"Who the fuck cares about some idiot posting crap in a website who nobody has heard of about religion, satan and shit."

While I'd never heard of this site, my friends were rather clear that they were well aware of it and were dismayed at the opinions put forth by what they considered to be a prominent publication. From the other comments here, a few other people seem to be interested in the issues expressed and there is some variety of opinion about what's going on. I posted the link and my commentary to illustrate that harm can be done by those who hold positions of influence in religious circles using twisted logic and skewed priorities that will likely convince readers/followers/etc., to engage in practices that are harmful to themselves and to society generally.

"And now you posted that crap here and made me read and waste time on shit, time that I will never recover."

I didn't make you read anything. I posted a link and my thoughts in the Religion and Spirituality forum. What you did after that was entirely up to you.

"Thanks a lot pal!"

I don't suspect by your tone that we're pals.

"Next time I suggest you leave religious mental masturbation articles like this in the cesspool of religious bullshit nobody with half a brain even pays attention to!"

Your suggestion has been noted.

@resserts your first paragraph response directly contradicts your second response. You post shit, interested people read, waste of time. Great if you follow my suggestion.

@Mofo1953 Oh, I won't be following your suggestion. I've just noted it. It will receive exactly as much consideration as it deserves.

@resserts do whatever you want to do. Who gives a shit? Not me.

@LimitedLight of course you can't be sure, you said it yourself, your light is limited.

@LimitedLight no, do you?

I had read similar info, that those patients who have a serious case that requires hospitalization and recover will sustain at least temporary lung damage, some it is expected will be permanent lung damage. What you don't hear much info on is the actual gruesome effect this virus has on the lungs as it breaks down the cellular wall in the lung and causes the victim to slowly strangle on a pink foam mixture of blood and mucous in the lungs. This is a slow and painful way to die and thankfully the patients are often delirious and because they are quarantined so they die alone, except for the attending health workers. No final words to loved ones, no comforting hand as you slip away to nothingness.

Agreed. Death is the most imminent concern, but the long-term health implications are by no means to be discounted. Thank you for adding meaningfully to the conversation.

Yes, thank you. That was precisely the point I was making. The influence people in prominent positions within religious circles is immense and the nature of religious faith often magnifies that influence. Religion is more immune to argument than most other group memberships, though I'd say political allegiance is right up there and people are making bad decisions based on emotional political ideologies.

I think there's a wide spectrum of religious views, and I really think most people, religious or otherwise, have good intentions. Religious leaders, on the other hand, I am more skeptical of — but even then I know many priests and ministers that I think genuinely want to help people and provide comfort in times of distress. But there are charlatans, too, in great numbers, who are more interested in money, power, and/or allegiance than in the ostensible message they preach. In the case of the author of this article, I don't see an underlying motivation — I truly think this is what he believes — but that's what's so terrifying about it, because they can look at the risk to others and still say that putting those lives at risk is a good thing while curtailing any social action is giving oneself over to evil.

Agreed. Religion isn't the only avenue by which these ideas are spread. I do think it's an effective way, but so are some political ideologies. Emotion overrules facts so often.

That is false
IF we flatten the curve lives will be saved
If we do not life will be lost

AND
I am not talking about corona virus at all. I am talking about just the Collateral damage.

THE PROBLEM is our GLOBAL health care systems are inadequate to face a viral bloom. IF we fail to flatten the curve, then the sys becomes overwhelmed to the point that a broken limb can wait a few days for treatment, and heart attacks all become fatal, because all the vents are in use.

The collateral damage of the virus is likely to push 2 million here in the states alone.

Flattening the curve slows the infection rate, which allows more people to receive medical care, medical care DOES saves lives, every day, and with corona too.

@Davesnothere I really fail to see how people infected with no symptoms burden health care institutions. If cold and flu seasons don't do this, how can covid?

Also, the people who die from covid are vulnerable due to already weakened immune symptoms. These people would die from a cold, flu and most certainly pneumonia. All contagious.

The mortality rate is well below the 4% being reported, bexause many people who carry thw virus, show no symptoms and are never tested.

This saving lives bit is wholly contrived by people seeking credit for doing nothing. i.e. govt and people who worship govt.

@BryanLV " I really fail to see how people infected with no symptoms burden health care institutions."
New numbers fromIceland point to nearly 50% asymptomatic spread.

First, they spread it to folkslike me and kill us.
They don't know they have it, or are infecting and killing me, but they do.
THAT burdens the hospital.

Imagine if you walked down 6th ave NYC, and punched every third persom full in the face all day
How many pepole have bloody noses in a day?
What if half our population does that?

Does a bloody nose help them? Might it kill a few?
Would you not be responsible for that?

"Also, the people who die from covid are vulnerable due to already weakened immune symptoms."
FALSE
Young Fit people also die of it, more older people with weakened systems die from it.

This arguement has ZERO ETHICAL value, your just saying "ah they are old, let em die"
You going to give up your job to become a gravedigger to cope with the surge?
This idea makes YOU look callous and uncaring as a human. Its ok for everyones grandparents to doe from this so you are not inconvienced?

"These people would die from a cold, flu and most certainly pneumonia. "
False
The spread rate of covid is 2-3 THOUSAND times as contageous as cold or flu. Thus more people get sick, more at risk people get ill, the hospitals swamp and your living in 1918 "when the bodies were stacked like cordwood in the streets."

"This saving lives bit is wholly contrived by people seeking credit for doing nothing"

THIS is wholy false. I'm an old NBC NCO, this virus is here to stay. It's a newly evolved lifeform, sprewading, with EACH transmission anpother chance for the virus to mutate AGAIN, to become more lethal, more resistant to treatment

"Looking further into the future, what do you anticipate? Will COVID-19 ever disappear?

"What it looks like is that we’re going to have a substantial wave of this disease right through basically the globe unless something very different happens in the southern hemisphere. And the question then is: What’s going to happen? Is this going to disappear completely? Are we going to get into a period of cyclical waves? Or are we going to end up with low level endemic disease that we have to deal with? Most people believe that that first scenario where this might disappear completely is very, very unlikely, it just transmits too easily in the human population, so more likely waves or low level disease.

A lot of that is going to depend on what we as countries, as societies, do. If we do the testing of every single case, rapid isolation of the cases, you should be able to keep cases down low. If you simply rely on the big shut down measures without finding every case, then every time you take the brakes off, it could come back in waves. So that future frankly, may be determined by us and our response as much as the virus."--Dr. Bruce Aylward WHO corona Virus point man

@Davesnothere "New numbers fromIceland point to nearly 50% asymptomatic spread."

• Point to. Not prove.

"First, they spread it to folkslike me and kill us.
They don't know they have it, or are infecting and killing me, but they do. THAT burdens the hospital."

• Like, say, a cold or flu? When have they ever burdened hospitals?

.........

Im just going to stop there because youre trying so hard to be convincing that you are throwing things like grammar, spelling, sentence structure and facts completely out of the window.

You are using so many mights, coulds, ifs, and maybes that any situation in life could kill everyone and we should all sit, paralyzed by fear because you are scared.

Meanwhile, my daughter, her mother who has lupus an auto-immume disease and her 85ish year old gramma just traveled to China and Thailand in February and are now back state side, happy and healthy.

Im sure you and others will continue to pander to peoples illogical fears for attention. Have fun with that. Im going to go take in some more credible information. I leave you to your opinions. I stand unconvinced by your projections.

If saving lives isn't the point, what is the reason for flattening the curve? The only reason I'm aware of is that a lot of people will require medical treatment at the peak of infection and we won't have medical capacity to treat all of them, resulting in people dying needlessly because their symptoms cannot be treated and putting others at risk who don't have COVID-19 but are otherwise sick or injured and cannot get prompt medical treatment that could save their lives. In Italy, several days ago, there was already rationing of medical services to make room, where they were no longer (at least in some areas) admitting anyone 60 years old or older — the people most at risk of dying from the symptoms of COVID-19. While the disease itself has no cure, the fever and pneumonia that often are the direct cause of death can be treated with some efficacy of hospitals aren't overburdened. That's what slowing the spread is intended to help with.

@resserts

Dont lots of people get medical attention during cold and flu season?

People arent dying at a higher rate from covid, than they are from flu or cold. So how is this overburdening supposed to take place? No one is explaining how people showing up with cold or flu, in much larger numbers, does not burden the health care system; but because people have covid, that does.

@BryanLV The spread is more rapid and the potential at the peak of infection is what's being mitigated through social distancing. If you aren't following the spread of this disease and how it differs from typical rhinovirus and influenza, I certainly won't be the one to provide complete instruction on the matter. I'd suggest keeping an eye on the data as it's updated, but it sounds like you have made your mind up and aren't going to change your view. Early on, I thought it looked rather mild — but I've been paying attention to the progression and I've updated my own views on how serious it will be based on the rapid rate of new infections. I won't argue with you, though. You have the resources to learn more about the situation if you're interested, but I can't help you beyond what I've already explained.

@Davesnothere I don't disagree with what you are saying. I do have a question about your source regarding this statement, "The spread rate of covid is 2-3 THOUSAND times as contageous as cold or flu." Where did you get this information from?

@BryanLV
[sciencenews.org]

@resserts There is no doubt that this virus has features that allow it to spread itself out and create lots of carriers. I believe this is an area of agreement.

I do notice, however, that your initial response was that the response will save lives. But in this last reply the purpose is now simply to "mitigatr the peak". But you know what else has peaks? Influenza and the cold. As stated I have been following. This is why the hyperbole being illicited here shocks me.

I appreciate your thoughtful response and the softening of your position. I do take issue, however, with your implying that I am not educated on the matter and that information will not sway my positions. My positions are educated by the information that is there for everyone. No one is producing credible statistics from credible sources that show this virus to be killing more people, making more people sick, over burdening the medical field in any meaningful way. But that is still the narrative. Why? My best guess is hatred of trump and political agenda.

I have been more than willing to dive into information without insults or condescension. You may want to give that a try unless you have additional information to provide.

Thanks.

@skado Whats your point here?

"Most contagious during first week of symptoms"

Duh! Symptoms mean your immune system is reacting and trying to get the toxins out of your systems through creating mucus, sneezing, coughing, vomitting and fever.

You know what else does that? Influenza and the cold. I know covid is not a cold or flu, but most people don't die because its not more deadly. In fact, most people don't even get sick. Which is my point. The people who die would die from catching any sort of cold, influenza, virus.

@AstralSmoke He got it from the PFA method.

Pulled From A--.....

Fake numbers and easily debunked fake facts destroy credibility.

@BryanLV
If you won’t read it, I can’t help you.

@skado If you presume I need help, perhaps we have the first issue.

The second issue is that you also presume that I did not read it.

I asked you what YOUR point was, but you clearly have not taken enough information from it to pose one?

@BryanLV
Best wishes.

@skado
Likewise.

Ummm, do you understand that if hospitals are overrun, you could die from a broken ankle?....gangrene, anyone? Chest pains? Chew an aspirin! Too bad so sad

I heard it explained as 'even if' no more lives were saved etc. Not as a certainty that no more would be saved. Preventing the spread of the disease doesn't only mean postponing infections but also the possibility of reducing them.

@AnneWimsey I'm not sure why you picked me out of the lot. I was asking for source information. But anyway, I hope you have a good day.

@BryanLV

The idea of mitigating the peak is the "how" of saving lives. I'm not softening my position on this, but rather being specific about what form it takes. The spread of COVID-19 is more rapid than seasonal cold and flu viruses, and that causes a higher peak at the height of contagion. If the spread is slowed, the peak number of cases is lower, and that makes it more manageable by healthcare providers. It's not hyperbole to look to Italy and see how our response has been similar, and to recognize that they had difficulty treating everyone who was infected — and there's no reason to think it's reached its peak in Italy yet, or the United States where we're a couple of weeks behind in terms of initial contagion.

There is evidence to support that this will strain limited medical provisions in ways that other illnesses we're more accustomed to have not in recent years. The United States has a better ratio of healthcare providers per capita than many nations, but we can see how other developed nations have been overwhelmed and have struggled. As for statistics, they're updating daily.

I do apologize that I came off as brusque as I did. That wasn't my intention. I was running late this morning and was hurrying through my message to you. While I do think there's information that you're not accounting for, I didn't mean to be condescending. When I said that I couldn't be the one to help you with this, I meant that I'm not in a position to do so — I can't explain the mountain of information coming out of various countries about the spread and the impact it's having. There are better sources than me for that, with charts and graphs that can show patterns and context that I can't do in a paragraph or two. As for what I said about you having your mind made up and being unlikely to change your view, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have assumed.

@AnneWimsey The problem that so many of you are having is that you are cherry picking as many points as possible and exaggerating the actual numbers.

And almost unanimously people are conflating infectious, with deadly. The virus is more infectious, not more deadly than a cold, influenza and definitely not pneumonia.

This article has medical doctors who make claims that do not fit your analysis. This article is posted by someone who is fear-mongering in a similar way you are. They just did not realize that this article states:

-People stop making infectious virus once the body’s antibody response kicks in.

-After the eighth day of symptoms, the researchers could still detect the virus’s genetic material, RNA, in patients’ swabs or samples, but could no longer find infectious viruses. 

-"...finding RNA or pieces of a virus in a swab or sample is no guarantee that the virus is “live,” or infectious", says Ali Khan, dean of the College of Public Health at the University of Nebraska Medical Center in Omaha

-"Plummeting numbers of infectious virus after antibody production turns on “means that after about 10 days or so, you’re not likely to be infecting other people,” 

-Most had coughs, but only two developed a fever, the most common symptom reported in other studies.  Most symptoms were mild and one person never developed any at all. (Again to your and others point of overwhelming hospitals. Infection does not equal sick. Most people show no symptoms and would not go to a hospital. More people go to an er for a cold and that does not burden hospitals. How is this different?)

Whats actually burdening hospitals is people with mild to no symptoms showing up at hospitals to be tested, when they would never do that for a cold. This is happening because of wide-spread fear mongering by soapboxers, news and govt officials.

[sciencenews.org]

"@BryanLV "...infected with no symptoms," mens that a person is a vector for spreading the disease, and that he/she will develop sx down the road, whether intense ones, or not, will not matter to those newly infected!

@BirdMan1 I understand that, but if 96% of people infected end up being fine; how is this more deadly than the flu or cold? Answer: it's not. There are no shut downs or panics for cold/flu season; which kill more people.

Most infected people never show symptoms. Non sick people do not go to hospitals and they certainly don't just drop dead.

At this point this is an excuse to prop up the world economies with stimulus. Govts will continue the scare tactics until they get all their money printed.

@BryanLV ummmmm, the source You cite states that approx 2/3 of the world's population will need to be infected to create effective control, so WTH are you inventing? I can read...you?

@AnneWimsey

Read yes. Comprehend? Also, I only cite it because one of the fear-mongerers posted it as a response.

I noticed you dodged every point I made without response, only to come up with an unintelligible retort.

Goal post move attempt: Failed.

@BryanLV imo it is pointless, and surely best to enjoy your healthy immunity in peace
keep calm and garlic on yo
climbin Mt Sopris Fri, if youre ever in the neighborhood holla k

@bbyrd009 Im googling m Sopris now! Thanks buddy.

Enjoy you climb and please stay safe.

"At this point this is an excuse to prop up the world economies with stimulus. Govts will continue the scare tactics until they get all their money printed."

[imdb.com]
ha that was so legit

"winner"

MATH
Common Cold, sars, Mers and flu have an infection mortality of 0.1
We expect Corona to be about 2

SO Flu, cold ect are MAGNITUDES less lethal than Corona virus.

The Common psychological reaction to a novel virus is denial or panic, you both sound like your in denial to me.

It takes time to adjust to the reality that a new life form has evolved, and it thinks you are quite tasty. C-19 will alter life and lifestyle from now until we have a vaccine, in the way AIDS altered human life and lifestyle

Only this is much more contageous than AIDS and will likely kill most AIDS patients, and breast cancer patients, and all cancer patients, heart attack patients, asthma patients, former and current smokers and vapers
All those and more will be badly impacted, sick, hospitalized (20% or about 600,000 hospitalizations 10-15% of those will require an ICU.

@linxminx There is no building a tolerance for the cold virus and flu vaxxs do not work. In fact, cold and flu are more deadly because they mutate each time they reach a new host.

Im not trying to be difficult, I just fail to see how people infected with no symptoms burden health care institutions. If cold and flu seasons don't do this, how can covid?

@Davesnothere You mean shady math and exaggerated extrapolations.

You take a projection and claim that this makes something magnitudes more lethal, but capitalizing words and projections do not strengthen your positions.

Facts are what strengthen positions and the factual numbers simply do not align with your claims. Colds kill 50-60k people per year. Right now covid is on pace to kill far fewer people than that, because the places with the largest populations are seeing a deckine in mortality. Its not exploding exponentially like projections claim. Those are the facts as of now, not projections.

@Davesnothere All airborne viruses are more contagious than aids.

Aids is a sexually transmitted disease. Im not even sure why you would bring aids into the discussion. I guess because its got a scary stigma and you are clearly attempting to spread irrational fears.

Which is pretty much the entire point a few of us are trying to make.

@BryanLV "Im not trying to be difficult, I just fail to see how people infected with no symptoms burden health care institutions."

BY SPREADING THE VIRUS!

CORNONA VIRUS IS 2-3 thousand times the problem flu is.

And it not "shady Math", the math coming out of C-19 is imcomplete LIKE EVERY OUTBREAK

Do you know whe we get the good numbers?
AFTER the outbreak.

We have LIVE real time numbers, which we can compare to previous outbreaks.

FLU .1 % of 368,000,000 (USA population) =368,000 cases of flu, some of which will need hospital or ICU some of those prove fatal,

C-19 2% of 368,000,000 (USA population) =7,360,000 cases of C-19, some of which will need hospital or ICU some of those prove fatal,
We don't HAVE that many beds, respirators or personel.

IF its 4% it 14 MILLION people ill, 20% of them needing hospital and/or and ICU
We don't have that much stuff to deal with it

IF none of that even intrests you then understand this
IF you get Corona Virus, it might well make YOU into Me (elevated at risk), because it ROUTINELY causes lung damage.
Yea, your young and live through it, but have Emphesema, or horrid asthma forever, or at least till the next wave when You are Me.

Just so you know, c-19 is likely to kill me.
Your attitude to that feels to me like your sticking a gun in my face

You stated it perfectly in your first few words.

"I don't know." You definitely don't know, or you wouldn't be saying such stupid insane things yourself!

Please shut your mouth if this is what you're saying to anyone around you, especially anyone who can be influenced.

Your attitude has already been the cause of many deaths.

Shut the fuck up.

@Athena @Athena Of course you chime in with insults and offer no credible information.

It aligns perfectly with everything else you post. Rubbish!

I will not shut my mouth and you certainly will not make me.

I have caused no deaths, just because you said so.

Youre as ignorant as your response.

@Davesnothere

"FLU .1 % of 368,000,000 (USA population) =368,000 cases of flu, some of which will need hospital or ICU some of those prove fatal,

C-19 2% of 368,000,000 (USA population) =7,360,000 cases of C-19, some of which will need hospital or ICU some of those prove fatal,
We don't HAVE that many beds, respirators or personel.

IF its 4% it 14 MILLION people ill, 20% of them needing hospital and/or and ICU"

These are projections for c19. Do you understand that projections are not reality? Please answer yes or no.

There were 16 million confirmed cases of flu reported by the cdc in 2019. Which completely blows up your projections. I guess thats why you left that out? Your numbers are so off because you are trying to argue from an agenda, so youre conflating and misrepresenting numbers to fit the narrative you want people to buy into.

Youre just making poor projections and using shady numbers and maths to validate your opinions.

@BryanLV

Haha.. nice try.

You think my posts are rubbish? How do you know unless you keep reading them!

Or do you just me?

Your downplay of this virus is the rubbish. I don't need to post the facts and numbers.. it's all over the place and entire countries are shut in as a result!

Please, look in the mirror to see the rubbish here.

@Davesnothere By the way, im not that young. I am approaching 50. Also, I have had asthma and other related issues since childhood. I am hyper sensitive to any sort of respiratory virus. Upon learning about covid, I researched the virus and where it lies for the list of infectious disease and it is near the bottom in regards to mortality. Of course there will be complications after catching any disease or virus.

Theres no news there. Also, covid is not mutating much if at all. Which is why flu vaxxs don't work, but it is believed that a covid vaxx could be effective. So there you go again spreading false information, stoking irrational fears.

@Athena Youre in every thread. Ive read enough and never given a "thumbs up" to a single thing youve stated. So theres that.

I am not downplaying anything. Of course you lack specifics and try to make it about you! I am simply stating and discussing information. None of which you have provided. Thanks for nothing!

This is about information. I would expect you to be out of place in that arena. You have met my expectations.

Ciao.

@BryanLV

You're hilarious. The facts are everywhere and you don't have them.

Your crush on me is obvious.

@Athena

Haha girl you are crazy.

This national gov't has not been over reacting, by a long shot. Trump did a 180 only after Faux News started to realize that they were giving dangerous mis-information to their very vulnerable audience of fools!

@BirdMan1 "Never let a good crisis go to waste."' Rham Emmanuel

At this point this is nothing more than an excuse to prop up the worlds already failing economies with stimulus. Govts will continue the scare tactics until they get all their money printed. History tells us they will certainly fear monger in order to achieve mometary and political ends. This is no different.

If you believe the news is factual or false simply because of the outlet, and not because of the reporting; you are already a lost cause for humanity.

Maybe get someone to pray for you? haha

@BryanLV i mean how much more obvious does it need to be

@BryanLV "These are projections for c19. Do you understand that projections are not reality? Please answer yes or no."
YES, I grasp what projections are. Do you grasp that in epidemiology you either prepare for the worst or suffer the consequences?
To not prepare is to court 14 million or so deaths.
To underprepare is to court 10 million or less.
To prepare is to court hundreds of thousands or less.

"There were 16 million confirmed cases of flu reported by the cdc in 2019. Which completely blows up your projections. I guess thats why you left that out? "
NO, I was using the general mortality of flu .1 percent.
NOT it infectivity.
YOU should consider that, if c-19 is three times as infectious as Flu (which is what we think with real time numbers) then before the bloom is over its 16 million x 3 infections or 48 million out of 368 million. Now parcel that out, that is almost every family in America burying 1 or more members.

That is an acceptable risk to you, rather than risk profit for a while?
If so I find you ethics untenable.

" I researched the virus and where it lies for the list of infectious disease and it is near the bottom in regards to mortality."
It is low on the mortality chart, compared to something like ebola (which is harder to catch as its strictly blood boune but 70% lethal. If c-19 were like ebola then the society we live in dies, 70 out of 100 die, by comparison you'd think 2-3 percent small.
BUT that does not calculate OUT, and include the masses we have in population and the ability of our medical system to function.

Perhaps you will believe its a threat when the bodies start piling up.
I HOPE that won't be so, but the only intelligent thing to do in a Pandemic is to assume it will and work very hard to prevent that.

The issue with you minimalist mindset is the same thing I was taught to avoid in NBC thirty+ years ago. That is when dealing qwith an unknown agent you assume its the worst, and as you learn more you decrease you protective posture. If you underetimate it at any point you might well be dead. As you come to grips with the unknown agent you learn about it through study, and then issue directives for posture to others.

Better to look like you are overreacting than to underreact fataly.

Look, it looks to me like your still caught up in politics, and of course all sides will jockey for their crumbs even in a disaster.
The Virus does not care about your politics, or mine, or any of that. It is a newly evolved organism which finds us tasty.
Mind your PPE

@Davesnothere You type these long ass posts, to say a whole lot of nothing.

Not falling for your fear-mongering. Ive done enough research to grasp the gravity of the situation.

Cheers.

@BryanLV You don't grasp the gravity of the situation, obviosly. I also doubt you have read enough if you think a few paragraphs long.

Your attitude endagers others and yourself. It indicates a lack of human empathy.

@BryanLV I don't think you have "done enough research to grasp the gravity of the situation."

It doesn't take a whole lot of research to grasp that going from 0 cases in December to almost 95,000 confirmed cases now, and approaching 1500 deaths in that same time span, just in the US, is not anything like the flu or the cold. It's several orders of magnitude more virulent, especially when we realize that the confirmed cases are likely only 20 percent of the actual infections.

That does not call for fear, but it does call for all due caution and all possible measures to control the spread of the virus as we try to create a vaccine.

The situation is more grave than you want to realize. All you have to do is look at the curve of numbers over time to realize that.

Oh, I agree that this is not exclusive to religious people. This was just an example of what sounds like a sincerely held religious belief being used to influence people to abdicate any social responsibility for harm they might do, arguing in this case that to do anything to mitigate the spread of disease would be evil. But there are other arguments from extremist libertarians and conspiracy theorists and so on who believe other things but arrive at the same conclusion that they should do nothing to curtail the spread of this disease disease. It's so sad that we live among people who think so little of their neighbors or for the wellbeing of society in general.

Fortunately, many Christians (and maybe Muslims, though I'm less familiar with the breadth of beliefs in Islam) is that this life is a gift from God and that they are stewards of the Earth. I don't have belief in any gods, but I appreciate the ones who do who don't treat life like it's meaningless or that they have no responsibility to their environment or to their fellow human. Most of the devout Christians I know are socially responsible people, though it's likely that I haven't befriended the more selfish ones (though not specifically because of their religion, just because I find them to be unpleasant people).

Yep! Theology needs to square so many circles, so it becomes quite convoluted and the logic becomes exceptionally twisted. I was reared Catholic and I studied a great deal of theology in college, and I don't think I'm being disingenuous when I say that Catholic theology was what started me on the path to non-belief. Catholicism is heavy on deontology, and I found myself wholeheartedly disagreeing with almost every rule that was put forth. I can happily do without the evangelists and apologists and proselytizers.