Thank you for the comments. . . My point is this is more complicated than the narrow focus on STEM fields is looney.

Thank you.

Thank you for understanding the premise and the sarcasm.

I am interested in truth. Not the many times unpacked, and found to be wanting, narratives, that were based in badly science and philosophy, all too often called upon in defense against reason.

Women do not want to do some of the jobs that pay lots of money. Athough this skews the averages, men are still responsible for the pay-gap. This is stoopid.

The women who are complaining that women are refused access to STEM studies and jobs, are also the women who refuse to believe the scientific research results that the pay gap essentially does not exist? Women who want to be scientists refuse to accept the findings of science! Ironic much?

How can we ever fix what is really broken if too many think the least infraction requires all our energies? That there is a deliberately acting entity?

We live in a time of post-reason as the result of significant undereducation, and the lack of a common definition of reality.

We are in danger of continuing our medieval period.

But is it reasonable to put anyone in a position to be more likely to be killed? I am objecting to the push to include women equality when they don't want to be there. I am a classical feminist.

@Jacar I don't want to be a lion tamer. That means prevent all men from being one?

@Count_Viceroy . Thanks for the clarity.

Oh! I should add, I get paid the same, lmao! Can't take this...

I have only seen one work place death . The building I was working in , was getting a new roof applied . I left my desk to get a soda from the machine , and when I returned , there was a man lying on the floor , in front of my desk , bleeding out from a crushed skull .In spite of the fact that his supervisor had told him not to sit on the skylights , when it came time for his lunch , he sat on the skylight to eat , and fell through , landing head first on the poured concrete floor . In this case , at least , there were two causes for his death , first , he did not listen to his supervisor and second , he chose to be stupid . I spent a summer reroofing my own home , and though it was scary , I made a point of not falling off . At work , I began in the secretarial field , but switched to electronics , and immediately noticed blatant discrimination in the workplace , even though I earned a degree in IFSM and my bosses had not .

It somehow STILL manages to be women's fault by his logic...to him feminism did it !

Root of all evil dontcha know.

These are the statistics recorded by hundreds of organizations. Why is stating them so derided?

@Jacar ohferpetessake............any of those organizations called OSHA? Betcha Not!

i didn't write the article. . . . Some of these realities are new to me as well.

And increasing, as i learn about these realities, I am increasingly tired of all the women as victim narratives that are based in NO factual information. Men and women are significantly different. To demand otherwise is wasted effort.

Were there a lot of other women working in your field? If not, than you should know that the truth is most women have no desire to do some of these male dominated jobs. That has been my experience as a woman working with all men, every job I’ve had since entering my field.

@ForesterJenny no, very very few as Nuclear submarine hands-on builders...lots of female clerical (much lower pay!) support staff, of course. I myself, before they hired women there, worked 3 part-time jobs, waitress/bartender. Altho I made good money, not one of them had benefits, such as vacations, of course no insurance or retirement. All I did was change uniforms & drive from one to the other, I had to live at home as a single mother as my young child needed care, and I worked crazy hours. When I heard EB was hiring women, I got down there in a heartbeat. 3 months later I had my own place, a new car, health benefits, normal 40-hour day hours with (gasp!) Overtime and regular raises! While dirty & sometimes dangerous, the work was no more physically demanding than working in a cotton mill or pants-manufacturing sweatshop, or even bartending like I had done before. Absolute Heaven!

@AnneWimsey do you wonder why other single mothers etc don’t do the same? I truly think women shy away from those sorts of opportunities. Like I said, I practically beg young women to come be my students. But they give me an”awe hell no” at thebfirst mention of snakes and ticks.

PS: I’m a single mom too! Found my calling now but it was a struggle getting through college and working my way up. But I absolutely love my dirty dirty field of work

@AnneWimsey I called OSHA & the MAN they sent hit on me. I wanted to spit. I think I will.

@Countrywoman where was your union rep or shop steward a that time!??!

How to fix it.. what I have seen work is force companies to hire a percentage of females .. at some point a critical mass happens and they don't have to force it to happen (females see it as a valid career path and go to it on their own making a qualified base to draw from)..
Ie: unionized road construction saw this happen.. (long story)

Late dh was in petroleum industry, 99% out "in the field" making the 6 figures are men.

If this were the only reason, the differential would be lower.

@hippydog . . . The better question is, "Is there anything to fix?"

@Jacar if you believe in equality for all, then the obvious answer is yes..
I shall assume your answer is no?

@Jacar "If this were the only reason"
I don't think it's the only reason. I think it's a systematic layered problem with no easy nor simple fix.

@hippydog . . .It is very complicated. And all of the emphasis about encouraging women to do jobs and stuff that they do not want to do. And, reasonably should not.
To deny that the reason women are underrepresented because men are stopping them is stoopid. Scandinavia has demonstrated that women do not want the jobs that are being arbitrarily supported.

@Jacar I don't agree.. I have seen the positive results that happened when they brought (ok forced) more females into the police force and firefighters in Canada. Ya it was a bit painful to make that kind of change that quickly, but it's hard to deny the positive outcomes that have happened because of it.. and once it hit critical mass it is becoming self perpetuating ..

I have to ask why are you so against it?
How is it harming you?
Dont you want your daughter or niece to have the same opportunity as you?

@hippydog . . Your comments seem to reflect that you do not understand my original post. Nor the satire.
Women do not want to do certain jobs. I am fine with that. But i am not fine with being told that men are stopping women from doing jobs they do not want to do.
Equal opportunity is the default position. Equal outcomes is stoopid. hence my satire.

@Jacar " you do not understand my original post. Nor the satire" ..
You got me there. Especially the satire part??

"Women do not want to do certain jobs. I am fine with that. But i am not fine with being told that men are stopping women from doing jobs they do not want to do."

Both are opinions.. mine Is first person experience though.. yours I think is based on a false unprovable premise.. I will say it again.. women do want those jobs ESPECIALLY after they get to see other females in that job and and talk to them about it. I'm not making this up. I have known people who went thru it.. females have outright posted their personal first hand experiences here and you basically ignored it..

But neither of us I think is capable of changing the others mindset on this , so I think im done.

Loving this! Well written, well researched,l actual points made beautifully. You go, Qualia!

This is, by a very long way, the best comment I have ever read on this site.

@Jnei, @AnneWimsey Why thank you ladies. I thought there were too many golden points of view in it not to share. It puts to words for me what I sensed a great deal of, but couldn't "name" as well as this.
I mean, so many angry, but they wrote the book. smh

Wonderful stuff. All of it helps clarify the complexity of these issues. And completely misses the point.

Most women don't want these jobs. So, should we assume they are only underrepresented by the behavior of men? Just as in the STEM fields. Most women want to work in groups. The STEM fields are lonely studies, pursued by people who like working alone. Why should we try to get more women to do what they don't want to?

The CERN management, which has the whole planet as a source of talent, has stated that despite all their efforts, they cannot get the percent of women employed above 20 percent. That is a major clue that the pursuit of such a goal is probably unreasonable.

@Jacar Who says most women don't want these jobs? You?
How does it completely miss the point?
You're railing on why more women aren't in dangerous jobs assuming there are no women who would do them.
Guess I'm not most women either. I'd rather NOT work in a group.

FFS a big oil company in my area hired a homeless guy out of industry (retail back when he did work) . You think no women wanted to even try to do his job? $20+ per hour with cadillac health insurance?
Whatever.

@Qualia . . . Scandinavia is the most egalitarian area on the planet. The difference in choice between women and men are the greatest with respect to studies and work.
Women, mostly, don't want to do jobs that are primarily done singly, alone, not in groups.
So, the empirical evidence is clear. When men are not stopping women, the women do not do what the current "feminists" think they should.
My post is semi-satire. But is makes the point: if women want equality in all things, they need to also be sharing the danger equally.

How is that not reasonable?

many of these jobs require large bodies and strength. Even small men should not be doing them.
Why should we assume there needs to be an effort to get more women involved in jobs they don't want to do?

@Jacar Just to be clear. are you saying there are no women with large bodies and strengh? Because that's factually wrong. Are you saying that no women want those jobs? Again, factually wrong.
Also, you are making a strawman agument. Nobody is saying we should actively get women to do jobs. What people argue for is erasing barriers. Women appy for all those jobs but tend to not get them as easily as men do. If no woman would write a job application for a certain job quotas for instance couldn't work.

@Dietl no one is saying “no women”. They are saying few women. And it’s the truth. Again, I live it every day.

@ForesterJenny I agree. But I think women who do want those jobs and are capable of doing them should have the opportunity. But prejudices are often in the way. The goal is not to have more women in those jobs but to give them an equal opportunity. I feel that Jacar misses that point from time to time.

@Dietl in my experience, industries with few women want more of them. Forestry is no exception. This is because diversity seems to matter across the board these days. We are trying to attract more women.

@ForesterJenny I also see different industries opening up to women and stereotypes being overthrown or at least not being so prevalent anymore. I think this is a good development and I can't really understand people who are sceptical about women doing those jobs and acting like this is such a big deal.

@Dietl . . . How can you ask that?
Women do not want these jobs. And they prolly should not be allowed to attempt them. To do so, for many activities, is way dangerous for them and for society.

Our species is not on the brink of extinction, so why would we care about a few million cells? And couldn't you argue the same about sperm cells? You sound like a sexist to me ;-P

@maturin1919, @Dietl

I’m hardwired by nature to think that way. I have no choice.

@WilliamFleming Fight against your animal instincts, you can do it!

The world environment is becoming unlivable due to human overpopulation. Find out where those lay their eggs and break them.

@maturin1919, @dahermit, @Dietl

Think of your mama, eight months pregnant with you inside. Now visualize her up on a scaffold a hundred feet high. Better yet think of her storming the beach at Tarawa with the Marines.

@WilliamFleming I don't think a pregnant person should do dangerous jobs just like I woulnd't want ill people doing them. But a healthy woman, why not?
But let me get this straight, when envisioning men in those scenarios you don't care about them? Wouldn't you want the male Marines not having to fight too?

Believe it or not, women are all individuals capable of making decisions and life choices for themselves, and any woman may choose to be a soldier, firefighter, combat pilot or any other dangerous profession rather than wrapping herself in cotton wool to protect her precious eggs so that she can "do her duty" by having babies. What you want women to do doesn't even come into the question.

Exactly. And yet. Lots of people claim that women are being restricted from the STEM fields, which on average are lonely pursuits, which women are not interested.

@Dietl . . . more women, more women, more women,....

@Dietl, @Jnei . . exactly the point of every study about the pay gap and equality.
Scandinavia is prolly the most egalitarian area on the planet. The differences between what men and women choose for work are larger there than anywhere else.

Equality of opportunity never equals opportunity of outcomes.

@Dietl

Of course I care about them. My uncle was killed in the invasion of Tarawa and I never got to meet him.

It’s just that no society uses women in that way. If you believe in social evolution you might consider that societies that did not protect women died out. It’s survival of the fittest.

@Jnei:
As individuals we can do as we like, but please note that societies that used women for dangerous occupations died out ages ago, or they really never got started. There are good reasons why things are as they are.

@WilliamFleming That's the biggest load of bollocks I've read in quite a while. Just a few societies that allow women to serve as combatants include the UK, the USA, Norway, Sweden, India, Germany, Turkey and Sri Lanka (there are numerous others). Each of them have been around for quite a while and are still with us. That's without even getting started on societies that "use" women to perform other dangerous occupations.

@Jacar Could you tell me what data you are using concerning the gender differences in work choices? But even in the most egalitarian countries one could argue that there is not an equality of opportunnity yet. If a job traditionally has been considered to be for only one gender those stereotypes don't vanish in one or two generations.

@Jnei

You are talking about what women CAN do today while I’m just trying to understand what all of us ACTUALLY do and why. It’s true that women have the right to work in any field they choose, but the fact is, if the article in question is true, few women choose dangerous careers such as commercial fishing, construction, etc. Only a few women in each generation buck the trend.

Also, you are talking about social trends of the last thirty or forty years. I am trying to understand society from the perspective of human evolution over hundreds of thousands of years, or even millions.

There are natural reasons why things are as they are, and it behooves us to understand those reasons before making radical changes.

@Dietl . . such information is available from the FED employment stats. With hundreds of articles about how the simple stat of 78% is stoopid.

Again, thank you for understanding the satire. Yet, there are way too many people that defend encouraging women to aspire to be a scientist, but they will oppose women being placed in danger. And, somehow that is called adjusting historical inequities.

I no doubt will be fired from google and from cern. Oh woe is me.