"minimum wage should be tied to the cost of living in the area, the worker's age, and number of dependents"? Really? You think this is how a minimum wage rate is determined Australia and Europe etc.

You should be able to "eke" out a living?

This is right wing paternalistic capitalism. A sort of Henry Ford philosophy of allowing the plebs just enough to get by while ruthlessly exploiting them.

Your epiphany is hardly more than a reluctant admission that unless things change a little superficially the plebs might rise up and kill you.

Lifelong believers in Democratic Socialism like myself look for something more fundamentally equitable than this I assure you.

@David1955

You have obviously misunderstood everything I have written. Do you always tend to take the worst possible view of everything?

You also seem to be out of touch with economic and financial reality. The burger flipper and broom pusher can't all make $100,000 a year with stellar benefits. Prices would be ridiculous, and $100,000 a year would be about as good as $20,000 a year.

Further, if I could make just as much money flipping burgers or pushing a mop as I could being a doctor, an engineer, or a physicist, then why go through all the trouble to undertake the necessary effort and expense to pursue those careers? Why go through an apprentice and journeyman program to be a skilled laborer if I can just drop out of high school, flip burgers, and make the same coin?

What is so wrong with paying unskilled, menial labor that is massively abundant $15 to $20 an hour? It's enough to live on (certainly better than $8 an hour), but won't provide disincentive to pursue more skilled careers that take time, effort, and money to achieve.

And for the record, I'm a "pleb", too. I'm an employee, not an owner. I don't get distributions from profits, I get a salary and, if things go well, a bonus. I am comfortable, but not rich, and certainly not a millionaire capitalist that you so blindly despise. I also went to school for 8 years and took on quite a bit of debt. And there aren't too many people with my skill set out there, like there are the millions of people who can fill unskilled labor jobs on the drop of a dime with little to no training or education.

@Piratefish I merely quoted your definition of determining the minimum wage, which was not credible, frankly. Nor am I immune to the realities of economics. But increasing the minimum hourly rate is not the solution to the massive inequality that increasingly exists. Also, labour market issues are far more complex, including overskilled taking under skilled jobs. You probably consider yourself to be progressive in thinking. But what is needed is not just tinkering but a complete realignment of income, taxation and services structures to deal with the rampant polarisation in wealth that several decades of right wing economics has intentionally created, and these solutions will come from the left, never from the right of politics.

@David1955

You're am idealist. In a capitalist system, what you want will never happen. Ever. The best one can hope for is a minimum wage that guarantees all workers can afford live.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of Americans, even many of the poor, support the very system of values and law that creates such inequality. In that sort of environment, where everyone sees himself as a temporarily embarrassed millionaire, the best that can be done is provide a living (or minimum) wage for the grossly over abundant supply of unskilled labor. (This massive supply of cheap and unskilled labor is exacerbated by the global markets - why pay some entitled American high school drop out $23 an hour to make widgets on an assembly line when there are hundreds of millions of Mexican, South American, Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, and other Asian workers willing to do it for pennies on the dollar?)

Put yourself into the shoes of one of these owners you despise so much: what would you do? Especially when there is pressure from the board and other shareholders to remain competitive and increase (or at least maintain) margins? And imagine risking everything and working your ass off to gain a few million in profit just to watch the government snatch up a huge portion of it and waste it on the kinds of stupid bullshit they do. My bet is that you would be seeing things very, very differently. And your view wouldn't include spreading even more of your profit to a bunch of unskilled labor who took zero risks and do little more than flip burgers, push mops, or pack boxes. The closest I have ever seen to that was the original Ben & Jerry's, and that didn't last very long.

So, I don't know what color the sky is in your world, but in the real one in which we all live, a system like I described is about as good as one can hope for for the millions of unskilled/underemployed Americans in an increasingly competitive global economy. Costco uses a similar model to the one I described, and the overwhelming majority of their workers seem pretty happy.

And while we're on the subject, I absolutely agree that the greed created by our capitalist system needs to be better checked. I have just as much a problem as the next guy with the Walton's, Bezos, Gates, the Kochs, and especially guys like John Paulson, Ray Dalio, James Simons, and David Tepper. Not to mention the Ken Lays amd David Duncans of the world.

So relax, calm down, and quit viewing everyone who is more successful than you as the enemy. All the evidence points to the likelihood that, given their situation, you would be EXACTLY like them. It's not their fault you aren't a millionaire, too.

@Piratefish some interesting points in your reply, apart from the last paragraph, which was presumptious, patronising and condescending, also plain wrong. Who the hell do you think you are talking to? Some half wit college lefty? A typical right wing false assumption is that the belief in greater equality stems from envy and failure. I wear idealism as a badge of honour. Good day.

@David1955

Well someone is certainly full of himself. Happy much?

@David1955 you make many points that resonate with me. The loss of power of trade unions in our country is frightening. The wealth divide sickens me. There is no need for homelessness and starvation with fairer distribution.

@MsDemeanour thank you. I'm afraid @Piratefish is on another wavelength however.

Good response/summation. True communism really has never existed. The Russian, Chinese and Cuban systems really just replaced individual business/government control with control by the ruling party. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." We've never had wide-spread group ownership/participation on this planet, but a socialist economic system under a democracy probably comes close. We only have to look to Scandinavia for the model. (But worker-owned enterprises still might be the way for the US to get there.)

Nope

I think the injection of race into the subject is a red herring. Interview successful black businessmen and professionals (except for possibly celebrities), and I think you will find their views aren't much different either. Same applies to women. Attack the underlying values, not the gender or race of the people who happen to be at the top. At least where I am concerned, you will gain more support and credibility.

Fair point

Not surprising