame for this person, if he DID exist.
Where are the testamonials from historians, scribes, and other chroniclers of the people and events of that time?
There was not a single speck of a mention by ANYBODY!
AND, if the miracle stories are NOT true, this person, if he DID exist, was either a lunatic or a charlatan...
OR simply was a mannequin others decorated and adorned with jewelry and fine clothes..
LOTS of speculation about that, but no matter the details--who, why, how--we can be confident Jesus either was a fictional character or a flesh-and-blood man with no miraculous powers.
The whole edifice thus comes tumbling down.
Did those responsible (Essenes, in tandem with extraterrestrials, for example!) seek to birth a new Jewish mystery religion, based on lost ancient knowledge, or something?
Maybe.
Or maybe the Romans DID make the whole thing up!
@Storm1752 Exactly. The Jesus of legend was a legend. The later gospels, after Mark, actually enhanced his legend by adding additional stories, such as the angel Gabriel annunciation, and the wise men narrative. (Merry Christmas!) Yeshua ben Yosef, in his day, was inconsequential. Just another false Messiah and there were over 200 of them. However, his existence, in passing, was later mentioned by Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, and Josephus. But if as the Mythologist conspiracy movement claims, those were all later editing forgeries, and the Flavian Emperors actually invented Jesus, how is it possible that there were popes in Rome before the Flavian Emperors? That would require that the Flavian Emperors not only invented Jesus but invented their own Roman history, as well, including Vatican papal documents.
According to the Sumerian texts, carved in the Babylon walls 2000 years before the Bible was written, the alien race of Sumerians gentically engineered humans by mixing their own DNA with that of human apes.
They only made males, to work in the gold mines, But the two engineers who made humans felt sorry for them, all working as slaves without realizing it. So the main genetic engineer, The Snake (the name symbolized great wisdom) plotted with the other engineer to make females using the male DNA, so she could wake them up.
But with the first woman they cloned, Lilith, the engineers used royal white reptilian DNA, which turned out to be too aggressive a mix. The new female kept attacking the human males and trying to be equal with them, instead of mating with them, or enlightening them.
So the engineers abandoned that branch of genetics, and engineered a new woman, using different DNA, who was more amenable to being a mate.
I noticed that C.S. Lewis based his White Queen and other evil magic queens in his Narnia series books on Lilith, claiming they were her descendants, and there are so many references to her in other classic literature.
birdingnut
Level 8
Dec 9, 2019
1
To me it is not relevant whether or not Jesus existed as the underlying religion containing Jesus makes no sense and contradicts itself, further it is repugnant on a very base level and that very repugnance is whitewashed by the Dogma of the faith, whitewashed into sacrament.
To be Christian is to believe
- Blood is magic and can be shed for God to forgive sin (crime against God).
- Such shed blood is therefore a good thing.
- The sacrament is a willful indulgence in ceremonial cannibalism and vampirism re-branded as a holy act.
IF you need ammo try reading Richard Carrier
OR
Teach them about the Flavian Emperors no one tells them about. Here, Merry Mythmass
Davesnothere
Level 7
Dec 9, 2019
2
If the Flavian Emperors actually invented Jesus, how is it possible that there were popes in Rome before the Flavian Emperors? That would require that the Flavian Emperors not only invented Jesus but their own Roman history, as well, including papal documents.
@Heraclitus The Flavian emperors came WAY before popes!
@Storm1752 Not unless Roman history itself was forged. The Flavian dynasty was a Roman imperial dynasty, which ruled the Roman Empire between 69 AD and 96 AD, encompassing the reigns of Vespasian (69–79), and his two sons Titus (79–81) and Domitian (81–96). The Flavians rose to power during the civil war of 69, known as the Year of the Four Emperors. The first two popes, Peter and Linus, listed in the Annuario Pontificio, predated the Flavian dynasty.
Faith consistently trumps fact and evidence.
PBuck0145
Level 7
Dec 8, 2019
1
"Trumps" as in the similar actions to the so named #45, ignores or sidesteps facts and evidence, or changes to suit his warped desires. OMG, that man has changed our lexicon.
You do not have to debate truth ot fiction to "shoot them down". You just take what is written and understand how all the written text points to Jesus being Angelic lord of host Lucifer the devil. B
The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance." Isaiah 19:25
The "Lord" of Israel was Egyptian.
As to Osiris of Egypt:
But he did not just represent death in the physical world, also rebirth or what you may call being born again.
a) John 3:3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
He was married to his sister Isis, who was goddess of the sky and love. Isis and Osiris had a child Horus, who is believed by many to be a reincarnation of Osiris.
John 14:9 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Osiris is usually identified as the God of the afterlife, the underworld and the dead. He is also called the King of eternity, King of the living, Master of souls; He who appears as ram in Mendes, and the Sovereign of Amenti.(1) Another curious title that you will find for Osiris is the “Morning Star.”
This same Morning Star of Osiris found in the Book of the Dead, appears to be the same Morning Star that we can find in the Book of Revelation, where Saint John says, “I will give him the Morning Star (Rev. ii. 29).
Lucifer (UK: /ˈluːsɪfər/ LOO-si-fər; US: /-sə-/; 'light-bringer'
is a Latin name for the planet Venus in its morning appearances, and is often used for mythological and religious figures associated with the planet. Due to the unique movements and discontinuous appearances of Venus in the sky, mythology surrounding these figures often involved a fall from the heavens to earth or the underworld. Interpretations of a similar term in the Hebrew Bible, translated in the King James Version as "Lucifer", led to a Christian tradition of applying the name Lucifer, and its associated stories of a fall from heaven, to Satan. Most modern scholarship regards these interpretations as questionable, and translates the term in the relevant Bible passage (Isaiah 14:12) as "morning star" or "shining one" rather than as a proper name, "Lucifer".[1] wikipedia
John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."
"beast" in the book of Revelations is metaphor for laws of government. Mark as in give a mark for identification: mark of the beast means identification for taxation and government control .
Written almost 2000 years ago in metaphor and riddles not always understood.
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. Revelations 13:16-17
The uneducated with no interest in mystical traditions and the esoteric may regard Ancient Egypt as little more than a place of pagan worship, strange hieroglyphics, and monuments erected by thousands of Hebrew slaves. But those more learned, especially those having undertaken the initiative rituals of Freemasonry, will see a link between the Egyptian metaphysical tradition and modern mystery schools, of which Freemasonry is one. [gaia.com]
Lord of host Lucifer the devil leading the Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worshippers in the establishment of the mark of the beast 666 identification for taxation and government control. No justice for the innocent, more children can be trained to speak and act abused to wrongfully prosecute innocent people especially those that oppose there Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worship "my teacher made me touch her p.p ". Rape the original indigenous inhabitants of their land call it America call them such as Mexicans, indian and native American.
Word
Level 8
Dec 8, 2019
2
Sh*t"s getting deep!
Lots of stuff there but it doesn’t flow with any continuity. Perhaps bullet points with a summary might help this bear of little brain to comprehend.
I don’t see how you ger from Isiah to John with any argument for the connection, It’s just slotted in.
The interweaving of Jesus and Osiris makes no sense in the construction. I understand the mythical correlation of Osiris Risen, but unless anyone is aware of that it is quite confusing.
It seems you are referring to texts by Pike whose influence was over the Scottish Rite and not Freemasonary per se.
Word:
@Geoffrey51 thanks for your observation. I do not consider it anything of finished product of a writing. I do use this platform as a place to get thoughts initially written down, use it as a sounding board and on some occassions someone might comment on the general context that better helps me get my understanding organized.
For clearifing your Isaiah to John connection:
Isaiah says [prophesies for "the lord" ] blessed be Egypt my people.
The "lord" is Egyptian.
Then I found Osiris stuff that I am not much familiar with but giving alternating comparisons between what I found about Egyptian Osiris compared next to what is written as to what Jesus said according to John.
So, it appears that what was written about Osiris is something that could be viewed as comming about.
Osiris was widely worshipped until the decline of ancient Egyptian religion during the rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire.[15][16] wikipedia
Horus gradually took on the nature as both the son of Osiris and Osiris himself. He was referred to as Golden Horus Osiris.[27][28][29][30][31] In the temple of Denderah he is given the full royal titulary of both that of Horus and Osiris. He was sometimes believed to be both the father of himself as well as his own son, and some accounts have Horus Osiris being brought back to life by Isis. Wikipedia
Can we say Christianity is the son of Egypt but it is still itself as Egypt as was the father but they are the same? So, it is Golden Horus Osiris leading the Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worshipper governmental terrorist.
As to your comment about ... Scottish rite is "OF" Freemasonry ... Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, or simply Morals and Dogma, is a book of esoteric philosophy published by the Supreme Council, Thirty Third Degree, of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction of the United States. It was compiled by Albert Pike, wikipedia
Word:
@Geoffrey51 it is looked at as conspiracy theory crap but it IS connected with these words.
Psychological meme [of a form of government/religious control]
Cognition - though/word capabilities
Logos - Within Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (c. 20 BC – c. 50 AD) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy.[7] Philo distinguished between logos prophorikos ("the uttered word" ) and the logos endiathetos ("the word remaining within" ).[8]
The Gospel of John identifies the Christian Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[9] and further identifies Jesus Christ as the incarnate Logos. Wikipedia
Ruach - force [like breath] or [could it be the force behind breath which would be the thought of the mind/brain. ]
Spirit is used to replace ruach in biblical text.
The "mythological" thoughts of Egypt Osiris while Israel was there before being lead out by Moses gave for the "son" thought/words ... John 1:14 ... the logos become flesh.
Paul the apostle understood trying to explain 1 Corinthians 2:16 for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
So. Christianity/Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worship "New world order" is the son/father of Egypt Father reincarnated into the mind of current modern people as psychological meme.
Word:
@Geoffrey51 clear as mud?
@Word okay with you now. Good idea to use this forum as s sounding board.
I know there is some crossover with Mary and Isis so the Jesus/Osiris correlation would work.
I always have a problem with the levels above the third in respect that were they grafted on to the guild levels or do they grow out of the guilds.
I don’t have enough study in this field to have an opinion really, but I suspect the former
We know the third tracing board is about death and rebirth so I wonder if the rebirth is symbolic to the ascension to the fourth level if invited..
We must also not forget the central relationship to Solomon’s Temple.
Intriguing eh!
Word:
@Geoffrey51 could you imagine a China, islam, or what ever else "new world order" example style for government? What is shortest way to describe "new world order " style of government? The words [logos]? Are in writing (laws) as to define the government and itself, function and dealings with its capitalism slave labourers.
Word:
@Geoffrey51 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. Revelations 13:12
Beast is metaphor for "laws of government "
As to the first and second beast, maybe some research could help but maybe the first beast is representation of Osiris then the current new world order is requiring worship of the first style.
Submit to Authority-666 pay taxes.
@Word I am with you with regard to Ruach being equivalent to Logos particularly bringing Hellenic Judaism into the frame.
Not sure how Moses leading the Israelites out of Israel correlates with John 1:14.
Also not clear on how you arrived at your conclusion with regard to the racist, devil worship
Word:
@Geoffrey51 do you understand the metaphor "beast" as laws of government? Moses had written laws governing the people, old testiment law of Moses out of Egypt. It was "wounded" per say at the time of Roman invasion about 2000 years ago. Given the biblical text was per say eventually controlled by Roman catholic which fell into denominations and split losing world domination power but out of the dark ages gives rise to the "illuminated ones" illuminati light. Lucifer is meaning bearer of the light. Thus then we have rise of conspiracy theory theories that actually works toward keeping the power in control because the theories do not hurt the "establishment " .. I think things that rise or theorize against it are just written off as conspiracy theories and nothing done to stop Identification for taxation and government control such as requiring birth certificate, social security number and photo identification. As written, a means of controlling "buying and selling " capitalism.
Revelations 13:16-17 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
Metaphor and riddles basically saying " everyone shall worship the "devil" (leadership), "the beast" (laws of government) submit to Authority-666 pay taxes "In God We Trust".
@Word Starting to sound like a David Icke book now.
Word:
@Geoffrey51 I do not have much specific knowledge of the levels of Masonic lodge but have glanced thru some stuff.
Here is a word connections I make with some pyramid hierarchy I seen taught by Masonic lodge teachings of levels like people are living stones of a pyramid with majority of people on bottom.
There is also biblical text where it can be extrapulated that the "body" of a person is the temple of "God" logos.
1 Peter 2:4-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
As Living Stones
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is [a]choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, [b]are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in [c]Scripture:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone,
And he who believes in [d]Him will not be [e]disappointed.”
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
“The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the very corner stone,”
Word:
@Geoffrey51 the few Masonic members I have known are racist. There is the prince hall.
But, research American Masonic and klu klux klan historical connections
"I took my obligations from white men, not from negroes. When I have to accept negroes as brothers or leave masonry, I shall leave it" Albert Pike 33rd* source: Delmar D. Darrah, History and Evolution of Freemasonry 1954, page 329. The Charles T Power Co.
Word:
@Geoffrey51 I do not know David icke
Richard Carrier has some good books on the topic, I have listened to some of his lectures, he takes the bible apart and investigates it. I don't know a whole lot about it, I need to read more, but I have heard that the last three gospels are copies of mark. and when he curses the tree, thats unusual, Richard points out all of the red flags, I want to get some of his books.
ml58n2
Level 7
Dec 8, 2019
1
Basically Mark is the original and Matthew and Luke take stuff out and make their own with extra material. They are called the synoptic gospels.
Pretty much Luke cleans up Mark with improved grammar and adds some bits and pieces in.
Matthew on the other hand takes the basics of Mark then goes off on a few tangents and is an apocalyptic writer with a rollicking good yarn!
Valerie Tarico is one of my favorite writers and she often contributes to a relatively main stream (if left leaning) news site -- [rawstory.com]. I saw this there today. I love to see it.
RichCC
Level 8
Dec 8, 2019
3
There are those who strive to prove that Jesus exist and those who strive to prove that he/ it doesn’t . People will present information and rationalization to support their belief . The need to convince others of our individual positions is what is more interesting. The Bible proverb “ Do not envy those who oppress you and choose none of their ways “. I merely pose this as something to look at and not a attack
Outsideit67
Level 7
Dec 8, 2019
2
Even IF (Yuge IF!) he existed in some form now distorted & "glorified" So What?
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Dec 8, 2019
4
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