Are you saying we don’t need border security? That’s what this is about. There will only be walls in cities.

@Trajan61 (that’s not a good approach… I think she’s willing to work with you) Many democrats - (and I’m not talking about ‘polls’ in which the fear of ‘sounding like a racist’ has people answering contrary to their actual opinions) - are aware of and willing to work with republicans to fix this. But if they’re given nothing but an ultimatum.. as in, ‘you either support this wall,’ ‘or you don’t support border security,’ you’re gonna lose em…

‘The Wall’s’ idiotic. When in Oregon, it was likely after Reagan’s increased border enforcement (after his Amnesty) that small boats were showing up offshore. Oregon’s beaches are not only ‘all public,’ but undefended Illegal immigrants were being dropped off in the surf, given bag lunches, crude maps and directions to the Willamette Valley. The Coast Guard had no idea what to do ..other than ‘monitor’ the situation and provide aid to anyone in trouble.

That’s one reason your post on Sanctuary Cities grabbed me; if illegal economic opportunist can penetrate our massive border, they’re nearly home free. But further polarizing the nation in response to it is not working - the Left has doubled down because the Right has gone nuts … time for the Middle to unite?

@Varn Sounds very reasonable. We need to work together to solve the illegal imigration problem.

@Trajan61 Do you not understand plain english?

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

@Trajan61 WTF then..? How do we, as US Citizens come together on this? I’d not looked into the Democrats proposal to trump in place of ‘a wall,’ but it may be worth consideration.. But then ‘we know how it goes,’ something is kinda done for a little while ..till nobody's watching, then it’s dropped...

I was once responsible (though never let it be known back in the day) ..not so long ago for having basically broken up my and another active Dem’s attempt at initiating a democrats group in a nearby town. An extremist questioned my use of the term ‘illegal,’ I described why, the meeting went chaotic and the room divided...

...A considerate, moderate couple timidly approached me, “We want to thank you for what you said,” “We’ve felt the same way,” “But as Democrats,” “Didn’t feel we were allowed to say it.” And, having ‘manned’ many a Dem’s Booth in various small town venues, I constantly came across the same, with their approaches too varied to describe.

We had a booth sign that read, “When Latinos vote, Democrats win.” A considerate guy stood back pondering it, then asked, “What is that supposed to mean?” Shook my head sideways.. He said something like, “That’s where I part ways with the Democratic Party.” We had one reading the same for ‘Women,’ too. I let our party chair know that when I worked the booth, those came down - ‘if I can’t explain them, I can’t support them.’

Originally a registered Republican, Reagan, and his religious butt-kissing drove me out.. I’ve a very small contingent of moderate republican friends having remained within the party. So, it’s either one or the other… And I’ve nearly given up attempting to convince ‘fellow democrats’ that we’re getting our butts kicked over this issue!

It’s bigger than both of us, and as mentioned, I take shit every time I speak truth to this issue… But let me know if you think there’s hope for a serious compromise. It’s hard to believe the upper echelon Dems aren’t aware of those among the ranks who’d also like to see something done … but whenever questioned ..feel they’d best parrot the party line ~

@Varn Not sure what the answer is but I’m sure there should be some way to compromise. I’d do think we need to get a handle on illegal imigration one somehow.

If you don’t want refugees then don’t go into their counter and start trouble.

@Jolanta Two wrongs don’t make a right.

@Varn What she is saying is that we the U.S. should not be turning those countries into shitholes so they would rather stay home than come here.

@Lucy_Fehr We must continue to fight as diligently against rogue presidents & bad policy as those having illegally entered our nation.

I occasionally think back to my research on the entry requirements of various nations I’d considered. It never once struct me to just ‘move in.’ As if Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, England, Costa Rica, France, Canada, Switzerland (my family heritage) or Belize would or should allow me to sneak in, take someone else's job, begin consuming their social welfare … and eventually become a citizen because I hadn’t ‘committed a crime.’

I wish I had more time but first I wish to say that I do not advocate just letting the illegals come in and gain citizenship except for children that came in with their parents and have lived here long enough to be American in their viewpoints and have little to no memory of their birth country

I have been researching other countries with an eye to perhaps retiring to one some day and of course will take the time to learn the language, customs, laws and mores but wish to point out that you and I are in a relatively safe and affluent country compared to the people coming here.

You're comparing apples to oranges regarding emigrating FROM the U.S to countries that are all also relatively stable

I don't for one second doubt that should a meteor hit the U.S. and the only decent place left to live was Mexico- you, me and millions of others would be stampeding for the border heading south.

@Lucy_Fehr ...and I’m getting a bit tired of repeating myself.. But our nation is what it is because those before us fought for the rights we have. All of them. What I see are economic opportunists, not refugees fleeing natural disasters..

@Varn I don't know what you keep repeating as I don't recall discussing this with you prior to today and perhaps natural disaster was a bad choice when their issues are for the most part caused by the meddling of our country rather than a meteor.

The freedoms we got by decimating the indigenous peoples already here right? Or bringing democracy to countries that just happen to have the resources our way of life depends on?

Im sure there are a number of opportunists attempting to immigrate but most just want a better life in that country that has as a national symbol a statue inviting them: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

We went to their countries, meddled, caused a cluster fuck or worse and now want to blame the poor wretches for wanting to leave?

The U.S. has been opportunists since before we were our own country. Manifest destiny and all that.

We never stopped invading and taking whatever we wanted.

@Lucy_Fehr Yah, we’ve meddled in a lot of countries, and saved a lot of others, but that doesn't give their inhabitants the right to invade ours. We all want a better life, but instead of fleeing, some of us fight.

That ‘statue of liberty piece’ was not sanctioned or placed there by our government, and at best, depicts a time past. The USA remains the most generous nation on the planet with regard to the number of immigrants it legally admits every year, and the most diverse.

The history of humanity is aggressive, every lasting nation has either expanded or defended it’s borders. Indigenous peoples of the Americas stole both territory and enslaved neighboring tribes for eons. Shit happens, yes. But there’s no reason to put up with it..

Even as a legal resident I am called an Alien. On my green card I have an A#.

@Green_eyes Wow! Are you one of those shape-shifting reptilian people who are taking over the world? I never met one before. This would be a very exciting moment if you were!

@MsDemeanour I’m a tall blond white woman so naturally the republicans don’t have issue with me.. but if anything changes I’ll let you know! Lol

So let’s just do away with border security? Is that your suggestion?

@Trajan61 Absolutely not! Lets quit focusing on structures alone and focus on other, more successful means. The idea of building a wall not only has limits (people are always find ways around or under them) but it is only one point in a myriad of other necessary steps (like what do we do when they get here or how do we handle the Rio Grande River).
Ever hear of the Maginot line? Guess what, it didn't work and, in fact the Germans actually used it against the French. [damninteresting.com]

@JackPedigo The Maginot like didn’t work because If was outdated at the time it was built by advances in moble warfare and there was no way a fixed fortification could withstand an assault from the powerful German Wehrmacht with its Blitzkreig tastics. The Iron Curtain worked quite well at curtailing the movement of people from the communist east to the capitalist west. There’s never been any intention of building a wall all along the border, just in heavily populated areas. Even though Trump likes to use the term “build the wall” the 5 billion is for border security. Since you oppose border security what do you purpose, just let all the people that want to come just come on up?

@Trajan61 That is BS. The Marginot wall fell because the Germans went around it. It was not outdated at the time. Again, simple solutions do not and have not worked. There is also a complete failure to understand the terrible environmental and property rights damage of such a wall. A wall already exists and, through other means the flow of people from Mexico has been slowed (under Obama). There are actually, more illegals coming from Canada. Should we build a wall there as well????

So according to you the Maginot line worked so why not the wall on the southern border?

White supremist crimes are very rare so what are you talking about?

@Trajan61 According to Southern Poverty Law Center, and the latest FBI statistics for 2016 and 2017, hate crimes and violent crimes by white supremicists are up by 400% since Trump took office. And they estimate that a large percentage go unreported due to intimidation and fear. So your statement is patently false and is not supported by the facts.

@Trajan61 I wouldn't call this rare....
[motherboard.vice.com]

@t1nick The Southern Justice Poverty law center is a biased liberal piece of crap and therefore very unreliable.

@Trajan61 The law center deals in empirically collected, statistical facts. Yes it is liberal in the positions it takes. But everything they espouse is backed up by empirical facts. You haven't stated one factually based argument in the year I've known you on this site.

@Trajan61 and you opinion of the FBI statistics is what?

Most likely...but this fact doesn't mean we have "to import" criminals from abroad. Enough with the nationals.

@DUCHESSA Duchessa, your French immigrated from Argentina. Your argument is like the pot calling the kettle lack. Good for some, but not others. Only good for those with "pedigree" or money, but not for others less fortunate?

@t1nick 1) I am not French but Argentinean. 2) My parents were the frenchies. 3) No comparison, darling...I will not go into details but I entered USA legally. So, dear, as I said, NO COMPARISON...OF ANY KIND.

4. Here, dear darling, we are NOT talking about less fortunate, with money and/or pedigree....but about possible criminal, terrorists and the possibility of diseases. Sure, you don't remember the Marielitos? Not only Cuba sent criminals but also mental cases. Solon, dear.

@DUCHESSA. Given the sheer number, statistics assures you will have a small percentage of criminals in the group. No proof that its anything more than a few. If the customs are going their job,( no reason to assume they are not) the majority of criminals should get identified in the vetting.

The majority of the people fleeing and in the caravans are not criminals. Simply peoplefleeing the crime, the Gangs, the poverty of their own country. Of which the US is complicit in creating by our interjection in their country politics last Century. The drug dealers, gang members, and assorted bad elements do not apply for assylum and go through customs vetting. They sneak over the border. In which case we are not speaking about them.

@t1nick Sure, the number of criminals "will be smaller than the number of people fleeing their countries....but criminals nonetheless

Don't tell me why they are leaving their countries because I know about it a lot more and better than you do. OK? See....fleeing their countries is not going to solve anything; they should remain there and correct the problems....starting by removing the crooked politicians. Yes, dear, the people of a nation -together- is invincible. Read "Fuenteovejuna.

@DUCHESSA i hear you. But I don't think these prople are in any position to change their politicians
short of mass assasinations. Elections fixed, govt, paramilitary, and gangs have strsnglehold.

If customs works, no criminals should make it through vetting (some slways do, but minimal - if customs doing their job).

@DUCHESSA Duchessa. Correct me if Im mistaken. The urban population in Argentina is by far more educated and sophisticated than the peasants coming north from Central America. The rural area of Argentina, perhaps not so much.

As such, access to power, lack of access to resources for fighting back against the groups oppressing them, and any level of sophistication makes the peasnts choices much more limited. An intellectual society hss much greater chance of succeeding (not to say a grass roots movements of peasants can't succeed see Okinawa)

@t1nick I won't give you a class in Argentina's economy, geography and social situation....but you can rest assured that regardless of their situation (Argentina's power rests on the rural area) the people there DO NOT want illegals in the country.
And no, dear darling, fortunately Macri is not Maduro. You should have asked your question during the previous president; she was a cancer for the country.

BTW, when a member gets personal in a NO personal debate...I block said member. Bye