You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

That's not just in regards to religious beliefs either. People don't give up any beliefs easily, even when confronted with facts.

Why do you want to change anybody? they will change themselves when they want/or feel the need to - I feel agnosticism isn't for everybody and why should it be/ I don't want to live in totalitarian states where everyone has to be the same. I am not on a mission for anybody else's change and the only change I want ot make in my own life is acceptance of what is, rather than what i imagine ought to be - because I am certainly not going to change anything, especially in my U.K. government.

I think you're on to something.

Yes it would be nicer to live in a world where religious superstition is a thing of the past, as an atheist I do not have a need or desire to "spread the word" and convert people away from faith and religion. I very much believe that every person has the right to think or believe whatever bat shit crazy stuff they want, as long as they are not hurting others.
it is one of the things that I understand the least about the faithful, why they seem to feel it is necessary to impose their beliefs and laws on others.
if you think being gay is wrong and that all gay people are going to hell, why do you protest why are you angry, why do you care that random strangers are gay, they are going to hell and you are not, end of story, sell them a cake and move on.
off topic tho lol
at times I have considered starting or looking for some kind of community that would provide similar things to a church experience without the faith part. actually I think I was a part of one for a while when I was younger, the issue with these groups is that without the god element people find it difficult to make attending regularly a priority and things fall apart. the other big issue is community size, the group I was a part of as a youth in northern Ontario (literally a group of parents and kids who were non religious gathering on Sundays so the kids could together) things started falling apart as A)kids aged out and B)people moved away,
in the pre internet days it would have been nearly impossible to establish an international community of atheists and agnostics, now tho seem possible, could be a good place to start if you mission is to wake people up to reality, providing an alternative community to take part in that has all of the benefits of a religious community just without the religion, might make it easier for the faithful to let go of the faith

Totally agree.

I also think it's that element of "belief". We make up beliefs in the absence of any actual data, but the nature of the belief convinces us that our belief is "truth." This it comes built in with a self-defense mechanism. The beliefs about God also deal with those nagging questions that humans can't seem to live without answer to: Why are we here? What happens when we die? What's our purpose in life.

Belief answer all of those, and when that belief is taken away, with it go all the comforts those beliefs brought with them. I think beliefs are necessary since we've been doing it throughout our existence. They help us make sense out of the myriad of information bombarding us constantly, but we haven't figure out how to use them judiciously, and therefore we become their slaves rather than using them to help bridge gaps in our understanding until we have enough information to know otherwise.

If this was a "reasonable" debate, we wouldn't be having it. It's an emotional debate, and that's a whole other problem.

I completely agree. I absolutely don't care what others believe, as long as they don't try to convert me to their beliefs of govern based on it. I never, ever try to convert religious people to my beliefs. Of course there is an evangelical radical fringe who want to make America a theocracy, and they are enabled by Trump and his minions, so I will fight them with every fiber of my being.

You are right. Humans are hard-wired for tribalism. Free thinkers are variants on the more independent end of the spectrum. Still, we have community. It is just loosely knit.

I agree. We are tribal primates. To the sense of belonging, I’d add fear of death, fear of the unknown, lack of meaning (even though you dismissed it in my post on the subject ?).

If atheism is to become more popular it must find secular ways to address the emotional aspects individuals get from religion. Not all people think rationally or favor reason over emotions. People also have a lot of fears and strong instincts. We think that showing religious people their beliefs don’t make sense will make them refuse religion. That’s far from being true. Most people don’t believe absurd things with their rational mind obviously. it’s their emotional/spiritual/tribal sphere that makes them hold to their beliefs. Most of the time only speaking to those emotions is it possible to get a shot.

I couldn't agree more. I understand that some non-religious Unitarian "churches" attempt to fill that need. I guess some Unitarian "churches" are religious, presumably tied to Christianity, and some (most?) have no connection with Christianity (I'm not an expert in this regard). My wife was Jewish (not very religious but still Jewish) and after we had kids she wanted the kids to get Jewish instruction. We joined a temple for several years but I was eventually convinced that Judaism was just as hocus-pocus as Christianity. Where I did not buy the religious aspects, I very much appreciated the connection with the community and, to some degree, the fellowship tied to the religion. I believe that the sense of belonging and connection with the community has far more draw to religion than the actual devotion to or .

They think the same thing... thus, trolls.

It’s kind of like telling a Republican Obama was a great President or an NRA member that gun control is not confiscation of their precious guns. Their ears close up immediately.

I think it's cultural too. "I am muslim, jewish, catholic" is about your history, your identity and as you say your tribe. In fact there are some who call themselves muslim atheists or jewish atheists..... which describes their cultural roots but don't agree with the dogma. The muslim world would consider me and most of you as 'christian' just because we are grouped together and our cultural background is what is being described.

i agree with your conclusion but not the reasoning for it. religion is certainly not the only way for people to achieve that feeling of belonging. however, there is no hope that by being militant we will ever get people to leave their superstitions behind. i think our real work is getting people to stop legislating them. without that, it doesn't even matter what people do or don't believe; believers and nonbelievers alike are more and more being compelled to tolerate living in a christian country (speaking of the usa, anyway). nothing is going to change internally as long as we tolerate that toxic environment.

g

The UU is a good choice as they welcome us and I served on the board of directors for 3 years and even provided a sermon one Sunday on atheism.

Preach!