Word

Post em'.

@Donotbelieve I think the internet has caused a real set back for young girls and young men. They post pictures of themselves posing like models, pouting, looking cool, sexy and it's all about looks and how many 'likes' the pic attracts. This can put enormous pressure on some of our young people and it also makes them very superficial.

@Donotbelieve it is sad indeed. And you are right, some women still feel the need to "marry well" to have wealth by association. This comes from thousands of years of religion stating, as in the bible, that women were put here to serve men. Quite disgusting.

@Donotbelieve Yes. She is.

@Donotbelieve Thank you. That means a lot. You have my respect as well.

@Donotbelieve The first line was sarcasm, I agree as I say, but would apply the principle to everyone not just women.
I too have had the "Look you a nice guy, I really like you but I don't date short men/men with curly hair/guys with big noses etc" stuff too.
I'm 5'3" and have always found tall women attractive, the time I was told that they could not date me because it would "Look stupid" I cannot count. The damage done to my ego landed me in my first marriage and as a sufferer of domestic abuse, feeling I was lucky to have anyone.
After that experience, I dropped all and every idea of finding anyone attractive for any physical reason and concentrated on finding nice people. For a few years a had a great time and made great friends until meeting my second wife in settling in to a great (so far) marriage of 27 years.
Looking your best is a natural instinct, everyone wants to be thought attractive, but it is the long run just a superficial attraction, real appreciation comes from compatibility admiration and trust.

@Donotbelieve Does it matter? But hey, even if the article is "slightly (just slightly - eye roll) embellished)" we should take everything it says as the gospel. BTW...pointing out the vast divide between 'talk the talk' of this article...and 'walk the walk' of what you see, is not being defensive...it's pointing out b/s. If I'm wrong...I should see next time in the store the cover of Cosmo, or Elle with the main article being "How to get a man to appreciate your mind and achievements in ten easy steps". If you want men to change the way you're perceived, perhaps you should change the way (via your wallets) how the media panders to your feminine interests. Just a thought...

@jondspen The change has to happen from men. As long as men are shallow then the industry will continue to cater to what works.

@Donotbelieve Men objectify women...and women objectify men. It's called attraction, and what drives initial interest in another person. And we all have heard about how people decide if they will sleep with the person in the first 5 seconds. So let's not pretend that physical attraction, for both sexes, is not important.

Second, don't start playing the personal victim card just b/c I point out the blatant hypocrisy of the female sex SAYING they want to be respected for their mind, yet spending over 60 Billion dollars in the makeup industry alone. [statista.com] An industry that does testing on animals. And lets not talk about the money on the diet industry. Or the clothing industry - where many of the affordable clothes are created in sweat shops with child labor. If it doesn't apply to you personally...whooptie frigging do...that doesn't change the fact that it's WOMEN who BUY MAKEUP...it's WOMEN who go on unhealthy diets to fit in that little black dress...it's WOMEN who buy the magazines. Women have adorned themselves as far back as we have historical evidence to attract the attention of men. Men have adorned themselves to attract the attention of women. Let's cut the hypocritical crap it doesn't go both ways...and will continue to. If you're an atheist/agnostic, I assume you also believe in natural selection and evolution - both of which INCREASE the strength of the ensuing generations because of being attracted to certain traits.

Third, don't say I didn't hear or understand just b/c YOU don't want to engage my question directly. I have pointed out the obvious flaw in the article, but you have yet to address the very OBVIOUS and REAL ECONOMIC reality of every day life. Furthermore, why should I not objectify a women? Is she not an object and does she not exist in space and time? As far as the 'other' less physical meaning of objectify - does she not objectify me? Am I not size me up for my ability to protect, provide, procreate? An apple is an object...should I feel guilty that I see it as a delicious, nutritious snack object? No....it is what it is - nothing wrong or evil about that - so let's stop the men are bad for being men, but women can do the exact same thing and it's called "being selective" or "not settling for anything less than what they want". And they can do it while still buying makeup, dieting their ass off, and then buying a dress to show off the curves.

@Donotbelieve "Sexual objectification, the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire" [en.wikipedia.org] Per your article, I am now being told how to give a compliment.
Regardless of the intent of my compliment, or if I objectified the women when giving it, all that matters is how the women interprets the compliment. OK....I have an idea...maybe I shouldn't give compliments since I can't read minds...and every person is different, and every person has good and bad days, so even the same compliment could be construed in a different way for nothing more than the mood that person is in at that specific moment. Hmmm...seems like an exercise in futility for men...while women and their shifting emotions should be pandered too constantly.

Again though...thank you for avoiding the reality that women via diet, makeup, and dress objectify themselves to attract male attention. Can't eat our cake and have it too if we acknowledge that little fact of economic reality.

@Nukdookum "The change has to happen from men. As long as men are shallow then the industry will continue to cater to what works."

No.. I don't agree.. it has to happen from both sides.. I just don't agree with nukdookum in the idea that we are somehow already there and no more work has to be done.. I think we still have a long ways to go. But we need feminists on both sides and at all age groups for it to keep moving forward.

Those industries work hard to make women feel bad about themselves in order to sell products. There is a lot of external (read: societal) pressure for women to look good. And most of that is based on the expectation that we are supposed to lol good FOR men.

That’s all conditioning. Duh.

@A2Jennifer I would like to quote a women I highly respect, and a role model I held up for my daughters to emulate:

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

But hey, I know that kind of thinking isn't popular in today's perpetual victim, always blame someone else (usually a man) feminist mentality, so don't expect to get many likes on it.

@Nukdookum I disagree. Change has to happen from both men and women. If we (women) want the rules of the game to change, we have to be willing you change how we play it. Which brings me to @jondspen who I think has a valid point which is being lost in the battle of words...if we don't want men objectifying us and focusing on our looks rather than our accomplishments, we should absolutely be the ones fighting against the multi billion dollar industry that propagates that mentality. Is it far more meaningful for someone to compliment me on how I think, do my job, or engage with people than to tell me I look good? Absofuckinglutely. So it makes sense that is where the lions share of my effort goes, not into trying to be my less than skin deep best. Sure, there are many of us who do walk the walk, and there are many men who are inherently supportive of such efforts, but until women who are walking the walk can get through to those who are only happy in their market best and convince them to stop using their looks to improve their chances of success, how in the hell do we expect men to change the way they see us?

@jondspen At the very least, jon is right in his statements about how women (maybe not even most women on this site, but most of them in our society) judge, objectify men just as much as most men in the society objectify women. My experience, as well as that of most men in the dating game, esp. online, have borne that out as well as the studies of online dating behavior and attraction on those sites. Donotbelieve, could you at least concede that point to him?

@Amzungu2 Beautiful, intelligent, and elegant in mind, body and soul. Don't know if you get told this enough, not many of us do, but I am truly impressed. What I find most appealing, is that you realize you are human, special, deserving of love and respect, but are not afraid to own up to your faults and shortcomings. I know that isn't popular to do today, and seems like some people want to use one's openness and honestly to make themselves look better. But ANY person with the courage to face themselves in the mirror and share what they see publicly with others, exhibits true strength and character - something that always earns the deepest respect from me every time. Now let me go find my socks you just knocked off!

@TomMcGiverin - and thank you for your input on the matter. I think men appreciate the compliments, even if it is objectifying somewhat. Plus, I don't think men put as much self-evaluation on the comments of women when it's pro. I think we just accept it as a compliment about one part of us, realize there is more to us, but don't rely on them to compliment every damn part of our character/personality (at least not initially - as in the context of this article's embellished interaction). I think we do internalize them more when it's negative though - which biologically would make sense. Bowerbirds that fail on their nest, or get rejected, work on improving it - they don't feel bad when their nest is objectified and they 'get some egg'

@jondspen Mission accomplished, then... after all, I can't properly objectify a man with his socks on. ?
More seriously, thank you, that was very thoughtfully said.

@jondspen Everyone wants to look their best when they go looking for a mate. It would be perfectly normal for some hot young thing to catch your eye. What the article is saying is women want to be recognised not JUST as eye candy. Now you could got up to the hot young thing and tell her she has fantastic tits but that is not be the most respectful thing to say to another human being. However if you just started a conversation with her, found out she was smart and funny, you may find her more receptive to your overtures. You may even find her MORE attractive because of these attributes.

@Donotbelieve I went back and reread your initial response to my comment. Sure, one sentence at the end you talk about you and some other women on this thread - which I don't know what that has to do with the article or the dichotomy about the billion dollar industries - a point you still refuse to address directly. But let's be honest here, the other 5 paragraphs in it were belittling me, attacking me, and at one point saying I "should have a more respectful tone" - which really the only disrespect part of my OP was my ending comment about feminist hypocrisy. Sorry, but hypocrisy doesn't deserve respect IMO. My argument was pointed toward the article, but you tried to turn it into a personal attack to discredit me, and therefore my point. Sorry, you did ignore "that fact" of the industries continually in your responses, you refused to engage that women promote this industry and situation, and you continue to play the victim about people can't understand your counter point because you want to make an argument that isn't about the article or the economic hypocrisy, but all about you as victim. Never at one point did I attack you personally until now - that's just typical play book on winning an argument - disregard the point and paint the other side as being a bully and belittling, while you do the bullying, belittling, and name calling. No - I'm not going to let that pass without calling it out.

@Donotbelieve Aren't you in the Hot Hunks group? How is this not objectifying men? Please don't think I'm judging, but it's a valid point. Eliminating sexual objectification on all fronts is not a reasonable expectation. Appropriateness of interpersonal interactions is where the conversation should be focused, and unfortunately objectifying the opposite sex in certain circumstances is just as much a part of that conversation as closing the wage gap and discouraging the 'old boys club' from treating us like material possessions.

@Donotbelieve Never ignored it, never denied it....Not the same as coming out and admitting it or agreeing here in print with jon. Would it kill you to have done so?

@Donotbelieve You attitude is unbelievable. You remind me of the Repubs, never concede a point, even when you are wrong, just because it would look weak. Keep repeating it long enough and it will look like you won, etc.

@MsDemeanour So an article on everydayfeminism.com is suppose to be read by disrespectful 'cat calling guys', change their perceptions if they even stumble across it, but never once addresses how women engage in the same behavior (after all - men only need to change, women are being 'sexually open and free' ), and constantly "womansplains" to men in the article. Sorry, but this isn't about how objectifying PEOPLE is wrong (be you a man or a woman) - it's a typical feminist attack on men, while ignoring the blatant hypocrisy about women 1 - setting themselves up for objectification via makeup, diet, clothing and 2 - their pass on objectifying men with stuff like the "Hot Hunks Group" (which I don't have a problem with - just don't participate then take the soapbox against the other sex for the same thing which is a part of our natural sexuality). I call this out b/c as a father of two daughters and a granddaughter - I can see how this hypocrisy can really do damage to them being seen as equals in society. You can't respect someone who's a hypocrite - I think we can all agree to that.

@Donotbelieve I do hear what you are saying, and completely agree with the sentiment of placing more value on a compliment that isn't physically focused. But I also firmly believe we need men as allies in this fight against societal expectation and far too often see us pitting them as the enemy. We all objectify, and we all could do better in that regard. I simply think we would get farther faster if we turned the microscope inward and focused on our individual responsibility in the equation and worked toward changing ourselves before we expect others to change for us.

@Donotbelieve Yes. Exactly. Far too often women are unwilling to accept the responsibility we have in propagating societal expectations of physical attractiveness. You know where I feel the most pressure to be "more feminine and focused on my looks'? From other women. We can't ignore that as part of the problem, and in my opinion is where the most work needs to be done in regards to change.

@Donotbelieve OMG, she finally admits she was wrong about something...Yes, now that you've shown a trace of humility and fairness, we can get on to working out a truce with you, me, jon, and whoever. I was just about ready to block you.

@jondspen sure. Because everything that you are taught for your entire life probably shouldn’t have any impact on you ?