@jacar
another fine example of faulty logic.
You go from
these people were intubated
therefore intubation killed them
Bullshit.
Let's look at another example using your same 'logic':
Someone has a heart attack.
A defibrillator is used to try and revive him.but he dies.
Therefore the defibrillator killed him.

By strikingly similar logic I can 'prove' that drinking water causes cancer. After all, everone who gets cancer has drunk water...

And, please, stop calling it the china virus.
That's a racist white supremacist term.
Those who use that term are also generally trying to divert attention from the horrible job that djt has done in responding to the virus.

China 19, seriously dude, racist much?

I think this article points out the most severe stage someone can reach in hospital. It is surely not the only stage someone will reach.

Simple bi-pap assisted breathing would occur before this - unless breathing has become truly compromised.

Condolences on the asthma - I share your condition - how do you find mask wearing? At first I wasn't sure I was going to be able to tolerate it - it set me off each and every time - but I seem to be able to tolerate it now that I've gotten past the claustrophobia of it.
I intend to sew masks with more face room to help with that actually.

@RavenCT masks suck for my breathing, but I wear them.

Or as my SO calls them "Plague Rats".

It is but the medical teams do their best to make it less so. That much I've seen.

That is how we get immunized, Tom, by getting “infected.” They are the exact same vector, just ask a doctor or nurse

@bbyrd009 Except for people like me, who are over and have a heart condition, or something else that makes them vulnerable, getting infected to build immunity is an unacceptable risk. If infected, I stand a good chance of at least getting seriously ill and ending up on a ventilator or dying. The right of younger, less vulnerable people to not wear masks and run around risking getting infected so that they may later run into me and infect me at a store or some other public place, or infect a medical worker who treats them for the virus, is not acceptable to me. I am fine with people taking their risks if it only stood a chance of impacting them.

Won't let me edit my comment. Wanted to add that I am over 60 yo. above.

@TomMcGiverin Well Tom I’ve never denied that if you are in poor health you should probably take measures to protect yourself, OK? But that doesn’t mean the whole rest of the world needs to wear a mask so that you can walk around, although I do empathize with your situation. YOU need to take the proper precautions; not me. No, hell no, I will not compromise my future immunity for your present sickness, sorry about that

@bbyrd009 You are a selfish ass and probably a Trump supporter too, I bet. I do not deserve to be treated as a second class, expendable citizen for your "freedom". I have no choice but to occaisionally go out in public where I may end up around younger people like you who are unknowingly infected. Your being selfish just makes those necessary risks on my part more risky than they need to be. That is why I am a socialist and you are likely a Trumper..I doubt you empathize at all, asshole...

@TomMcGiverin Good points!! This forum has made me realize we need an eye roll reaction and I'd love to see one of tongue sticking out. But OMG the discussion has been enlightening!

@TomMcGiverin i understand how you feel, but if you would consider the practicality of asking everyone in public to bubble themselves for you, at the risk of their own future immunity, Tom. I know this is kind of harsh on a personal level, but viruses exist to remove the weak from the herd, that the rest of the herd remain strong. No offense meant ok, but in a sense you were the selfish ass who did not take care of yourself, right? If we all bubble ourselves, we all end up compromised. Best of luck to you ok

@bbyrd009 My heart condition, atril fib, was inherited from both of my parents. You going to blame me for that? You are a selfish asshole and I bet most members on this thread agree with me..Maybe you need to suffer a little if you get this infection and maybe it might teach you some compassion and real empathy..You may live to get old one day or develop an inherited medical condition. I hope you receive the same lack of consideration from others as you extend to those like me. Karma can be a bitch, bbyrd...

@TomMcGiverin well, i'm sorry you see it that way, and i do empathize with your plight; but i don't think the congenital defect would much inhibit efforts to keep your immunity high anyway? And fwiw its more existing lung ailments that would make you higher risk? And certainly, i would take responsibility for my own public exposure at least until i felt more confident in my immune system, and maybe got a lung survey. But no, the whole world can't stop for you imo, honestly sorry

we are, all, carriers of thousands on thousands of "alien" dna, bacteria, etc, and to cut yourself off biologically from the herd is just plain suicide, ok, pure and simple, any epi with any sense will agree

@SeaGreenEyez ok well i understand how you feel, and i guess i might feel the same way in your position. Fwiw i wish you the best ok, but you might contemplate a world full of auto-immune-diseased people procreating while all the healthy ppl are made sicker due to social isolation? This really is not about me ok, i mean i might die from exposure too, idk. Auto-immune diseases, allergies, etc, are the result of choices, wadr, be they yours or your parents. I have Asperger's, same deal imo

@SeaGreenEyez ha well but you are the one with the self-inflicted auto-immune disease?
You got a pretty mouth, though lol
anyway, i guess obv THE FASCISTS ARE COMING, THE FASCISTS ARE COMING regardless, right

we're all going to be slowly herded into catering more and more, to sicker and sicker entitled ppl, who think the sun rose out their ass, too? ok, good luck with that ok

@bbyrd009 You have Asberger's? What a nonsurprise. Seems like you would be a jerk even without it.

@TomMcGiverin maybe, dunno, but if it means anything to you i am very white, i live in Aspen, and i have allergies too ok; so iow i am hardly blowing my own horn here, i can do entitled and privileged with the best of us i guess

@bbyrd009 Getting immunized with a disease that can kill? No.

That would be like saying "Let's all get infected with Polio and see who survives".

We have a disease that can kill - and it can kill young healthy folk as well as the older and infirm. (It's proven that by taking out health care workers who were in good health and take great care of themselves).

As with Polio you wait for a vaccine. And in the meantime you want EVERYONE to do their part to prevent the spread.

If this is some wave of the future that we're going to get superbugs that can kill people so readily - perhaps wearing a mask in public isn't such a huge price to pay.

But I get the feeling Americans (at least some) are just too self-centered to care about others.
Wearing a mask isn't that huge a burden.

I have asthma - it's hard for me to wear a mask and yet I do so. I figured it out. I could "opt out" but I don't. Why is it so hard for people who are well to comply? Because they don't care about anyone but themselves.

@RavenCT bbyrd is a selfish asshole, that's why I recently blocked him.

Please, please, please do!! I lifted it and shared it from Facebook because it think needs wide dissemination.

@HippieChick58 WILL DO, Paula. Thanks. Facebook is exactly where I'll post it first.

OK but you are spreading death OK? People who isolate from society and then are re-introduced later almost always die, Or get very sick

@SeaGreenEyez ok well fwiw i understand how you feel, and i wish you the best ok

Why would you want to stop paying attention to nurses? That doesn't make sense.

@citronella Because doctors and nurses don’t live as long as the rest of us? You can Google “dead doctors don’t lie” for more

@SeaGreenEyez Well Google could probably help you better there too; but the foods that naturally increase immunity are already pretty well known, garlic, onions, turmeric, chili, lemon, and for extreme cases a three day fast will completely reset anyone’s immunity

Allopathy Will treat your symptoms to death, OK

@SeaGreenEyez ok well i sure believe you should do what you think best ok. I never heard of an immune system not responding to garlic--which is not homeopathic, is it?--and def not to a 3 day fast, but after all that is not easy. Tomatos are nightshades, meaning they create an acid response, and no offense but it is the S.A.D. that ppl are really dying from i guess, tomatos at the top of the list

@SeaGreenEyez "Just STFU already"
ok, tells me all i need to know tbh, have a nice day

we got ppl deathly allergic to peanuts, too, do we outlaw peanuts? Make it illegal to process peanuts along with other nuts? Hell no, the peanut-allergic ppl are responsible for their own health, and nut-processors are not held liable for peanut-allergy deaths, etc. Doesnt mean we don't have sympathy for them

still not really getting why it would be that hard to isolate YOURSELF, IF YOU ARE AT RISK duh

I disagree. I wear a mask to protect other people from what I may have picked up, and to protect me from what they may have picked up so we don't spread these germs to the more vulnerable populations. . I am a good driver, but I wear a seat belt because there are too many other drivers that aren't paying attention to their driving. I immunize my kids and myself to protect those who are immunocompromised, I work for a pediatric hospital that is full of kids that are immunocompromised. We all do things to protect the herd, it is part of being a good citizen.

This is why I mask up.

@HippieChick58
Thank you, thank you for your response.
It was well thought out and I appreciated it.

@HippieChick58, if you stated you were wearing an n95 mask, with no gaps to allow the small particles of sputum to excape, if you had stated medical information based on science fact, I woild have respect your suggestion that you do so for others...
if you wore a n95 no gap mask as mentioned above AND goggles, I would believe you were trying to justifiably protect yourself.
If you were preached the standard stated in the last paragraph...I would believe you were just trying to educate and teach people how to effectively protect themselves.

but as none of those are applicable, I am going to have to label you what my critical thinking and observation skills indicate you should be called...a science denier.
Exactly what kind of nurse are you that you think preaching falsehoods, science fiction, will preserve the public health...seems completely contray to the stated goals

@Alchemy Do you have any concept of what is actually being recommended and of why that can be effective? No, wearing a mask will not protect you in and of itself. But if you and everyone around you wears a mask AND maintain at least 6 feet of distance, your chances of transmitting or catching this virus go down dramatically. Have you heard of the peeing meme? This can help you understand the recommended strategy. [reddit.com]

@HippieChick58 I agree with you. "Healthy people shouldn't be wearing masks" is about the worst / dumbest thing I've read today. YES, please wear masks whenever you're out in public. It's all about odds. I'm thinking that person mis-spoke or is very confused.

@Alchemy ummmmm, so you just wander at will breathing all over everybody? Keep the hell away from me!

@MarkWD - lol, yes...I do know all those unscientific cute little memes...and as someone who studied health psychology, the psychology of adherance and compliance, anatomy, physiology, epidemiology, virus transmission precautions, and worked on a study tangentially that resulted in the concept and procedures called UNIVERSAL PRECAUTIONS back in the 90s AND most importantly, probably came down with covid-19 in January...first exposure less than 72 hours before first symptom and was dying 6 hours after the first symptom, oxygen already down to 72% and plummeting, as someone who had to watch doctors flee my emergency room in fear to leave me dying alone for more than 15 effing minutes while IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM so doctors could get appropriate gear on, as someone who has been on antibiotics since January and is still sucking down oxygen and breathing treatments 90 % of each 24 hour period, as someone diagnosed with with not just a lethal secondary infection, but a cluster of deadly mucus plugs that I am still trying to recover from and in the end will probably cause my death, as someone who has the most astronomical odds of dying from the SARS - novel corona virus as anybody on the planet, and
as someone who most probably FRICKEN will, in the end succomb and die from this epidemic...

I am pissed beyond all tolerance at the inadequacy of my countries response, the incompetence or our medical industry, the jokingly bad precautions that have zero scientific validity and everybody acting like the health enforcement militia and threatening ME with violence because I dare onject to the lies, as someone whose critcal inhome care was withdrawn for the sake of stay at home orders, as some one who is aware of people currently going hungry and of people who have died of abuse in nursing homes since since the lockdown began...
the only thing wearing those inadequate masks is doing is telling a lie to the public to aid in reducing panic as is the lie of the 6 foot social distancing circle which science dictates needs to be a minimum of 12 feet without an n95 rated mask...
the only thing these nonscience based
junk rules are doing is aiding in the spread of the virus and increasing the death rate while you all walk around smug and judgemental and being ugly to those of us who have succumbed...making nasty assumption and saying nasty things about us for doing nothing more than making a statement of fact...

WHAT the effff IS WRONG WITH YOU ALL!

As a Registered Nurse: you’re wrong. A strong immune system cannot protect you from everything. I’ve seen young healthy folks who should have been fine, have terrible complications, or die, from ‘routine’ procedures.
General good health is no guarantee with an illness like covid19.
Protect yourself and others, unless you’re too selfish, or self-absorbed to care who you infect. Masks, distancing, frequent handwashing/sanitizer, not touching your face: these measures minimize risk.

@Alchemy I have never claimed to be a nurse. I do however work for a hospital and I read the briefings they send out every day if not more often.

I have an adult child that tested positive for TB when she was 5. We had just moved to Washington state, all children entering the state school districts were required to be tested. No one else in the family or extended family and community we left behind tested positive. The pulmonologist that was also a full bird colonel explained it was possible that someone coughed on her in McDonalds. That child had to take an awful liquid medication for 6 months to kill that germ. She was too young to swallow pills yet. She is 32 now, she STILL remembers the medication.

As with TB, you never know who in a crowd may be carrying an infectious disease. Most people don't deliberately spread disease. But it only takes one person to mess up the next several months of your life. My hospital has sent out information that a cloth face mask will drop your odds of breathing in the disease to about 79%. If the other person is wearing a mask your risk of contamination drops to less than 2%. We are required to wear our cloth masks when we are on the hospital property but away from our desks. If a coworker joins us at our desk we both should be masked. I am willing to bet my hospital has the latest and most up to date information. And yes, they have reported that some of the provider staff have tested positive for Covid. Considering the risk in a population of nearly 3000 one case is very low.

@Alchemy let me know when u want to discuss what type of nurse I am , and when u are ready to talk w a trauma nurse and a 22 yr ER and MICU and SICU nurse about n95s , and simple masking while on pandemic .
Let me know .

@Alchemy I'm sorry you caught it and are still dealing with it. But what you seem to be offering is not persuasive. You are attempting to make an argument from expertise but you do not seem to have an adequate grasp of whatever it is you may have studied in school.

I don't pretend to be an expert but recognize a valid argument when I hear it and I know the best experts to be listening to right now are those in epidemiology like Dr. Fauci. Those with the most relevant expertise are calling for masking and social distancing in public.

Instead of trying so hard to pass off your crackpot ideas as 'knowledgeable' you should be listening to the most relevant experts. Leastwise you should not be spreading the disinformation you've absorbed which might lead other gullible people to follow your example.

@HippieChick58 Well no offense, I know that sounds good, but I guess this is why nurses and doctors don’t live as long as the rest of us. Infection equals immunization, for healthy people anyway. Sequestering yourself from the herd equals death

, @CarolinaGirl60 And I guess those measures also create super bugs, right? Or are we all here for five years ago when they started telling us about how hand sanitizer all the time was a bad idea?

@HippieChick58 “ This is why I mask up.”
“DEAD DOCTORS DONT LIE”

Doctors know about sickness right; not health. And most of them will even admit that. By all means if you were at risk sequester yourself; but if you’re healthy, wearing a mask is suicide

@Bierbasstard OK go with that then, by all means, but recognize that you are taking “health” advice from someone who will statistically not live as long as you will

@HumanistJohn You gonna smoke camels because doctors recommended them to? lol

@HippieChick58 “ I wear a mask to protect other people from what I may have picked up” So, you’ve been wearing a mask your whole life?

@mischl OK well no offense but I’m thinking you’re going to have to live in a bubble for the rest of your life here real soon when you have not built the natural antibodies from coming into contact with the rest of society. Best of luck OK. Drink the Kool-Aid, by all means

@Alchemy Fear does strange things to people, Huh

@SeaGreenEyez “ What would it hurt for the greater good, to be inconvenienced with a mask?” simple, you will not have any immunity to any of the bugs that all of your peers carry, and you will in fact create super bugs by keeping things antiseptic all the time; you don’t remember about five years ago when they told us to stop using antibacterial soap all the time? Your handler’s are trying to kill you, OK? The one percent want you DEAD

@bbyrd009 Whatever, dude. You’re being oppositional and deliberately obtuse. Good luck with that.

@CarolinaGirl60, @Bierbasstard i would sure do what you think is best, but trust me herd immunity requires exposure and even "infection," which is the exact same vector as "immunization" ok, ask any one of your precious, fascist nurses or doctors. People who isolate from society and then attempt to re-enter it die, they don't get sick; they DIE. And harsh as it sounds on a personal level, viruses like c19 are meant to remove the weak from the herd.

Now do i think the immune-compromised and at-risk should take precautions? Definitely; i would prolly be on an uninhabited island right now, were i them. But would i expect the entire rest of the world to bubble up bc i am at risk? As we are seeing, that is complete madness, and can only result in healthy ppls immunity suffering

@HippieChick58 He probably feels entitled to drive drunk too..Sure sounds like a social Darwinist and likely a Libertarian or some other kind of Trumper.

@TomMcGiverin I agree with your assessment.

"so we don't spread these germs to the more vulnerable populations"
instead of the "vulnerable population" taking responsibility and isolating itself, yes; and you will make a nation full of autistics to be preferable, ok, you will crash the herd immunity, and the ones with high immunity who did not isolate but instead gave ppl kisses will be the ones to ride out the storm.

now hate me all you want but all im saying is eat some garlic and onions lol, some honey, some ginger, lemonslimes ceyenne like that ok, and you wanna rebreathe all day in a mask wouldnt stop c19 anyway, way too lg a gauge, meh go ahead

@HippieChick58, @TomMcGiverin peace

100 years of fire suppression in Cali has resulted in all-consuming conflagrations now; same principle guys

"Being asymptomatic means that you are NOT a healthy person."
ha ok, if you say so
"you are a carrier"
do you have any idea how many things you are currently a "carrier" of? "Carrier" means "immune," doesnt it?

I’ve had it only for surgery, and my throat was still uncomfortably sore. Have had NG tubes a few times: very uncomfortable. Assisting with codes of all ages on the floor/ER, then of newborns in L and D(rarely, thankfully), or crash sections: it’s a brutal procedure, but a necessary one.
So many who haven’t been ill, or worked hands-in in health care just don’t understand what the realities are.

Folks have been known to pull them out. They are supremely uncomfortable.

@CarolinaGirl60 They certainly are. I threatened to pull it out (non-vernally, of course) and they got the idea that I was serious so they had me prove I could breathe normally by taking a few very deep breaths then they pulled it out several hours ahead of schedule. If they didn't, I was going to. It was intolerable having it in.

@Sgt_Spanky I understand. My granny was in heart failure, and we arrived just as her sedation was wearing off. She nearly had hers out by the time I got a CRNA in the room. She was quite the firecracker so was spitting mad. She didn’t remember it being put in, just waking up with it.
When I worked in the hospital, sometimes they were left in when a patient wasn’t making a good breathing effort. Sounds like you were!

@CarolinaGirl60 Yup. I know exactly how she felt.

Definitely!! I am 99.9% sure I got it from FB, but I think everyone needs to see it.

I am so sorry for your loss.

@HippieChick58 thank you.

I'm very sorry...it's good that you were there. She must've known it and it must've helped.

I have told my kids that if I can't do what I want to do when I want to do it, that is not the definition of life I want to live by. I don't want to waste my money on tubes and treatments. It I decline that far just pull the damn plug and let me go. Spend the money on the living, send the babies or college or trade school.

I feel the same. This past two years, when I was so sick, I had a talk with my daughter and my doctor on that topic. I’ve performed CPR. It’s brutal. I don’t want it, no shocks, no intubation. Let me go, make sure I’m not in pain.