Voted live and let live, but I need to provide a qualifier here. It is apparent that religion is doing a fine job of killing itself off without our help, hence the let live element. However, let live does not include acquiescing when they (the religions) attempt to gain political power, or control of any kind over social endeavor. In this regard they are to be actively resisted at every turn.
Additional note: We should seek legislation barring religions from running indoctrination programs for children. That is to say, nothing in the form of religion run elementary and secondary schools. Advanced college level education is fine. What the children learn from their parents and whatever services/rites they attend is fine, but it should not extend beyond that. Further, all religious institutions should be subject to the same tax burdens as any business except for activities demonstrably used for the assistance of the poor, the ill, and refugees. Such outreaches should also not be allowed to push their religious agendas on the people they aid. They've used this avenue for the purpose of recruitment far too long.
A sound and well reasoned response, in my opinion. I consider that education should be entirely factual; religious belief is a personal choice and has no place in the classroom, except perhaps for its historical perspective. Additionally, I believe that all charities and churches should be taxed on income/donations not directly used for charitable distribution; what they spend on themselves- taxable.
I voted #1 but would change it a little. There is no need to limit the furthering of equality, diversity and love of knowledge to within the movement. To pursue this with all people, because these are good causes in general and without presenting it as an agenda of Atheists, would work towards undermining the hideous underpinnings of organized religion.
I agree!
Multiple beliefs existing peacefully?
When has that EVER happened? It never has, it never will - religion is fundamentally devisive, fundamentally judgememtal, and fundamentally harmful.
That's why a baker went to court for the right to discriminate!
The only time different beliefs remain at peace is when something else is happening that makes those people forget their faiths.
Sporting events are about SPORT, not about faith.
Elections are about POLITICS, not about faith.
But the moment faith becomes 'the issue' that changes.
@Matias Look at the reformation period in Europe. I lived in Heidelberg Germany, 15 years. In 1690's the French Catholics (led by a German) laid siege to the city and flattened it including the house I lived. I have a degree in European History (in reality religious history). There was never peace between different religions. They always broke into warfare. Read some books about Galleys and the wars they fought in! Read about taking enemy soldiers (from another religion), flaying the skin off of them and stuffing them into canons and firing the bodies to the opposing troops as a warning!!! This is what religion can and has done.
And yet one of the fundamental concepts of religion is that it is 'faith equates to virtue' - and a direct corrolary of this is that LACK of (the correct) faith equates to lack of virtue.
One of the principle foundations of religion is 'they' (those who do not believe) are inferior to us (who do).
Admittedly there are OTHER sources of division among people - race, culture, social status, and so on - but religion is most certainly such a divisive ellement.
Then you have the secondary concept of 'religious morallity' where those of faith judge and condemn others for not meeting the moral standards dictated by their own faith - christians encamping themselves outside abortion clinics, for example, to intimidate those who use them. Or declaring homosexuals unacceptable because of the words in their holy book.
Again, not all people who judge and condemn are religious, but you cannot claim there is no religious judgement or bigotry/persecution.
Where there is religion there is a source of division, a source (and justification) of judgement. One of the cornerstones of religion is 'we' (the believers) are moral and virtuous while 'they' (those who don't believe) are not - that 'we' have the divine right to judge 'them' and dictate how they should live their lives.
Religion does, I fear, encourage and justify bigottry, intollerance and judgementalism in society - divisive characteristics that cause harm to society and result in aggression and violence.
So don't try and tell me that the different faiths in the Roman empire lived in peace. They didn't. There was religion-induced aggression, intollerance and violence in ancient Rome, just as there has been in every other society where different religions saw each other as 'those who don't worship the true and proper god'.
Religion doesn't have to mean large scale war to be divisive - though religion has certainly caused that during history - a thousand lesser conflicts is still a lack of peace between faiths.
I hope that I can ‘be’ the change...energy is precious and I want to spend mine, standing up when necessary and allow others the freedom to live what they believe...unless they are deliberately hurting someone else!
Do no harm. I would not have put up with anyone telling me what to believe, I had to come to my conclusions on my own. Agnostic/Atheist is not a movement, it is letting go of fantasy and opening my eyes to reality. I don't follow anyone's rules or mandates and I sure as the sun rises will not pledge loyalty to a movement.
Religion will always adapt as the last hundred years have shown, there have been many concessions made to accommodate societal changes to keep their followers.
When someone has questions then I will do my best to answer honestly, otherwise I will not force anyone to change their beliefs.
I couldn't have said it better
One of the extremist religionist beliefs is that they have the truth and they must determine what others believe. We may not change this but we must maintain our rights to believe what we will and must be prepared to fight to do so.
I'll fight for the right to not have a religion/belief system forced on me but I will not force mine on anyone.
Thank you, kind sir.
@Betty its true so thank you x
And what if their belief includes pushing their dogma on others? What if their belief includes discrimination toward others as gays, transgenders, atheists, minority groups and generally people who don't think as they? What if their belief is about arming as many people as possible? In this country and even in Canada one has the right to believe what one wants but one does not have the right to push their beliefs on others. It's not about us telling others what to do but standing up to those who try to bully others. I don't think Canada understands what is going on here between tRump and the Christian right (wrong). We are in serious danger of losing our religious freedoms.
In my opinion, religion and politics are about power and control that serves greed. To stand up and fight against oppression is a worthy endeavor and we should demand of our politicians that they listen. The problem as I see it is, if we can't give the politicians something they want to replace their alliance with religion then we have a losing battle.
@Betty So the solution is to give up! The politicians need us as much as we need them. Policies have been changed with push back from the voters. In the end it is about access to resources. The supply is limited but the demand keeps on climbing. The religionists and other groups want to gain as much of these resources as they can. They are willing to fight, torture and kill for what they want. There has been more than ample proof throughout all of history. tRump is already giving you guys more and more a reason to fight the oppressors (US government backed up by the right (wrong) wing religionists).
Policies will not change until people get involved. An individual can make demands but will not be heard. There are fractures in society, too many special interest groups with no unity among them. With so many agendas and power plays just getting organized would be a monumental task.
I mostly agree but with some caveats. Often people escape religion with the help from others. I left but remained opened to some of it's ideas. my late partner, a lifelong atheist from Iran opened my eyes (and I did hers in regards to being a vegetarian).
Yes, there are special interest groups the the focus word is "special". Some groups especially the environmental and, yes even the secular ones I see as "general" interest. They apply to all which includes non-humans. It is these groups that need to be identified and supported.
I agree with what you say. The people who escape religion are ready to escape and help then is appreciated and needed. It is not possible to convince someone to listen when they do not want to hear.
Special interest groups should be pooling their resources to focus their message. With so many special interest groups shouting for attention, it is too easy for politicians to pick and choose who they would like to affiliate themselves with. The groups could share their resources and with a more cohesive message that would force politicians to pay attention and provide reasonable solutions instead of using a particular group to further their own agenda.
Eg. Equal rights; Black Lives Matter; Pay equity for women; Me Too; Gun Control; Mental Health; Planned Parenthood; and LBGTQ. They all overlap and could work together as one large special interest group and be more effective and a benefit to the general public.
@Betty Yes, I understand. However, I maintain some groups as the Nature Conservancy, Family Planning groups or any organization whose end goal is protecting and preserving the life support system under which all life exists is not a special interest group but a general interest group. Why are all groups lumped under the heading "special" interest?
They lobby the government for funding for specific needs of their group. Too many small groups that make it easier for government to dismiss them. It should be one big group for the preservation of life that address all the issues. The government would find it very difficult to ignore.
@Betty I partly agree. Strength can be found in like-minded groups joining forces. Some like FFRF and the Humanists are together on some issue but they have different missions and so are separate. Kind of like General Motors and the military.
I don't really feel that I am part of any movement, I am just myself along with friends and people who are not concerned with gods. I don't know where the 'movement' is moving and I don't want to be part of a club or even outside a club that doesn't want me as I am. I have been godless all my life -no big deal in fact no deal at all - so its a non starter for me to imagine being in a group that fights when I can live quite peacefully with anyone who needs a god.
You live in a fairly tolerant country. Here, the fanatic religionists are slowly taking over. This is not Europe.
It has become a war and the extremist religionists have created it. Their rabid attempt to take over the country needs to be forcibly fought and many are willing to risk their lives for this.
My late partner was an atheist from the day she could reason. She thought religion was silly and couldn't understand why people followed this nonsense. She immigrated here from Iran in 1977 and 2 years later the revolution hit and religion took over and she saw what religion can do to a country. She said moving to the US saved her life because if she had stayed and with her mouth she would either be dead or in jail. Now it is our turn to fight. Here is another Iranian woman who feels the same as my partner. She spoke at the last FFRF convention in Madison, WI. This is starting to happen here. [maryamnamazie.com] What is happening in this country today is only a preview of what will happen if we don't stand up to the religious bullies.
YES! Whenever you have the fundies coming out from under their bibbles to wage war against non-believers, you have potential for another one of their ''holy wars.'' (This gains heavenly brownie points for them....and kills millions of innocent non-believers.) I sincerely believe it's what's behind their efforts to kick up dust in the middle=east.
@LucyLoohoo I heard a report that many Christian churches have taken up donations to help Jews resettle in Israel. This is to foment a war with the native Palestinians to fulfill prophesy to bring on the end times!!!
@JackPedigo And, I believe that, Jack! All this terrorism from fundamental Muslims merely adds fuel to those fires...possibly deliberately, since Muslims, too, are very familiar with religious wars. Die in that battle and you have the EXPRESS BUS to paradise. (Not to mention the virgins.)
Wow, powerful post, thanks so much. Grateful for people like you and your former partner.
@LucyLoohoo I made a posting some time ago that showed the waiting virgins were armed Catholic nuns.
Religions are divisive and dangerous and we need to keep challenging it. It worries me that the religious don't worry about the future of our planet because "it is the end times and Jesus is returning so I can keep polluting all I like".
I think it is important that people keep making the points that a) the biblical God was not a nice guy, b) given the state of the world, no god could be all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving, it becomes a contradiction in terms, c) seeing all the world's mythologies, why would the judeo-christian myth turn out to be true, d) in modern terms ancient prophets would seem to be suffering from mental health disorders.
We need people to champion the atheist cause, the right to not believe in a religion that makes no sense to you.
An overwhelming number of people make life decisions based on emotion....on how they feel...rather than on facts, evidence, and logic. IMO religion brainwashes people to accept life decisions on emotion......accept it on faith....
We are headed for disaster unless people start using their brain and thinking, and evaluating evidence to make crucial decisions.
I so agree. I'm hoping the revolution in neuroscience and evolutionary psychology will trickle down to many So far this does seem to be happening, albeit slowly.
Thanks for agreeing with me....@IrishGypsy
I must admit that I never really thought of atheism as a sort counter-congregation to the religious ones. Part of the enjoyment of being a freethinker came from this very freedom not to compress my thoughts through any filter. I see a religion free platform as a sort of mental safe zone for those who escaped from their religious concentration camps.
Perhaps the best compromise would be a religious particle collider surrounded by an antitheist field.
Yes I do agree that Hitch had his faults, but I did, and still do admire his speaking out against religion. Sorry that he died, he was an insperation to the Atheist movement. I was never a believer in god or gods, but it was people like Hitch, Dawkins and other Atheists that showed the true nature of just how toxic religion really is. For me though, it's not a matter of just not believing in a god. I like those who promote Science and math, engeneering, biology, etc. rather than religion, Like Richard Dawkins, Neil DeGrass Tyson, Lawence Krauss and such. Thanks to places like Youtube, Their words spread far and wide to people that didn't know any better than what their preacer told them. Hitch was one of those that paved the way for others to be out spoken about religion, and I will always thank him for that.
Though voting support for the second statement, I strongly disagree with the notion that a 'movement' is either desirable or necessary as the means of thwarting theological fanaticism. Theologies are themselves movements within which people are organized by self-appointed, self-aggrandizing males issuing theologically based 'marching orders'.
Rejection of gods and presumptuous men claiming to represent them is an individual choice. What theological and political manipulators (in the forms of movements) fear most isn't as much rejection as the assertion of individuality at it's root. They are in fact rather comfortable with sheep rejecting one herd and choosing another as a given; as a matter of competition that in no way jeopardizes the herd system.
Among atheists, since it is merely rejection of gods, many different reason based notions about our reality can thrive and find common agreements among others with no necessity whatsoever of becoming movements. Some of us might sense or reason as individuals a life energy or even intentionality beyond our grasp. Others might reject those notions. Some fellow atheists also consider ghosts and planetary influences to be possible. Many other ideas abound within the category of those who share only personal rejection of gods.
Movement phenomena, if you reflect on them, always have one or more promoters; usually claiming some form of superior knowledge or sagacity with which they deign to license themselves as your 'betters'. It is seduction with sweet sounding ideas around which to rally into a movement that always empowers leaderships and almost always enriches them. The first order of business in any movement is establishing doctrinal (substitute ideological if you will) boundaries within which constituents must volunteer to confine themselves.
It is, for me, one of the most disturbing trends among other atheists to see self-appointed gurus of alleged science attempting to define who is and is not a real Atheist. Science can be as slippery a basis at times as theology for founding movements, if for no other reason, because these elitist definers of what is and isn't don't stop at defining you. As leaders, they also consider themselves to be arbiters of questions about what is or isn't real science.
It is really about establishment of orthodoxies by those who are uncomfortable with too much individuality; too much wrongheadedness, as they see it, displayed by lower forms. Curiously, or maybe not so, these priggish colonizers of your intellectual independence are almost always male.
I must admit that I never really thought of atheism as a sort counter-congregation to the religious ones. Part of the enjoyment of being a freethinker came from this very freedom not to compress my thoughts through any filter. I see a religion free platform as a sort of mental safe zone for those who escaped from their religious concentration camps.
Perhaps the best compromise would be a religious particle collider surrounded by an antitheist field.
Atheism is definitional, not organizational or ideological. It's not a "movement". It's a bunch of individuals whose only thing in common is not believing in even one deity. Full stop. End of story.
But quite apart from atheism, we can and should create a world where people are entitled to their own beliefs (though not to their own facts). I would say that's something everyone, atheist or not, can agree on in principle. Except maybe fundamentalists, who are chronically obsessed with their own rightness and everyone else's wrongness.
I think we are entitled to our own beliefs. What is urgently needed are the platform where people can express them.
Atheism isn’t a movement, it’s a personal choice.
Unfortunately, we have been forced to become a movement. A movement of self-preservation.
i am not part of an atheist movement. i want a world (good luck to me!) where people are logical (that eliminates religion to a large extent, though people CAN compartmentalize; the trouble is, fewer and fewer people do) and kind. i prefer something like the freedom from religion foundation, which concentrates not on turning other people into atheists, but on making sure we have equal right, to a crusade to eliminate religion. maybe some day all religion will be seen as an historical phenomenon about which much literature exists not to convert or convince but to examine, socially, and to entertain, much as greek mythology serves us now.
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