I'm sorry, but I doubt many people, except atheists themselves, can see much real difference between the two definitions.
To claim God doesn't exist is in most people's eyes the same thing as not having a belief in God.
Unless you go the extra distance and also say you do not have a belief in the nonexistence of God either (which is agnosticism), then they are identical positions.
I know it's an old debate, but the debate only exists because it's a legitimate point.
And it's my point as well. Atheists DO claim God doesn't exist. They do it on here ALL THE TIME.
And then to turn around and say there's any real difference between that and not having a belief in God is pure solipsism, unless you go the rest of the way into agnosticism.
You simply cannot have it both ways.

@Storm1752 "I doubt many people, except atheists themselves, can see much real difference between the two definitions." That was my point. I suggest, however, that much of the debate exists because the Christians promote the wrong definition; only rarely does it come from real atheists. Atheists who do claim god doesn't exist usually are referring to the Christian god, and that assertion has the support of science and academic study. Glossing over these differences may its motivations, but it is not a reasoned position.

I agree with you there. It's possible to be "religious" while not believing in the supernatural, though some might call it "spiritual" instead.

If religious means a feeling of connection to our creative source, our environment, and our humanity, then metaphors, symbolism and rituals can surely do that with out any supernatural beliefs. Just more of a poetic understanding and feeling of harmony and balance for making the best of our lives. No church needed for that, but having interactions with like-minded people is nice.

@Julie808
Thanks for the thoughtful comment. Sounds like we are very nearly on the same page here. The distinction I make for myself ( and I don't pretend to know what other people should do ) between spiritual and religious, is the difference between feeling and practice. And of course there is no clear line, but I am happy to refer to the feelings you mentioned, of connection and so on, as spiritual, but I reserve "religious" to refer to deeply transformative practice. An illustrative example would be to say that a spiritual person has an awareness of, and appreciation for, listening to beautiful music, whereas a religious person is earnestly studying to become a concert pianist (regardless of whether they ever reach that goal) .

Agreed. I do not believe in any kind of “magical” thinking, but I do believe we are all one and as such are responsible for the care of each other. I call that morality, not religion, theism, spirituality, or anything else.

@skado I have some personal rituals that I do "religiously" on particular occasions, but not anything I practice on a daily basis really, except just habits that could be thought of as rituals or practices in a stretch of the imagination. For me, it's all about feeling, awareness and gratitude for it all, so more spiritual by your definition.

I feel like I already did all my homework in discovering how I want to view life, so I'm just in the relaxing and enjoying stage, myself. Though once in a while a new thought or question piques my curiosity and I look for the answers in science and nature for clues on how to reconcile.

I'm okay with not knowing all the answers yet and can respect the "awe" of it all, but I also get excited about the quest for getting closer knowing more and support the science of trying to explain the cosmos. (That's why I'm FOR the TMT project here in Hawaii.)

I would consider the astronomers doing the daily exploration of the cosmos to be a spiritual/religious exercise of the highest order into finding the spark of creation unlocking some burning questions regarding our existence and what our purpose seems to be, if any.

Sooo...you don't believe in 'god, but rather "psychological phenomenon?"
How does that bestow peace and understanding?
As an "agnostic deist," I have an opinion but not a "belief." That may not bestow "liberation from emotional suffering," but it does address the issue as directly as rationally, intellectually, and honestly, as I think is humanly possible.
You say your approach is indistinguishable from religion; indeed, you consider yourself "deeply religious?"
Believe me, I respect your right to use words any way you wish, but I also have the right to point out "religion" is defined as "a belief in a supernatural entity."
So considering yourself religious and at the same time state you do not believe in supernatural entities is a contradiction. In other words, it would seem more precisely accurate to just spell out exactly what you really are, instead of obscuring it with a lot of profound-sounding doublespeak.
I am genuinely curious what that might be. It cannot be something virtually identical to religion without being religion, can it? If it can, in what way, exactly?
How is stripping away the mythology from psychological phenomenon, and thereby understanding their deeper meaning, at all like religion? In what way is that "liberating" in the same way belief in God brings peace, if only one based almost entirely on faith?
Sorry, I think we are talking about two completely different things and, while your attempt to equate them by calling them essentially the same thing is an agnostically noble thing,, if it can be put that way, it seems, forgive me, intellectually dishonest,.
I'm sure that was not your intention.

@Storm1752
Yes, I believe Homo sapiens have very complex psychology, and a deep genetic capacity for symbolism and metaphor. And that complex psychology can get pretty tangled up under the pressures of modern society. That’s why the fields of psychology and psychiatry exist - to provide some relief from those tangles. Religious language, as far as I can discern, is just a metaphorical expression of those psychological hazards and their ancient solutions, many of which are obsolete by modern medical standards, but some of which science has yet to explore fully.

But there are many more religious issues than just whether a god exists. That’s the least important question. Finding peace of mind in the here and now is a much more valuable skill, and that has always (the last ten thousand years) been one of religion’s primary functions.

So being intellectually honest is the right place to start, but honesty alone can’t build a fire or skin a deer. It takes skill, and skill requires learning and practice. Psychological health can be learned through practice. It’s that kind of peace and understanding I’m talking about.

@Storm1752
A dictionary's job is simply to report how a word is popularly used, and, if we're lucky, to tell us a minimum of its etymological history. It's not the place to go to obtain a broad philosophical understanding of a subject as complex and as fraught with emotional baggage as religion. Wikipedia correctly points out that "...there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion." [en.wikipedia.org]

I am fully sympathetic with the difficulty in understanding my position because it took me 67 years of near-constant effort to understand it myself. There's no way I can convey that understanding in a few short paragraphs on social media. And while I do enjoy discussing the topic in mutually respectful dialogue, I don't feel any need to change anyone's mind about what they believe, or convince them I'm right, or to defend my intellectual integrity.

A bonafide discussion requires that both parties grant each other the assumption of sincerity, or it's really just a waste of everybody's time.

If you are genuinely interested, I can try to fill in some of the details, but most of it is not original with me. You can also read what Albert Einstein and Baruch Spinoza thought on the subject. Or Joseph Campbell, Paul Tillich, Elaine Pagels, Thomas Merton, Thích Nhất Hạnh, Karen Armstrong, Bart Ehrman, Tenzin Gyatso, and many others.

My what if doubt disappeared with universal math as the god gap (and any god/deity not even specifics) I could see it never became more likely. I don't see it possible for me to 'get my faith back' so to speak but my faith in ideas never disappeared. I like the study of religion and the ancient, I believe in the absoluteness of how what a schizophrenic will feel/see as clearly as we see each other and I think Gods exist in our minds but only that, I think people are curious and will act on that for better or worse. <--- quote from post

@DragonDust We don't know if there is any gods. Faith is not a reliable path to truth.

May or may not, what a load of crap dude. Present evidence or STFU.

@DragonDust Well then, you're saying what I said, or at least didn't contradict it. Your REASONS for your faith (anti-faith, whatever) are your own. I don't share that certainty,, but that's just me
For some reason I DON'T have belief (or non-belief) and while I WISH I knew for sure (boy, do I), I don't.
Some people, like my mother (a devout Catholic recently passed away), DID have faith. We'd have long talks about it over the phone, and nothing she said made any difference.
Nothing atheists say makes any difference, either. I just don't know,. (Though "neo-deism" is interesting, if anybody wants to look it up.)
To me, it's one of those mysteries in life, for which there is no answer. To you, you have your answer. Congratulations. Must be nice. But I don't feel that way, and I don't see how anybody could. To each their own.

@DragonDust, @Mofo1953 Screw you too, "dude," you arrogant ass-wipe.

@Storm1752 i don't post long winded arrogant but cretinous posts like you asshole.

@Mofo1953 I'll post whatever I feel like, "dude." I think through whatever it is, In this case, what the word "agnosticism" means to me. It's important to me to make sense, I do this even though few people read those kind of comments, because for me It takes time and space to build to a conclusion. Do you do the same?
Let's see: "...what a load of crap, dude.." etc., etc.
Hmm, well you certainly get right to the point. No wishy-washy "crap" for you!
BUT, sorry, "dude," you didn't convince me.. Maybe next time.

@Storm1752 nobody is stopping you from posting your imbecilic posts, go ahead continue making sure everyone here know you're a fucking asshole, and nobody is trying to convince you of anything, you better go back to kindergarten and learn to properly understand what your puny mind reads, although that might be an impossible task due to the obvious lack of a thinking mind, oh well, up to you. Now fuck off and try to be less of a moron, oops another impossible task.

@Mofo1953 You must have been abused as a child.

@Storm1752 projecting?

@Storm1752 my faith in ideas never disappeared. I don't consider much as absolute. I don't have an anti faith just no faith in deities or religion or spiritual in a literal sense. I'm curious about what surrounds it. Why are flood stories common, red is the first colour named by pretty much every group of humans, basis of beliefs. It doesn't mean I dislike people who come to different conclusions. I'm not religious. I know that ideas may prove true false or somewhere in-between, but I am curious about all the hypothesises.

@DragonDust Great comment. Thanks.
The only people I wish we could outlaw are people who try to impose their beliefs on others, and I worry those religio-fascists will be doing exactly that very soon, unless something very much like a "miracle" occurs.

Blind crazy love is the best reason for explaining atheists returning to a position of faith. Notice I said "returning." There are a few declared atheists who never knew what the religious thing was about to start with.

@DenoPenno

Correct. There are atheists on this site who think not doing church or just renouncing God is being an atheist. They celebrate and follow all other beliefs, occasions, holidays, related gift giving and other traditions associated with religion. They are 'designer atheist'... "custom made" for themselves. We laugh at the religious while not realizing how deep we are into religious customs. To me, being an atheist means walking away from everything religious. You cannot pick and choose.

I agree with you about people joining churches, despite a lack of belief, just to have community, somewhere to belong, and to be loved unconditionally by others. How else do you explain Unitarian churches, where there is no theistic belief, at least among the vast majority of its members? They join for the reasons above, as well as intellectual stimulation and somewhere to get some form of religious education for their kids. Another reason people who don't believe in religion join churches is the extreme social pressure, esp. in the South and Midwest, to join one or else face suspicion and ostracizism for being abberrant, odd or whatever....

Yes. I enjoyed, for the most part, visiting the Unitarian Society. But, even that depended on the "minister's" ability to hold one's interest during their talks. Some were more entertaining than others.

Agnostics neither believe nor disbelieve, which apparently means you look at many agnostics with scorn and heap ridicule upon them, am I right? Agnostics don't "believe in" (OR disbelieve in) an afterlife or spirituality (as it's commonly defined), which pisses you off because you fervently believe with all your heart such things are definitely, absolutely false. Right? So for you atheism is as much of "belief system" as theism is a "belief system" for believers. So, the equivalent of a religion, only it's opposite. Seems clear to me.

@Storm1752 i only look at imbeciles like you with scorn and disdain.

No shit, Sherlock. So because you don't understand something, then it is ok to doubt? What a load of crap.

@Mofo1953, in this case, maybe I should have said as well that, although we may not understand, we have to respect anyway. It's not a question of doubting or not, it's a question of accepting. Not only that but I strongly believe that everybody's freedom ends where the other one's begins. The person in question has the right to move from atheism to religion. You may not like it or understand but it's within the personal freedom of choice right.

@Paddypereira fuck respect!

@Mofo1953 ,you don't want to respect so don't expect to be respected.

@Paddypereira oh, wow, now that brilliant reasoning has motivated me to say, very respectfully of course, that I don't give a fuck what you or any of the religious nutcases think or say. Happy?

@Mofo1953, no problem with that. Whatever works for you. I would let the person in question do whatever it works for him/her and respect. After all, the consequences are for him/her so...

@Mofo1953 I don't doubt, "dude," I have an opinion, and if you don't like it, stick it up your butt.
You know, it's funny, this site is called, "AGNOSTICS.com, and yet some jerk-offs think it's Atheists.com, and mock and insult the agnostics here.
And I get sick of their smug conceit, like they're smarter, or more courageous, than everybody else. I know the minuses of theism AND atheism, and I resent all the condescending that goes on
Their unholier-than-thou attitude is in some ways worse than that of theists, because at least THEY aren''t so grim and negative about life.
But nothing will change and that's okay.

@Storm1752 and I should give a fuck about your asinine opinion because?

@Mofo1953 Not any more than I care about yours. Our right to disagree is enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Even the right to call each insulting names.
Makes me proud to be an American.

@Storm1752 great, fuck off then.

Are you serious? Religion is defined as a belief in a supernatural entity
So is theism.
Theism isn't a belief you are god, never mind KNOWING you are.
I just can't believe some people.

@Storm1752 if you are atheist. it makes sense you do not believe in people existing.

Your definition that you use from only the last 100 years of atheism is obviously different from the 2000 year old definition of religion. Yes, words can have different definitions. I am obviously not using the more modern invention of definition.

@Storm1752 The thing you call religion, is more appropriately called a Theocracy, it is a type of government. Why call theocracy a religion?

Richard Dawkins renamed the biological nature of Jesus to meme organism. Jesus was called a style of god. Meme organism is a style of god. Just because you change the name of something does not mean you change what it is. Meme organism exist, atheism illogical.

A meme by any other name is still a meme.

@Storm1752 it is like saying "human does not exist because you are homo sapian ".