@Kc2222 it is the kind of fuel that explodes in your face. justice is served by passion but it has to be tempered with a cooler head too. hatred can poison everything.

g

@Kc2222 who said anything about being submissive? are hatred or submission the ONLY two choices? and how did those hatred-fueled revolutions work out, if they were ONLY hating? cake, anyone?

every parent and every parented child needs to know that anger and hatred are not the same.

g

Facts.

@Kc2222 parents who are deeply religious are going to be the hardest to put into their proper perspective...but, how they believe is not what is required for the children! Everyone is untitled to believe what he/she can believe...

when I get that response, I give them this

@Kc2222 He truly believes that his behavior comes from his walk with Christ and doesn't realize that we are essentially programmed by our DNA to be the kind of people we are. Religious beliefs hold very little sway with our true natures.

Yes!!!

This ^^

@Kc2222 an? Try a shitload. Religion is only the vehicle, not the fuel.

@Kc2222 or idiocy, or prejudice, or resources, or land, or religion, or or or. We use lots of excuses to be abhorrently shitty to one another.

I too, have had people cut off contact with me because I am secular. Kinda sad. I am just very grateful to live in Minneapolis, which is quite liberal. I feel for people who live in areas where the fundies are power hungry and abusive.

@SKH78 ditto!

@Kc2222 Trust that the freedom to not give a shit what anyone else thinks does not happen overnight.
It takes years, and conscious cultivating to get there, and be prepared to get
a lot of pushback from the ones who are most threatened by it.
However, once you are there, you are free.

@Donotbelieve THIS is why we are "us"!!!!

@Kc2222 You just make up your mind to do it. The "weight of the world" is still going to be there, you just won't have the additional burden of what others think to drag you down.
It's really not that hard, just takes a conscious effort. You have to remind yourself, every day, that what anyone else thinks about how you conduct your life, really doesn't matter.

Sometimes, you have to tell people that while they are entitled to their opinions, they don't have any right to tell you how to live.
If they choose to be alienated, that's on them.
Toxic people don't have a right to be in your life. You either allow them to
remain, or you don't. Their relationship to you is irrelevant. Even if they are
"family". They have no right to run your life.
That's YOUR choice to make.

Not an American?

@ElusiveMoby Born and raised in the American bible belt south. -- and in a religious family. But, I have had nothing to do with religion for over 50 years. I do get angry when corrupt politicians and evangelical demagogues try to mix religion and politics.

I agree with these words. Christianity is oppressive and those who swallow those lies do so knowing it makes us--their friends and family--into heathen deserving of eternal torment. At it's core, it's a religion of hate.

I consider arrogant fundies to be "swine" ... so I avoid them, do not engage with them. It is a waste of energy to attempt reasoning with them.

I do not hate them, I hate their beliefs, and in fact, had someone not "engaged" me in debate, who knows where I would be. Been there, done that. Most people think that engaging them is fruitless, because there is no immediate result . . . . but the key is to realise that there is likely to be "no immediate result" . . . there can be a later result though . . . when they start to think about the argument, and how they would go about refuting it, and realise that they can't!

I see it as a challenge . . . . they are arrogant, and they think that people will not challenge them . . . . and when someone does, and blows their asses out of the water, you can bet it makes an impression, though they will not admit it did immediately.

For me, I am outspoken about my agnosticism, and as a result, it often turns into a debate, because they cannot resist, they have to put their two cents in.

Yes, once my younger brother wanted me to attend a picnic that he and his counterparts, along with his pastor were attending, and his pastor made the mistake of starting in on it all, and in the end he became so flustered he got pissed, said to me "You are just a Nimrod!", and walked off in a huff . . . . I took it as a compliment. Likely it was a set-up that went south on them . . . ha ha.
One of the things that will really floor them is, the bible talks about how Noah took the animals, two by two, the earth was flooded, the highest mountains were below the water level, and as a result he saved them all . . . . So I am like, well, where did they get the penguins, polar bears, and, how did they manage to gather animals that are endemic to only specific areas? (you can actually find lists of such animals by using Google search) You can also take that argument to the MATH zone, because the bible lists the dimensions of the Ark, and it is far to small to house the number of species that are know to exist today . . . . and christians are usually extremely ignorant when it comes to applying math to things like this.

Ha ha . . . well, at my age, I have had a lot of time to think things like that over, that, I suppose, is one of the reasons you will find more older people who are agnostic or atheist! I have googled a lot of things that help me against them . . . . As for the math thing, I just sat down and figured it out . . . . then saved it if I ever needed to post it . . . . It goes as follows . . .

Maybe christians just are not very good at math . . . .
.
The largest study of life forms ever recently estimated that there are 1 TRILLION species on Earth.
[sciencealert.com]
.
OK, so there are about 1,000,000,000,000 species on the earth. If 90% of these are insects, and we consider them to be all very small, (which we know they are not), we could say that each pair, in order to fit on the "ARK" would need 4 square inches for two of them, plus their food for more than 40 days (Actually I think it was about a year, but we will go with just 40 days just to give the bible thumpers a chance, it supposedly rained for 40 days). Since 12 inches squared = 144 cubic inches, 144 cubic inches / 4 cubic inches = 36 per square foot. We know that, the insect population is about 80 - 90% of the entire 1,000,000,000,000 species, so making a conservative estimate, we will say it is 90%. 1,000,000,000,000 90% = 900,000,000,000 insects. 900,000,000,000 insects / 36 insect per square foot = 25,000,000,000 square foot needed to house all of these insects, and their food. Now the animals. 1,000,000,000,000 10% = 100,000,000,000 animals. We will again be conservative, and say that each animal requires only 3 cubic feet living space and three cubic foot for 40 days supply of food. 9 cubic feet total for each pair of species. They say the average size is actually that of a sheep, which would be more like 9 cubic feet for the two sheep alone. So, 100,000,000,000 animals x 9 cubic feet = 900,000,000,000 cubic feet required to house them. Now we will take the total cubic feet required for the insects and the total for the animals and add them together. 25,000,000,000 square feet + 900,000,000,000 square feet = 925,000,000,000 square feet needed on the whole "ark". (We will not even count the space needed for the humans, breathing space for all of the animals, and space needed for the structure of the "ark" itself.)
Now the dimensions of the "ark" are well known, as listed in the 2000 year-old book of bull shit. The length of the ark - 300 cubits, its breadth 50 cubits, and its height 30 cubits". This is equivalent to a length of 450 feet, a breadth of 75 feet and a height of 44 feet (assuming an 18" cubit); or 500 Feet, 83 feet and 49 feet (if it was the Egyptian 20" cubit). (We will use the larger size, just to give the bible thumpers a better chance) 500 x 83 x 49 gives 2,033,500 cubic feet. But wait, we needed 925,000,000,000 cubic feet! That is 454,880 times more space needed than the "ark" provided! And, we did not calculate for breathing space, space for humans, food for the humans or animals, or internal structure of the ark itself! So, please tell me, bible thumpers, what did "god" do, shrink the fucking animals?
If the Earth were flooded for a full year, as the bible claims, they would have had to pack up all of the plants too, because they would never have survived submersed under water and without sunlight for a year, since sunlight only penetrates ocean water to a depth of less than half a mile . . . . If the flood killed all of the animals that were not on the ark, and they were later fossilized, why is it that we do not see all of the same types of animals in one fossilized layer, when we instead see them separated based on how long ago they existed? If there are one trillion species on earth, how could one family feed that many animals in one day?

[talkorigins.org]

Then regarding the species that are unique to specific areas:
To all the supporters of the biblical story of Noah and the ark . . . . . So . . . where in the fuck did they get the penguins, Tasmanian devils, the pink land iguanas, the tarsiers, the Javan rhinoceros, and the kangaroos? I'm sure they traveled all the way to the Galapogos islands, Indonesia, Southeast Asia, and all of the other places too, huh? They likely did not know that most of these animals even existed when they wrote their 2000 year-old book of bull shit. What, god fucking parachuted them onto the ark or something? And then fucking returned them to the other side of the Earth? You'll have to think up a serious bull shit story for that one . . . . or maybe for once you will accept the fact that you have been bullshitted way beyond the pale of believability. Stop supporting and feeding the parasitic child molesters with your alms and naiveté.
[treehugger.com]

Feel free to copy or plagiarize it all at will, ha ha.

To learn how to deal with these folks you have to think of it kind of like a sword fight or boxing . . . . if you match someone who has never done it before, with someone who is experienced, the result will be a foregone conclusion . . . . but you only gain experience by jumping in the ring . . . . . If you see it as a challenge, it puts you in the absolute best mindset!!!

@Kc2222 New England Churches aren't so bad as that. No racism. Homophobia depended on the priest you were dealing with and word got out - so people avoided those churches. lol

I don't think people would put up with that at all now. But who knows? The Vatican keeps coming up with bat shit crazy statements. Most folks who attend here - don't support the Vatican very much.

It's way it's easier to separate the institution from the people.

I wish the people would just leave the institution however. Way healthier.

Religion is the opiate of the masses, as Marx said, but hate and fear are the tools of the elite to divide, conquer and control the masses. As long as most people lack critical thinking skills, these tools will continue to work.

@TomMcGiverin More people should read Machiavelli.

@Piratefish Seems like most of those that read it are those interested in doing evil.

@Piratefish Reading Machiavelli always makes me feel like I need to clean out the inside of my skull.

@CommonHuman But at least reading him has educated you on just how Americans have become so polarized along largely nonexistent lines.

@Kc2222 They did not lose their lives to religion, they lost their lives to people that used religion to advance their own agenda. It's like I don't blame the catholic church for molesting children, I blame the indivual priests, but I blame the church for the coverup. Anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-gambling, anti-alcohol are personal agendas that mascarade as religious tennents. Marx I believe said it best, religion is the opiate of the masses, the new nuts it is the cocaine of the masses.

@Kc2222 I always tell people to take the teachings that they can relate to, and throw away the ones that they don't agree with. Religion served a need in the early history of mankind, to teach basic social more's and provide a social framework. That time has passed. Most religions today are still based on Bronze Age teachings. A book that might explain it better if it is still in print is :The Sabertooth Curriculum" It explains how people hold on to old outdated ideas because they are comfortable with them, even though they no longer apply to anything they are currently dealing with. It's still in print 65th anniversary edition on Amazon.

agree

@Kc2222
Complex question. In general I see religion as a negative force for a world that is increasingly secular and needs secular answers as opposed to religious answers. But I also see students who need some sort of glue to keep their lives together.

Those that rely on religion (fundamental or extrememly staunch) will most likey not be directing policy in the future. This present environment is going to rebound on christianity and Islam in a negative way. the swing of the pendulum.

@Kc2222 np. I was an anti-theist for many years. But then I figured out that it wasn't the entire concept of religion at fault - just the use by bad people. I still lose sight of that often where evangelicals are concerned. but calling all religion harmful is just like calling all muslims bad because of 9/11. religion is just a very powerful tool that like other tools can be used poorly.

@Kc2222 The only thing we actually control is the things that we allow to control us. Some of those things you just have to let go and watch the universe roll as it will. I find the yin and yang comforting for just that reason. The bad will only go on so long until the good swings around ... and the good will let up soon so don't dawdle. Things in the universe tend to autocorrect, but the corrections overshoot.

@Kc2222 well you are here now. Good luck to you!

@Kc2222 This is a good community. There are likely to be Thinkers in the area you live in. If you seek out Thinkers, you will find them.

@Kc2222 I feel like I'm forcing it. Just want it to be natural.

@Kc2222 No. Just trying not to force it on people. I don't want to get to a point where I become the guy they say yeah, we get it, you're an atheist.

@Kc2222 Couldn't agree more. Believers like believing what they believe (I don't think I've ever used the term believe in three out of six words in a sentence before . It's comforting, and the thought of living a lie can be devastating, so I just leave it alone. But you're right, we shouldn't let the outlandish stuff go.
Sounds tough dealing with your family, but at least you're just trying to learn facts to challenge them with. I'm lucky. Most of my family is religious but they never force it on me or guilt me. We never have those awkward conversations.
And yes, parents forcing it on kids really irks me too. They do deserve more. So unfair to their malleable little minds. It's also the primary reason there aren't more of us out there.

@Kc2222 Well hopefully this community works out for you.
I understand the the frustration/hatred but no reason to be unreasonable about religion. Just remember, people in this community and other atheists around the world are the forward thinkers. We're changing a culture. No, a species! - that's been a religious path for centuries. We have to encounter believers to do that, and we will. But we should be grateful we learned the truth when we did and don't have to lead deluded lives. That keeps my frustrations at bay. So you keep that flood of bitterness at bay too! And yes, continue to keep people who aren't good for you - even the ones we like - at arm's length.