The important thing is not the specific questions, but the serious and sustained attempt.

Okay.

plato's republic is about as possible as utopia. always has been; always will be.

Was there once a movie called "True Lies"? I'll look it up.

Yes, there was. It was an action/comedy and it starred Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jamie Lee Curtis. [en.wikipedia.org]

@callmedubious the point is not that Plato's republic could happen, but the reading provides numerous applicable lessons.

@irascible true lies are those lies that we tell ourselves in order to deal with reality. We tell them to ourselves repeatedly, so that eventually they become true to us.

@irascible the concept changed my life as I began to seek out and try to remove them from my life

What I am swaying is that we all need to be reflective about who we are, what makes us whawe are, and what effects we have on others. Do not put word in my mouth. t

@wordywalt That's not what you said above. You said that if we didn't ask ourselves your questions we are adrift and manipulable.

@CeliaVL yup, that's what was posted, and I found it elitist & offensive......

Do not put words into my mouth. What I said in different words is that we all need to ponder who we are, what our purpose is in life, and what impacts we have on others. Too many people do not do that.

@wordywalt No one needs to do this, I understand you want them too as you wish to live in an enlightened world. I do too. But people have to want it. They have no requirement or need to. We as a species do not even need to exist. We wish to or not. Some of us not and kill ourselves. As someone else mentioned the world is ruled by and large by very unenlightened people. Power corrupts. And all the enlightenment and self awareness in the world never stopped a bullet once fired.

@Quarm You are right. People have to feel the need to do it. No they don't have to just to exist. But, they will live much fuller and richer lives if they do.

@wordywalt Maybe but as someone who has lived both sides of the divide here in the US there is equal meaning on both sides. It is those who judge others whom they do not know who are wrong. A rancher, farm hand, black smith, maid, cook, all can find find enlightenment in a job well done then a doctor, lawyer, teacher, scientist. And if someone finds there peace in the Bible rather then the Science text more power to them. Its the ones on both sides who feel the need to control others that are I think the problem.

@wordywalt says who, you elitist?? Some of us are busy actually living, maybe even trying hard to stay alive, while you and your navel-gazing produce Nothing, not even an effect.
Talk about trying to control people.........pot, meet kettle.

Or, maybe we & our 2 year old, need to avoid being murdered by our spouse. I'm Kinda a bit busy for navel-gazing, ya know?

@AnneWimsey yeah little distractions like that. survival looms large on some folks' priorities list for some strange reason. it is hard to contemplate the meaning of life when you are frantically trying to make sure you even HAVE a life.

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@MissKathleen All you know is what right now is happening to you. For me the only reason I am still here is a sense of very twisted humor and a stubborn wish to give a great big fuck you to all the haters out there.

"Morality? Stay out of jail. Stay alive and stick with your friends and family." Well said sir!

That is right. And, I will live by it.

@wordywalt do you realize that politicians, lawyers, etc, would say the same things that a philosopher would say? It's all a matter of one's perspective... What's right for you isn't right for all... Think about that...

I think Maslow's hierarchy of need has some merit in this context. It does seem to me there is an effort to keep working people on the lower levels of this hierarchy by restricting pay and benefits. In someways I think this defies logic. Why should cooks and janitors be paid so little when they are the ones that free up time and space for others to accomplish greater things?

Why does it seem that human social systems always require a monarchy of one kind or another. If all people really are equal, why do our social systems insist that some are more equal than others?

Sorry, I don't have any answers. I just have a lot of questions that seem similar to yours.

@Normanbites The one maddening thing about Maslow's theory is that those higher up are able to look "down" and see the plight and struggles of those in the lower part of the pyramid...you would think that being able to do so would make them more likely to help pull them up so that they, too, can attain "enlightenment"...however, it doesn't seem to be that way...instead, as you said, pushing them down or keeping them down is the tendency..it is totally illogical...being higher up in the chain does not mean a person is elevated to do good...or perhaps, which is my theory, they only think they are higher up and need to be exposed as frauds...I don't think people are equal...I do think they are capable of being equal...but there are plenty who do not wish for them to get to that point...

@thinktwice ,
to be a little more concise: most ppl are assholes..
in cave man days the strong brute would control the rest. nowadays it is the pencil-necked geeks who decide the standard of living for avg hard working ppl.
and most of them are a bunch of despicable parasitic bastards.

@callmedubious hmmm...I think most of the theories out there are simply to try to explain human behavior into neat pigeon holes when there are plenty of exceptions to the rules...I think it also depends on your personal experiences and outlook on life...I personally don't think most are assholes...perhaps easily influenced or under educated...I would have an equal concern if brute force ruled society ...I am not sure if I totally understand your description of who you think are the parasitic bastards...corporate types?

@thinktwice One character from history that drives me nutz is Voltaire. Generally I don't like the guy. But his quotes make me go "hmmmmm" .... this conversation brings to mind this quote; "The comfort of the Wealthy depends on an abundance of the poor."

@Normanbites yes...but he went against norms especially when it concerned religion and a lot of the quotes people banter around are taken out of context...I think those philosophers that survived the test of time did so for a reason...what they had to say can still be applied even today...excellent quote...apropos to this conversation for sure...thanks, BTW...wonderful chat today...

@callmedubious most people are NOT assholes, You are though......

@AnneWimsey ??? I think maybe you misread what he said? I thought he was agreeing to people who have an opportunity to help others and don't are assholes...do you disagree with that?

@thinktwice I got nothing like that from his post, it was simply claiming that since I have done little or no navel-gazing, I have wasted my life. I saw Nothing about helping others, in fact the opposite......

@AnneWimsey He was responding to my post above in which I said I often wondered why those higher in the hierarchy did the opposite of helping...but you see what you want...it is not my business to interpret for you or to defend him...apologies...

@thinktwice ,
yes corporate types. the US is ruled by a corporatocracy.

@AnneWimsey ,
we don't need to read each other. i'll make it easy.

@Normanbites Could be worth engaging with the social philosophy of Marx and Weber. Pretty good at describing stratification and how it works and why

That is why so many lives simply do not make a difference.

@wordywalt my life has made a bunch of difference (not all good) Without ANY navel-gazing claptrap.

@wordywalt that is the most arrogant thing i've read in the last five minutes at least. some lives don't make a difference? maybe they don't make a difference to YOU. they may very WELL make a difference to some loved ones, and who is to say that that difference doesn't MAKE the difference between someone's becoming a world-renowned scientist or a bum? how can you even contemplate saying that some people's lives don't make a difference?

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how could you possibly put any meaning into your existence? could you put any more meaning in you life than an ant.
it's all a big cosmic joke. what meaning are you going to derive from that?

I did not say that you did it all wrong. Circumstances can bear so heavily on us that we sometimes do not have the time or energy to focus on these questions. But, when times improve ...?

I applaud your strength and resilience. I only wish I had survived some challenges with more $$$.

A lot of us did it "all wrong". Not many of us "chose" parents who could offer good guidance and example. So we can only rely on our own resourcefulness and some of the same thing that brought us our parents, "luck". It brings me compassion for others in more dire straights to keep this in mind.

I've been on a similar path and I know that while I contributed to the outcome, a lot of it was still just being in the right place at the right time with the right insight and resources. I'm glad your journey is turning out well.

@Serenityseeker yeah, "enough" money is WONDERFUL!

I feel like we both have experienced crazy things in life and no I guess we did do it wrong but screw that guy ‍

it is actually arrogance-based thought. look above to where he says that some people don't make a difference and then tell me it is anything but arrogant.

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@genessa I have been accused of that. I bear that load. It's logical to believe that everyone and everything matters but to what degree?

@IAJO163 why "logical"? Stuff is mostly random, from where I stand.

@IAJO163 to what degree to WHOM? "matters" is subjective. you can't determine the degree to which anything or anyone matters to anyone but yourself, unless someone tells you how much it/s/he matters to him/her, and even then, how do you quantify it? you just can't say someone does or does not matter. (i mean, in a certain context you can. for example, i don't matter to donald trump. cats don't matter to climate change. but just matters, no context? nope. sorry.)

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