How can we as a nation accuse Russia, China and numerous other countries of being an aggresser? We have been the most aggressive country since the last century. Can anyone explain this to me?
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.merca' can do no wrong. Confirmation bias.
jlynn37
Level 8
July 17, 2018
3
"American exceptionalism." 
@dare2dream We are exceptional alright but not for what 'mercan's think we are.
@jlynn37
Ah yes. I remember those heady days of implementing the "pacification" program in Vietnam. Indeed, "America at its finest."
@bigpawbullets my grandfather fought in WW2 as an advance scout for the 82nd and was a convoy Captain in Korea.
His ENTIRE opinion and stance on the Vietnam debacle: we went to Vietnam to teach the French how to fight and got our asses kicked.
(Granted, he also insists JFK was killed, in part, because his father made deals with the mob to help him get elected, which he (JFK) then refused to honor. The other part was lack of ability to effectively command our military forces and so the system...corrected itself...so...maybe he was just being a cranky old man or maybe not lol)
So many things were handled so poorly during Vietnam at every stage and level.
Right? Everyone screaming about our democracy being hacked like we didn't spend the ENTIRE cold war overthrowing democratically elected governments in Mesoamerica, South America, the Middle East, Asia...we INVENTED democratic subversion and espionage in its modern form.
A lot of people don't like realizing or acknowledging they've been the bad guy, they just resent when other people do it to them.
Auto/ego-centrism and abusive narcissism models on a cultural scale? We also used to think God wanted us to expand to the Pacific, that black people were farm animals, that Native populations should be lied to, systematically eradicated, or forcibly assimilated and gay people should be locked in asylums and undergo cruel, brutal, inhumane treatments to 'normalize' them.
Our cultural history is very ugly.
geist171
Level 6
July 17, 2018
2
Just say you voted for trump and leave.
GipsyOfNewSpain
Level 9
July 17, 2018
2
Two wrongs don't make any thing right. An important aphorism to keep attached to the previous one is: all that is needed for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing. My point being that regardless of how far we've fallen from our own idealistic standard for behavior, that doesn't excuse us from the need to call out bad acts and actors when we identify them.
While I think it's very telling that the US has been involved in wars and military engagements for 92% of its existence, and that we spend more on our military than the next 12 largest military spenders in the world combined, I do think that it is important that we do something to dissuade other nations from following the path of "might makes right".
We need to pick ourselves back up, stop engaging in wars without declaring war (the last time the US declared war was in 1942 - Austria-Hungary), and really take a close look at what we're doing any why.
We've sold ourselves (as a nation) on the story that we're a force for good, but how long has it really been since that was true? Many of the South American nations despise us because of our covert actions to destabilize their government (even the democratic ones), usually because there's some sort of profit motive involved for one or more of our large corporations. Our State department got involved to prevent Haiti from instituting a minimum wage over $.21/hour, at the behest of Hanes, Levis, and Fruit of the Loom. That the biggest real reason we invaded Iraq was to plunder their oil only has the barest pretense of and excuse draped over it - much of what we've done there qualifies as war crimes.
There does need to be a force in the world to moderate the ambitions of Russia and China, but until we get our affairs in order and root out the Business Plot's successful second attempt from our government, we'll be doing it all on our own - since we are rapidly losing the respect and trust of all of our allies, and that is happening independent of Trump stabbing them in the back.
chilehead9
Level 7
July 17, 2018
2
Just because the US has been aggressive doesn't mean we can't call out those who are aggressive against the US. Calling out our enemies is good PR to distract from the crimes of the US.
You infer that being an aggressor undercuts the moral authority of US to complain against others. Would a Black man who had been abused by police lose his right to complain about the police if it was later revealed that he was a thief? Only in the mind of a racist. A racist would rationalize that street justice meted out by dirty cops was a good thing. And yes, someone who believed that the US had become irredeemably corrupt may well see US complaints against Russia and China as the height of hypocrisy.
It comes down to whether one still has any loyalty to the US. Certainly there are many noble principles the US claims to revere and respect. One may still revere those principles, and point to them when they are disrespected, whether by internal or external agents. Trump is called out when he disparages the media, and the proposition of a free press and free speech is pointed to as the guiding principle. The principle of 'Free Elections' is pointed to both in reference to Russian meddling and to partisan (GOP) gerrymandering.
So the answer is in your question "...we as a nation...". Who is that "we" anymore, given the bipartisan acceptance of naked corruption?
The founders of the US were good, very good; so good we haven't seen their like in our lifetime. And yet, they failed miserably. They missed what Spiderman learned, that with great power comes great responsibility. Nothing in the Constitution game plan addressed the need to constantly and relentlessly enforce that principle. And so now, it's just a meme for a comic book hero, not a revered principle. Indeed, our culture reveres those who can make a fortune even when it comes from stiffing others, as long as you got away with it. You have to look to #metoo to find a hint of opposition. Bottom line: garbage in, garbage out, garbage in (severely flawed constitution), garbage out (Trump and the evangelists who support him).
racocn8
Level 9
July 17, 2018
2
All countries assume that they are wonderful. One of the first definitions of nationalism is that my country has done no wrong and other countries wrong my country. This manufactured ideology emerged out of the French Revolution and spread globally over time. Russia has often been aggressive as has China, but the US has too. They all built empires through force, intimidation, economic power, soft power.
Skeptic66
Level 7
July 17, 2018
1
Watch the movie.... "Wag The Dog".
And, I totally agree with your assessment of our aggressive tendencies.
bigpawbullets
Level 9
July 17, 2018
1
Well I suppose that having a country that has the largest military complex in the world and most of it combined you need an enemy.
When I grew up it was the Russian's. After I met some real ones, I thought to myself "Really?" They were just people like me.
MartinG
Level 6
July 18, 2018
0
If the world collapses into the calamity of universal false moral equivalence, as suggested here, then we are indeed truly screwed.
And BTW, I live in a country which, had it not been for US support in WW2, would have been invaded by Japan. If we are going to criticize the US, let's look at both sides of the history ledger.
David1955
Level 8
July 17, 2018
1
In Russia’s case, it is about dissuading them from other military actions in Europe. After their annexation of Crimea, we should make it clear there will be a severe response to future incursions. A peaceful Europe is essential to the national security of the US plus it is important to our economy.
TonyMacaroni
Level 6
July 17, 2018
1
So they get away with Crimea? Echos of the Nazis, no one did anything then either.
@MacTavish Not only did they get away with invading the Crimea, but they got away with invading Eastern Ukraine under the old Nazi guise of "protecting them against abuse". It is no wonder that Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia are all nervous inasmuch as they have significant ethnic Russian populations left over from when the Soviet Union encouraged Russians to move there during the Soviet era.
@MacTavish Not true. The economic sanctions have had a crippling effect. Their currency lost half its value. That is a helluva price to pay for a small piece of land. The Nazi comparison is also not relevant for the simple fact that France and Great Britain were pretty much powerless to stop the Nazi war machine in Europe. The Russians wouldn’t stand a chance if involved in a military conflict with the United States.
@TonyMacaroni Never underestimate your enemy. Britain and France could not and did not stop Russia now from taking Crimea. Sanctions will be lifted in time, so their effect is minuscule in the long term. Sanctions haven't done shit against N. Korea.
We stayed out of Europe's wars for so long. We went into WWI and WWII kicking and screaming then everything changed. I'm not condoning anything, but everyone goes after number one, which the US has been since the war. It's the nature of geopolitics. Could all stakeholders have made better decisions so that there weren't as many innocents killed? Absolutely.
dokala
Level 7
July 17, 2018
0
To be fair historically the United States has been just as or more than aggressive than those other countries however, during most of that time we were working to protect the people of other countries from their own governments' or nearby countries. Those other countries named were working to oppress people as their primary agenda for most of the last century. In more modern history such as the last 2 or 3 decades America has strayed from its values for many of its engagements.
Spreading Democracy used to be more than an internet punch line but people don't seem to remember that anymore.
mattersauce
Level 7
July 17, 2018
0
I've always been confused as to whether we were spreading Democracy or combating the spread of Soviet/Chinese communism, which are totalitarian or fascist representations of the communist model, which is a conflicting counterpart of capitalism. I would argue that in its theoretical form communism does not argue against democracy, its rhetoric is democratic in nature. But its practical form, as used by the Soviets and Chinese, operates on contrary line to both free market trade AND democratic government.
America has historically, for the most part, been active in regime change to the benefit of big oil or other corporate interests. These lyrics from the Vietnam war days kinda sums up what was, and continues to be.
American Woman
The Guess Who
American woman gonna mess your mind
American woman, she gonna mess your mind
American woman gonna mess your mind
American woman gonna mess your mind
Say A,
Say M,
Say E,
Say R,
Say I,
Say C,
Say A,
Say N,
American woman gonna mess your mind
American woman gonna mess your mind
American woman gonna mess your mind
American woman, stay away from me
American woman, mama let me be
Don’t come hangin’ around my door
I don’t wanna see your face no more
I got more important things to do
Than spend my time growin’ old with you
Now woman, I said stay away,
American woman, listen what I say.
American woman, get away from me
American woman, mama let me be
Don’t come knockin’ around my door
Don’t wanna see your shadow no more
Coloured lights can hypnotize
Sparkle someone else’s eyes
Now woman, I said get away
American woman, listen what I say.
American woman, said get away
American woman, listen what I say
Don’t come hangin’ around my door
Don’t wanna see your face no more
I don’t need your war machines
I don’t need your ghetto scenes
Coloured lights can hypnotize
Sparkle someone else’s eyes
Now woman, get away from me
American woman, mama let me be.
Go, gotta get away, gotta get away
Now go go go
Gonna leave you, woman
Gonna leave you, woman
Bye-bye
Bye-bye
Bye-bye
Bye-bye
You’re no good for me
I’m no good for you
Gonna look you right in the eye.
Tell you what I’m gonna do
You know I’m gonna leave
You know I’m gonna go
You know I’m gonna leave
You know I’m gonna go, woman
I’m gonna leave, woman
Goodbye, American woman
Goodbye, American chick
Goodbye, American broad ...
Songwriters: Burton Cummings / Gary Peterson / Michael Kale / Randy Bachman
American Woman lyrics © BMG Rights Management US, LLC
@powder I occasionally have some issue with the distinction between fascism and other totalitarian/unilaterally-beneficial governmental models. In WW2 The Italians were fascist (?) The nazis were...fascism posing as nationalist socialism...the Stalinist regime was...totalitarianism masquerading as post-Leninist (post-Bolshevik, still Bolshevik?) communism?
@dahermit Trump was elected democratically, is he a great leader that shouldn't be removed from office? Democracy doesn't defend poor process such as a financially motivated election system. Some countries that practice democracy but it doesn't mean they're good at it or have methods in place for correcting mistakes.
@mattersauce Is it our place to decide which countries are "good at it or have methods in place for correcting mistakes."?
@dahermit If we don't do it that means nobody does. Would that be better just because we're not perfect? WWII we stayed out of for a while, should we have continued? South Korea was going to be slaughtered, it wasn't because of our intervention. Even in the Middle East a lot of lives were saved during Desert Storm.
You can definitely bring up a lot of other poor choices that we've made and lives we've taken in our righteous indignant fury. Our leaders are far from perfect and you can make a case that they've degraded over time and we're at a low point, but that doesn't negate the good that we've done.
We're the police of the world because we can be, and that's the only reason. The world has become a better place over time and the US had a lot to do with that. We are absolutely a problem right now and have made some poor decisions.
If it was my call, I'd pull the leash back and get our DoD more in line with our values over our financial interests before allowing anymore engagements, but I wouldn't pull the plug entirely. The world can be a horrible place and a lot of leaders have ruled with iron fists destroying a lot of lives in the process, and the US has halted some of that.
I won't claim that we're perfect, but other countries either can't do anything, won't do anything, or are the problem while the US is literally the only country who doesn't fall into any of those categories. With civil rights the chant online is that if someone can do something they should. Nobody should stand aside while others are unfairly persecuted, well as a country we're the only one that doesn't stand aside.
"Those other countries named were working to oppress people as their primary agenda for most of the last century. " What countries are you talking about?
@dahermit In the OP the "countries named" were Russia and China...
So, do you disbelieve the Intel agencies, as 45 does (regardless of his latest takeback)? Or, would you propose that we deserve what the Russians have been doing, and apparently are continuing to do? I'm not sure I understand the purpose of your question.
Yes, we have been aggressors, no doubt about that, but does that negate our right to try to put a stop to the attempted infiltration by a hostile foreign entity? Or, do you think they're our friends?
And, do you consider that trumpus assholis maximus is wholly justified in having sided with Putin? I'm really curious...
Condor5
Level 8
July 17, 2018
1
Do I think our past actions mean we deserve what's going on or should allow it to continue? No.
But there is a popular sentiment surrounding the issue, which seems to directly ignore that not only are these practices not new, but that we as a country (or more appropriately our government) have been a remorseless party to it in the past.
People treat this like a completely unprecedented occurrence in the geopolitical arena and it's not.
@geist171 I was actually addressing the original poster.
Yes, we've done these things, no question; and I, like many here have no fondness for the horrible things that have been done in the name of our government. But, does that mean that it's OK for our highest elected official, POTUS, to in effect, side with the likes of Vlad Putin? To essentially undermine his own country to lick the boots of that man? Not in my book, it doesn't.
@myownmind You just nailed it. There is no reason under the sun that we should be enemies of Russia.
We were behind that illegal overthrow of the Ukrainian Government. Now that’s real meddling for you. A few exposed emails before an election? Anyone with that kind of information SHOULD get it out to the voting public. The more information the better. That’s not meddling.
A few exposed emails before an election? Anyone with that kind of information SHOULD get it out to the voting public. The more information the better. That’s not meddling.
I disagree. As Napoleon is quoted as saying, *Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake." And that would go doubly so if you can assist them in making said mistake - which is what they did with this last election.
It’s easy, we’re afraid that someone else will do it better and our military industrial complex will be in jeopardy.
ThisIsPatrick
Level 6
July 17, 2018
0
I don't know if I can help, but I'll give it a try. Our country was recently saddled with a President who is a real asshole. He's a liar and a cheat and an ignoramus and a racist and a despoiler of the natural environment and......ah, you get the idea. And he didn't even win the popular vote. Not only did he not win a majority, he was significantly helped by a hostile foreign power, one to which this usurper-in-chief unabashedly sucks up to and in fact favors over his own government. We are really, really pissed off by all this. We want him to answer for his crimes. Holding our officials accountable is something we have always aspired to. Also, we are not ready to cede control of our elections (and by extension, our country) to a foreign dictator. Especially not a son of a bitch like Putin. So it's on and we are going to get to the bottom of this thing.
Flyingsaucesir
Level 8
July 18, 2018
0
President Eisenhower warned of the military-industrial complex, Wall Street listened... invested, greed did/does the rest... of course we must protect our vital interests. (S)
Tomas
Level 7
July 18, 2018
0
However, it was Eisenhower who took down a democratically elected government in Guatemala to "protect U.S. interests" (A.K.A. American Fruit Company interests) in about 1954. If I am not mistaken, the democratically elected government was replaced by a right-wing military government that suppressed the common people. It is no wonder that many South and Central Americans hate the U.S.A. [en.wikipedia.org]
@Morganfreeman "you should realize that both governments all they do is “ “." What do you mean by "...both governments..."? You have your own frame of reference, but to someone else, you have not explained what you are thinking.
The congress, senate and POTUS need to supply an enemy to the people so the US can feel morally superior by being wronged.
After all the crap China has pulled it seems odd they are not portrayed as the enemy, maybe too much money involved with China.
MacTavish
Level 7
July 18, 2018
0
We can accuse Russia of attacking us because it is exactly what they did. We may have done bad things to other countries in the past. That doesn't excuse what Russia did.
jwd45244
Level 7
July 17, 2018
0
@powder I sometimes feel the distinction between modern Russia and the the USSR of yesteryear is largely lost in our social discourse.
Granted, if i recall, Putin was a KGB head during the tenure of the USSR, and much like some of our politicians who were serving during the Cold War seem to exhibit some holdover political resentments and perceptions, it's possible he still has old political sentiments informing some of his actions.
I have some respect for Vladimir Putin as a politician and member of the intelligence community...in the same way any person should have respect for an intelligent, dangerous, and unpredictable enemy with resource, political power, and intelligence training.
Imagine if the head of the CIA during the Cold War became President. He's scary like that. And as far as I can tell he's not hobbled by the checks and balances employed by our government.
Enjoy being online again!
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