All iffy posits have apologists and some are able to dress the window better than others. In the final analysis, 'tis all the same.

@evidentialist I make no real distinctions between any of the established religions and mysticism and meditative philosophies...they are all only in the mind of the believer, and I’m not one of them.

@Marionville no, it's not all the same. I started off a strict southern baptist and eventually came to the vedas. The abrahamic beliefs are nowhere close to advaita vedanta. Vedantists follow a progression of logic and proof to uphold their monistic, secular views. To call them the same is a hasty, uninformed generalization.

@Marionville ~ As a true agnostic (no one knows) I find atheism just another form of belief, because you have no more proof than any of the religionists. I earned two science degree and am intimate with the Scientific Method. Absence of proof is never proof of absence. It is just that most people are more comfortable with their beliefs including atheism that admitting you and everyone else simply does not know for certain. Believe for certain indeed, but that is not the same by any rational measure.

@JeffMesser I know they are not literally all the same...I’m a very well read and educated woman. What I meant is they are all deluded into thinking that they know better than any other belief system, when in fact none of them do, any more than we nonbelievers.

@Marionville well, that is and it isn't the vedantist view. they believe that all religions set their own standards so whatever floats your boat ... but it's because they believe we're all subject to the same results in the end anyway so whatever difference you choose is inconsequential. that's the OFFICIAL view - but people tend to be much more judgmental and less accepting. so there's truth to your perspective. I view it as a source of hope instead of the dismal, hopeless views espoused by anti-theists (of which I was one decades ago). I believe in the universe following the pattern it usually follows and I have faith that when things go bad there's good around the corner. Taoism. What vedanta allowed me to do was internalize a narrative that lets me "pull back" and better evaluate things from a wider perspective time-wise and not focus on the scant 70+ year increments we tend to focus on as humans.

@JeffMesser If it works for you I’m happy. Although I have never had a religion myself, I do not interfere with, or try to dissuade others from theirs. I was replying to your post from my own perspective, but you must decide from your own perspective what you believe or don’t believe.

@creative51 I don’t believe I said anything about a god or gods...in fact I have looked and never mentioned one. The implication, as you put it, is how you have interpreted my words but was not one I made. I know that meditative philosophy needs no belief in a god, although many of them do. Try to read my actual words and not read into them words I didn’t say,

@evidentialist Vague comment.
Please provide "evidence" of what you specifically have in mind. And are those objections applicable to all aspects of the matter being discussed? Please provide the total range of "evidence" for your comprehensive objections.

@ExculpatoryLover I disagree with your premise that atheism is just another belief system, however I am both an atheist and an agnostic, and yes you can be both. There is no proof either for or against there being a god, but your argument that because I can’t prove that there isn’t one is a spurious one as we all know that you can’t prove a negative. The burden of proof must therefore lie with the believer to show evidence of why they believe that there is a god. That evidence has never shown itself in the billions of years since life on Earth began, I therefore use logic and the laws of probability and come down on the side of disbelief . That is, until someone is able to show me evidence that there is a god, when at such time I may well become a believer, so in that respect I am agnostic and open to a change in my mindset.

@Krish55 -- It wasn't vague at all.

Iffy ... unresolved, tentative, etc.
Posit ... presented thought, postulate, etc.
Apologist ... defender, proponent, etc.
dress the window ... present wares in attractive fashion, etc.

All tentative or unresolved thoughts presented have their defenders. Their advocates. Some are able to present their cases in a more erudite manner than others.

The statement I made was and is succinct, constructed with proper grammar, on point, and unambiguous. It was not an attempt at a critical treatise, merely an observation. It needs no support because it is presented as an opinion. Would it have been better for you if I had headed the comment with Attention: Opinion piece written specifically to @Marionville and not requiring response by anyone else. so there would be even less chance of a misunderstanding?

@Krish55 -- I have a question for you.

What is belief to you? That is, how do you experience belief and how do you explain it to another?

@Marionville ~ I accept that you do not understand the Scientific Method, and that when you have no proof to back up your position, you refuse to recognize that you are exercising your belief. It has nothing to do with proving a negative, that is a canard. BTW... that is not the same as following an established belief system. It is merely your personal belief until you provide the evidence to elevate it to a fact. It is beyond reason to claim to be both an atheist (there is without a doubt no God) and an agnostic (it cannot be known) unless you define these words differently from standard use. People with a visceral hatred of these belief systems can not tolerate having their personal beliefs called out... I get it.

@ExculpatoryLover No I’m afraid you don’t get it! I have no visceral hatred of anything and I would ask you not to be so arrogant as to presume that if I have a different view I must be wrong. How dare you tell me what knowledge I do or don’t have ..you have no idea what I know about the Scientific Method or anything else. I don’t have a closed mind to there being a god, as I’ve already stated I’m ready and willing to look at any evidence that proves that there is....it just isn’t there though is it? I can’t show you proof of non existence because that is oxymoronic. I don’t need to follow any established belief system except logic, and it is not logical to believe in something without evidence therefore I don’t. Please do not reply any further on this thread as I will not be patronised and told by you or anyone how or what I should believe...in any case I was not directing my original reply to you, and the original poster and myself have come to an understanding.

@Marionville ~ Nice... ignore my argument, create straw man, tear that nonsense apart. Bravo! I am not saying atheism is a belief system, but it most certainly is your personal belief until you provide proof. You demonstrate a lack of understanding of the Scientific Method with this prove a negative canard. It only applies to proving something you can demonstrably prove is TRUE. Example... trying to prove the Earth is flat, is trying to prove a negative because there is a plethora of evidence proving the Earth is a spheroid, not flat. You need conclusive proof there is no God, to legitimately claim I am asking you to prove a negative. Those who understand the Scientific Method know this. Please do not verbally attack me then ask me not to respond. That is beyond rude.

@ExculpatoryLover A belief in nothing is not a 'belief. Definition of Belief:an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

All of us with enquiring minds would love to embrace the supernatural if it can be proved to be true. The scientific method works like this......You make a hypothesis....."there is a god".....then you set out to prove this with rigorous research. Your findings are peer reviewed. Your studies are replicated throughout the world. You are published in reputable science magazines and atheists, for the first time will believe! And you win the Nobel peace prize. As Marion said the onus is not up to us, who lack belief to provide the evidence

@MsDemeanour Thank you...I was too exhausted last night to engage with this poster any more. You cannot get through to certain people and I long ago stopped trying to flog a dead horse! It was also 2am and I was on my iPad in bed...not at my sharpest or most willing to engage with someone so dense.

@MsDemeanour ~ Everything in reality is one of two things, a fact with evidence, or a belief. Stay in denial, your type has their head so far up your own asses, it is not funny.

@ExculpatoryLover I had this same argument with the atheists "group" in my town here a thousand times. a general organized refusal to believe in something is a belief in and of itself and subject to all the shortcomings etc... of other belief systems. We ALL ... ALL OF US ... internally seek a narrative to describe existence. Our mind does this for comparisons and classification. In the west psychology has only hit upon this in the last 100+ years. In the Indus valley this was a school of thought and study over 2,000 years ago. It's like Deadpool breaking the 4th wall and speaking to the audience. Whatever narrative you pick will be parsed and refined by your mind over time. I have this theory that the best "funnel" is thus:

1. seek truth
2. create order
3. avoid discord

@evidentialist First of all, your question does not help to support your curt, wholesale, and vague dismissive reaction to the various and developed points made in the post. As such, by responding to my request for "evidence" supporting your rejection with a mere new question directed to me, you are engaging in an red herring distraction instead of supporting your claim. Second, your asking a question about "belief" shows your projection of Western religious concepts unto Eastern practices. Hinduism is about practice, not belief. The original post only mentions belief once and specifically mentions that Hinduism encompasses various beliefs as well as unbelief. So I request once again that you provide "evidence" supporting your rejection, especially since you have incorporated that word into your name.

@ExculpatoryLover what you are saying is that belief is synonymous with disbelief. You’re also a rude prick. No wonder you hide and don’t post a pic of yourself? Don’t be frightened, I promise not to punch you in your pompous nose if I see you at Walmart

My atheism stems from no religion and I’m far from a dismissive fanatic. I resent that you seem to think that we are a homogeneous group with uniform views, we are not, we are a bunch of loosely amalgamated individuals who have arrived at our disbelief that there is a supreme being via many means. Some of us never had the burden of having any belief system imposed on us as children and have been allowed to consider all types of religion and philosophy in order to form our own beliefs. It is never wise to make sweeping generalisations about whole groups of people without explicit knowledge of the facts.

much like a computer the mind and body have their own programming language. the systems of the body interact ... like the limbic system reacting to stress and releasing dopamine or adrenaline or endorphins. our moods affect how our body works and our very thoughts affect those moods. we can train our minds and bodies to attain certain moods or states through learning and meditation and yoga. part of it could be called "brainwashing" and part operant conditioning aka Skinner. this is the truth I take from it all. no mysticism.

Karma is a concept completely misunderstood in the west and even for many in the east. They treat it like some sort of moral code or morality instrument and that's NOT what it means. Karma is "cosmic momentum". Every action or thought we engage in has other closely associated thoughts or actions that further urge us in that direction even if we change our own course. This is probably my biggest personal distinction in my practice from that of most hindus in general. I don't believe in the morality crap of the universe as they want to believe. I DO, however, acknowledge the issue of social order in this all though. This is an incredibly in depth topic that I am sure you don't want me to ramble on about ... but suffice it to say I know of the kernel of truth in what you speak and it's been part of my meditation and study for years.

@JeffMesser oh what utter rubbish. The next you're going to say karma is the law of the universe. A pill won't even reverse what's in your head if you continue this nonsense.

@TimeOutForMe karma is the momentum created by all the things working around an action you take. kind of like running around with a good crowd or bad crowd and how that affects you. that moral stuff is all BS.

@JeffMesser that's chicken feed. That's what you've being fed here. Drop it and you'll think clearly again.

@TimeOutForMe so belittling it with names is your argument? classic.

@JeffMesser belittling religion yes. It's as far as the string goes and back.

@TimeOutForMe you're ignoraing science and reasoning as well so basically you're being ignorant.

@JeffMesser science is one thing, religion is another. So have they told you, your previous lives as well?

@TimeOutForMe dopamine, operant conditioning, Pre-frontal cortex, hippocampus, hypothalamus ... these are all the things I am talking about. Thats fricking BIOLOGY you simpleton. how can you people persist in such ignorance of the world around you? jesus.

@JeffMesser make yourself happy. Im happier without this nonsense.

@JeffMesser you have an obsession for all of this. Stay obsessed then

@TimeOutForMe then just admit to remaining ignorant and don't argue with me about competence.

@TimeOutForMe oh now it's an obsession? good lord you are so fricking delusional you can't even see reality when it strikes you smack dab in the face.

@JeffMesser you'll jump next. That's ignorance

@TimeOutForMe now I'll jump? LOL you're not the sharpest atheist in the drawer are you?

@JeffMesser competence?

@TimeOutForMe you admittedly ignore science to stay "happier" ... so what exactly is it that is making you laugh at me? you're the delusional one.

Great response!

My opinion is that the ancient Hindus gave two very valuable gifts to humanity: a religious philosophy par excellence and the art of meditation.

@WilliamFleming ~ Make that three... the food is outstanding too.

@ExculpatoryLover
@WilliamFleming
The food is still my major cuisine, including tasty vegetarian dishes, but without the religion BS

Certainly the caste system is abhorrent. But how does that make the rest of it meaningless? In claiming that, you are engaging in black-and-white religious-type thinking.

@Krish55 I am an anti-theist. I have no use for ANY religion. I think they're ALL evil. No matter how they may have started out, or what they're "supposed" to represent, or whatever philosophy they may espouse, they've ALL been corrupted and do not realistically represent anything "good".
I also do not have much use for philosophy.
While some may have ideas that I may agree with, overall, philosophy is nothing more than other people's opinions on various subjects. None of which are any more or less important than my own.

I used to believe in "live and let live", but I don't anymore.
Those who are believers have forced their beliefs to permeate nearly every aspect of public policy and have insinuated their beliefs into people's private lives.
They've been given an inch, and they've taken 100 miles.
At least in the US, having the right to practice one's religion does not give anyone the right to force their beliefs on others.

So, I no longer respect anyone's religion. I only tolerate it, by law.
I don't actively interfere with anyone's right to believe whatever delusional
nonsense they choose, but I DO take exception with their efforts to use their beliefs to influence my life, and the lives of others.

@Krish55 I took away with me the family values, hospitality, kindness, the art of Indian cooking, educating my kids etc so not all bad.
...but dropped the rest - the worship of dieties, specific times of year to perform different worship ceremonies, the sacrifices even the poor are forced to make to do these offering ceremonies. (to avoid bad luck) Hindu priests very seldom agree on the way the ceremonues have to be performed, whether it's a death, a birth or a marriage and this also causes division amongst families. I've yet to see or hear two hindu priests agreeing on most things. They interpret and perform on their individual understanding. The temple was my second home after school each day. I became involved in the teachings and the prayer and offering rituals. I read and sang out of the books in the language it's written. Every hindu home has a lamp (an idol) as a light in the house. If you menstruate as a girl child you have to stay away from both temple and lighting of the lamp or cannot be near anything prayer wise as you're seen as unclean. I can go on and on. It's a religion where you worship, show respect and make sacrifices unto these dieties. Different hindu groups perform worship ceremonies differently, depending on which part of India you're originally from (even if more than 10 generations ago) and depending on your language - whether you're tamil, telegu, gujerati or hindustanis etc. How is this not a religion? It merely consumes your life outside of school life. You have a religion and not a life to live as your own. Jeff speaks about one of them, one sect of hinduism, which is selection in the middle and you can pick that up from the language he uses. What is your argument here? since you also have a hindu name and confessed to be an Atheist. You have a hindu name, after one of the god's. Why did you become an Atheist?

@TimeOutForMe I never said it wasn't a religion. You're absolutely right to take away the good and reject the bad. I was merely arguing against wholesale dismissal of any religious tradition.

it's a common reference on this site.

@JeffMesser I have been on this site more than once a day for almost 2 years, (level 9)...sorry, not true At All.......name one, just one, I'll wait......

@AnneWimsey [agnostic.com]

@JeffMesser ummmm,the fact that numerous posters use the word "woo" does not buttress your ASSertion that they are referring to Hinduism, which as You point out, is not necessarily a religion at all.

@AnneWimsey if you don't believe me then don't believe me. I know what I've read numerous times. I'm not gonna go through and search a bunch of stuff because you want to prove a point. do it yourself. I know what I've read because they're normally saying it to me.

@JeffMesser "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

@Gareth perhaps. but there must at least be logic.

It might have been because that’s the word he knew would be meaningful to a westerner.

@WilliamFleming True but if they don't use Hindu to refer to the collective belief, then what do they use ? The belief system maybe defined by outsiders, but that does not mean that it is not a legitimate definition. Protestant was a term originally coined by Catholic, and it covers Church of England, Baptist, Methodist etc. many different beliefs, but it is still a legitimate term.

@Fernapple I agree with your point. Hindus, as viewed from a global perspective, have enough in common that they refer to themselves as “Hindus”. See my reply above. That word is sufficient to differentiate them from, say, Muslims or Christians, but within their own society I suspect they would describe themselves by some particular religious school or leader.

Never having been to India, maybe I am out of line.

@WilliamFleming Yes that is my view too.

@Fernapple within the hindu community my beliefs are referred to as sanatan dharma (eternal duty) and the term "hinduism" is abhorrent. Max Mueller and other whitewashers have almost made it a 4 letter word. Calling it religion is akin to calling city ordinances, political systems and psychology lessons religion as well. It's an amalgamation with some religious components. But it is not a religion like the abrahamic beliefs.

@JeffMesser a religion regardless however you wish to pretty it up. It's like someone being on depression meds but not yet in a sanitarium. They still suffer from depression.
...and now rest my energy on this religious topic. I left hinduism but still lived under my parents roof for many years until it was time for me to leave. ... and they say it's a way of life? Hahaha - exhausting BS

I don't disagree with you about the whole "yoga" thing in the west. It does seem commercialized here, but that's not what it's all about and its certainly not how/where I became involved with it. I am a sannyasin. I have renounced materiality (is that a word?) and relationships and I spend my days meditating and studying the vedas. In India I would be living in the forest (aranyaka) and members of the village community who are students or homeowners or even retired would offer me sustenance. This is understood culturally. In the west, however, no such culture exists so I try to follow the arakyaka in a western way. I live on VA disability, have retired from criminal law practice, and I volunteer time weekly at the courthouse. I engage in daily hindi practices such as piotr and bhakti yoga and am constantly trying to align my thinking and actions with positive things. It's made a huge difference in my life and I have NO misgivings about deities or the like. Yoga is how I align my body and mind. There's no mysticism involved. It's the computer code of the mind and body. So we're not all california coast bullshit.

@JeffMesser whatever works for u man , that’s great for u .

@Pralina1 namaste. In that regard I follow the advice of the Buddha who said to be an island.

@JeffMesser I hope u find this funny . I think it’s hilarious .

@Pralina1 it's funny because it's true. I see these people all the time and they don't have the foggiest clue what they're doing. Like he said they just want to appear "woke". meh, I treat them the same as those from any other religion ... we're all subject to the same fate no matter what they say so I just leave them to their own devices. many paths, one destination. since our minds keep parsing neural connections and learning until the day we die my hope is somehow their bullshit actually makes them affect the world less negatively so that the rest of us can move on smartly.

Lol! American Hinduism, much like American Indian cusine, is not exactly representative of the original.

@JeffMesser yoga is definitely commercialised in the west. It's become fancy for you guys out there. It's hilarious. How the rich housewives there even rave about Deepak Chopra. We're laughing honestly.
Selecting titbits from hinduism and the west thinks it's the next best thing since sliced bread

@JeffMesser you're bowing down to religious practices.

@TimeOutForMe study some psychology then get back to me.

@JeffMesser whatever rocks your boat. I'm free of this nonsense.

@TimeOutForMe yeah, you're way undereducated for this topic.

What a compelling notion . . .

uhm ... ok

@gNappyHead
Were you deluded into think religion was made by a god?

@xenoview No, I certainly am not. I was actually in fact being facetious by mocking how redundant your comment is considering what page we are one by also highlighting how very little your comment contributed to the conversation.

Who are “we”. Don’t include me in your narrow-minded rant.

@WilliamFleming obviously we does not include you, you stupid fuck.

@WilliamFleming I agree, William.
This is a site for free exchange of ideas.
Mofo is a true believer in HIS point of view, and a hater.

You write like a religious fanatic.

@Storm1752 wrong, i am a non believer in gods or religions; and I don't hate anyone, but I do pity those dumb fucks who believe in bullshit. To me all religions and all gods are bullshit.

@creative51 I call bullshit when I see bullshit, if being clear and direct is "rude" to you, so be it, I don't have too much sympathy for brainwashed people trying to defend or justify bullshit.

@creative51 "change your depends"????!!!!! completely nasty and so full of ASSumptions....WTF is wrong with you?

@creative51 typical of people with small minds, age shaming now? I'm 66 and have never used any type of diaper, perhaps your infantile mind will instead require that you change your diapers.

@creative51 well, i sure as hell won't change my pov because of your inane baseless postings, seems to me that you're projecting, and as I said many times I call bullshit when I see it and I am very passionate about that. You call it grating and rude, I call it being direct, clear and to the point. And if you don't block me, well, I guess you'll have to learn to endure what I post as I deem to post it and just STFU.

@Mofo1953 Onya mate. I reckon it's fun to be described as a curmudgeon. Keep the fire burning in.

@MsDemeanour as kids say. Sticks and stones...

@Mofo1953 couldn't have said it better. You've taken the bull by the horn and didn't sugar coat. I admire your sincere brutality on this one.

@TimeOutForMe I prefer to be brief, clear, direct, honest and to the point. Some people confound that with being rude. Some people are aghast that I use the word "bullshit" like if it was demeaning to the person you are providing the comments to, many not even the original posters. They tend to forget that it is a proper word with a proper definition. And when I say religion is bullshit, how does that insult or demean anybody, unless of course you believe in that bullshit and feel personally offended because what you believe can't be bullshit. Now if you are a believer in a religion, regardless of which religion is it, an immediate question comes to mind: what the fuck are you doing in a site of people who don't believe in religions? Not trying to say don't join, I really don't care nor do I want to infringe in doing whatever the heck you want to do. But do not bitch if you write a lenghty post trying to sell your religion, to me that's like trespassing, you don't go to a nude beach wearing tuxedos. You'll be thrown out. Thanks anyway, nice of you to post in support.

@Mofo1953 i applaud you once again for your sincere brutal honesty. You have more than made your point.

unsubstantiated? "disregard truth"? what truth is being disregarded?

saying "unsubstantiated" is completely misinformed. eastern beliefs are based on THOUSANDS of years of observations looking for cause and effect. it's not even close to being "unsubstantiated". I really think you need to reexamine your understanding of epistemology. your personal bias is rather extreme and is clouding your thoughts.
[sunypress.edu]

@JeffMesser @glennlab @Pralina1 @MsDemeanour Claiming that "THOUSANDS of years of observations..." negates the my statement that the various gods are unsubstantiated beliefs (myths) is a combination of several fallacies. These fallacies include the Appeal to Authority Fallacy (relying on revered mystics), the Bandwagon Fallacy (relying on the number of people believing), and the Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy (a major generator of superstition). The thousands of years of belief in Egyptian gods didn't make those beliefs real either.

The truth being disregarded is that the useful and meaningful truth within these beliefs is negligible, and that the beliefs themselves are false. You're welcome to state whatever salient truths you imagine these beliefs convey (that outweigh all the nonsense).

I am biased toward truth and Truth, and I welcome enrichment of those. Bullshit can take a number...

@racocn8 first of all ... in order for your scientific method to even apply the hypothesis developed must be one that is not only testable but also FALSIFIABLE. That is it must be possible to disprove it. If that is not possible then the hypo falls outside the scope of science. Once outside the scope of science those little logic points you want to make become nothing but arguments for and against the possibility and your points add to nothing but a determination of relevance.

As for the truth being disregarded - thats where you miss the point entirely. Zealotry yields results. Results that may be guided. At that point it IS a control mechanism utilizing the programming language of the mind and body. In the Indus valley they knew nothing of dopamine and adrenaline and the limbic system. They didnt organize their understanding of the human body in the same manner we do today and their educated guesses were based solely on observed cause and effect. They had no clue what was causing the brainwashing and focus so they sought repeatable practices that had already led to the desired effect. We have the ability to understand the actual mechanisms for much of this today so we can redefine much of their science (something I discuss with my Indian physicians quite often), but there are still portions that we are mere novii in understanding ... like psychology. Many of the practices that we do follow today were borne of the thousands of years of Indus valley study and debate. So no evidence is not evidence of nothing existing.

@JeffMesser Hardly. No evidence IS evidence of nothing existing. It may not be PROOF of absence, but it contributes enormously to the probability. The absence of evidence is evidence of absence, and we may reliably assign the existence of the many gods as negligibly likely. People with that knowledge may reliably discard such notions as utter nonsense. We can and do see that those who do otherwise are fooling themselves, disinforming others, and murdering truth. People may also regard the purveyors of that unfalsifiable information as misinformed, deluded, psychotic or scammers; or all of the above.

@racocn8 no. no evidence is NOT proof of nothing existing. you are just flat out wrong there. you need a better education if you actually believe that.

@JeffMesser. I specifically said "It may not be PROOF of absence". With such poor reading comprehension, it's not surprising how deluded you are.

@racocn8 a lack of evidence is not proof of non-existence. if it's just contributing to the probability then cut out the "where's your proof" bullshit and move forward to other methods. all of your other little comments are just pure opinion. thats all. and thats exactly the point. yours is just an opinion. no better than my own.

no, you dont. you do it at home, or on the way to work in your car, or (as I do) while working out.

@JeffMesser like saying thank you jesus, thank you lord, while driving your car. Same difference.

@TimeOutForMe do you know anything about neurology and psychology and psychiatry?

@JeffMesser it's playing on you.

@TimeOutForMe now you're the one being delusional. if you cannot comprehend dopamine and the limbic system then you need a better education before engaging in this conversation.

@JeffMesser i am free of this mess you're in.
Have a good day. Like I say, whatever is rocking your boat rock on

@TimeOutForMe go take some classes

@JeffMesser nope thank you. I'm free from this "religion".

@TimeOutForMe don't be ignorant. learn something.

@JeffMesser Don't be arrogant! Understand your self.

@Atheist3 just keep fighting it. you're so special that only you have figured everything out. only you.

I have my doubts but I must keep trying to seek truth.

@JeffMesser Search is about doubt or you wouldn’t search.

Enquiry is gift. We will never ever understand all the time we perceive an ‘other’ because of the unknown in the field that creates a division and prevents union.

In some places the caste system is getting stronger, in part in reaction to modernizing attempts.

@Petter
...and which stems from hinduism. Jeff is deluded if he thinks those two can be separated. He is also focusing on one language group's idea of hinduism.
...as the meaning changes and can become very challenging when tamils argue there language is the oldest in India and that there books have been copied and distorted and used for separation of human beings to obtain greed and power over others.
...is definitely a religion when you put your hands together on forehead or chest and give thanks to the supernatural, belief in karma etc the madness that keeps them behind, shun sectors of humans as untouchables etc and it's from these writing that christianity stems as the West wanted something as fancy and degrading towards mankind.

advaita vedanta is based on science and psychology.

@JeffMesser Psychology of religion, sure, but the science of religion needs to be subjected to the scientific method.

@Atheist3 you don't know anything about the scientific method.

@JeffMesser Who are you?

@Atheist3 someone who obviously understands scientific testing more than yourself.

@JeffMesser Then please educate me on the scientific method & tell me how this is applied to religion.

@Atheist3 you tell me how to deflect a meter action with quantum movement.

@Atheist3 I am still waiting ... how will we achieve meter deflection on quantum movement?

@JeffMesser I'm waiting for you to educate me. BTW, the scientific method is applied to other scientific endeavors besides quantum mechanics. How would you apply the scientific method to religion?

@Atheist3 is the question beyond your grasp? "besides quantum mechanics" ... do you even understand the question? are you familiar with what causes a meter deflection? you people that purport to be scientific crack me up sometimes. if you don't know how measurement works and you're clueless about epistemology then you're doing nothing more than spewing out talking points. which pramanas do you accept and by what school? do you people read anything??

ok

I can't explain that away. Coming from the west I don't like it BUT as I grew to understand it the ideas at least became less repulsive. There are different stages of life and roles in society and the vedas define those and the duties associated with each. The ideas behind it are sound, but in reality it becomes too restrictive as civilization matures. Keep in mind that the vedas were formulated thousands of years ago and at that time it was probably a pretty diverse and fair system. You were a holy man/teacher (Brahman) or a soldier/public official (Kshatriya) or a shopkeeper/farmer (Vaishya) or a laborer/slave (Shudra). Each of these roles involved different duties and had their own associated rules. Those duties varied also according to your stage in life as well. You start off a student then you become a homeowner then a retiree then a renunciant. These stages actually fit rather well for human life in general and I myself am a renunciant (sannyasin) albeit in a modified fashion. Problem is despite using various secondary canon such as the puranas to update their beliefs these distinctions are hard to fit into current society. So I can't just explain them away nor can I say they should apply today. But I understand them and their intent.

@JeffMesser Under the basic principle of universal human rights, we must, in my opinion, reject outright any principle that privelges an accident of birth, as this implies (or asserts) that a force (or process) outside of our understanding of nature is behind a kharmic determination.

@JeffMesser I don't know if you have read Yuval Harari's book Sapiens but he has some interesting theories on how it developed.

@Moravian yep. I recommend it to people all the time.

@p-nullifidian well, that's your right.

@JeffMesser you're going on and on about one style or sect of hinduism which is perhaps modem (compared to ancient) with all these fancy words. It's a religion regardless. ...to go into detail is a waste of time honestly.

@TimeOutForMe if you would get some objectivity for the slightest moment and consider the "control" effect then you might start to understand. otherwise you can just stay close minded and ignorant.

@JeffMesser i chose to ignore religion in its entirety, quite open-mindedly may I add.

@TimeOutForMe psychiatry and biology and medicine and psychology are SCIENCE. you are just being ignorant.

@JeffMesser i see where you're going with this. I was born into the shit. I broke free thanks. You can continue rocking your boat.

@TimeOutForMe you don't think I was born into it? I sat up at night in bed bawling because I couldnt stop thinking about women's breasts and was convinced I'd be going to hell. so don't give me some song and dance. use your damn brain instead of being so close minded.

@JeffMesser you're closing your brain to all this nonsense.

Islam? No "they" are not. that is wrong.

@JeffMesser What the fuck r you talkin' about? "If you can't state your case simply, then you simply don't know enough." Albert Einstein

@MissRogan
Islam came into thousands of years later. Hinduism is soooo much older than Islam.

@TimeOutForMe Just b/c something is hoary with age doesn't make it true.

@Atheist3 yip I agree on that. Same ol shit.
...was just explaining to @MissRogan that it's not the same as Islam.