Nah, I'm a collectivist. I tend to believe the best systems are anti-hierarchical collectives that use some form of modified consensus.
I'm not a fan of electoral politics because I think their unimaginative, and consistently move in the direction of more government, more business, more growth, more laws, more regulations, more prisons, more capitalism, more industry, more hierarchy and greater and greater consolidation of power and wealth, etc. I think we have too much of these things already.
Also I think the idea of majority rules inherently marginalize certain minorities.not that we truly have democracy, I mean, you don't need 51% of the population, only a majority of votes in each riding, and that's only of the people who did vote... but even if you had a more direct democracy you'd still have issues like abortion being banned in communities where the Christian right is the majority, Muslims and other immigrants being banned or marginalized,, etc, cause the xenophobes made up the majority.
No, I think we can do better than electoral democracy. I think we need to be more creative, and that the most interesting ideas come from politics outside of party politics

Wearing brown face was by far not the worst thing JT has done.
But yes he's not even close to as terrible as Trump. No argument there

I disagree. Lots of people should not vote. People should vote because they have taken the time to understand just what they are voting for.

I'm glad I'm not an American either.

But don't mistake my argument againt SHAMING THISE WHO CHOOSE NOT TO VOTE for apathy or ignorance. There are many ways to create of affect change. Many that you probably arent doing, that other people are doing.

@PolyComrade ‘Many that I’m probably not doing’....? Name a few. Unless you’re building a private network of ..mounted police, how are you going to effectively redirect your government?

What I ‘get’ from you is the same feeling I do from others proclaiming the same. Afraid they’ll be married to the policies or mistakes of the candidate they vote for, thus having to explain or support that candidate, they find it easier to shrug their responsibilities, claim something like, “they're all crooks,” sit on their complacent asses while the rest of us do the heavy lifting. No points from me ~

@Varn name a few, ok.
Prison abolishion work, prison reform, prisoner support work
Food Not Bombs
Running a collective space
Being part of a coop
Antivivisection activism
The stuff SHAC did
Tree sits
Blockades
Indigenous solitary work
Economic sabotage
Various forms of direct action, both clandestine/militant as well as above ground
Writing, publishing, public speaking
Organizing community gatherings that are political
Living communally
Animal liberations
Sustainability and Self sufficiency living
Creating alternative economies
Frontline antipovert work
Harm reduction work
Addictions counselling, recovery treatment
Ecosystem restoration, soil remediation
IWW union activity
Cop watch

I could go on... You might not agree with some of these ways or not see value in this work, but the person who's doing this work probably does, and may not agree with or see value in what you do. I personally have done a number of things on this list.

You and i never agree.
I am anticapitalist, anti state, a collectivist, anti military, pro Palestinian, and anticolonial. Every party wants more capitalism, more industry, more state power, more military,and all are allies to Israel. In Canada there are no major parties that support the Palestinians, and the 2 that have a chance of winning this election are fighting about which is the fastest way to force the pipeline through indigenous communities that are resisting it.

@PolyComrade how & where did Palestine get into this thread? What exactly is your agenda here? Discourage people from voting so we get 4 more years of Orange Horror?

@AnneWimsey I never said you, or anyone else shouldn't vote. If you believe voting creates positive change then you should vote. I only said you shouldn't look down on those who choose other strategies for change who are skeptical of electoral politics.
And the USA isn't the only country you know. I don't live in the USA. There's an election happening here too. We have those as well.
As for where did Palestine come into it, as a point of contention to show there is no party that I can agree with running in my country since all of them support the Israeli occupation and genocide of Palestine.

@PolyComrade if you think any candidate, anywhere, is going to agree 100% with everything you want, I guess you need to run for office, because that's the Only way that will happen. Sulking like a child that doesn't get their every demand is, again, voting for the status quo. Period.

I feel this is something we need to agree to disagree. It is said for a democracy to work the majority of voters have to be literate. To me, often literacy means being aware. There are more and more issues and people getting on ballots and one cannot possibly know all the different sides. We once had a county councilman who was from a conservative, wealthy district. He knew how to play the game (yard signs, knocking on doors and so on) and was in office for 10 years. He was a Democrat running as a Republican and is known as the father of the area's growth management plan. This went totally against the property rights mentality of his district. Even our senior group AARP has said if one doesn't know about an issue/politician one should not vote for it. Flipping a coin on a vote serves no one and can do harm.

What if one lives in a country that is a dictatorship. My late partner was from Iran and at an election all the candidates were hand picked by the 'supreme leader'. We visited Viet Nam during an election cycle and it was similar. People actually refused to vote as a sort of protest. However, the people were offered incentives like meals or material goods in exchange for their votes. Elections are not simple and are getting more complicated by the day.

@JackPedigo I was talking about in Democratically run countries ...especially those in the west. There is no good reason why any country with an educated electorate shocked not require their citizens to vote...it’s almost like a legal contract between the citizenry and the executive,

@Marionville Remember, there is often a fine line between democratic and not. We have tRump as evidence. Still, even in a democratically run country there is often too much information to be able to make an informed vote. Even our voters pamphlet has pro's and con's of every issue. In order to make a viable decision one needs to be fully informed and that is often impossible.

@JackPedigo That cannot be helped...in any election there are informed and uninformed voters. If voting was restricted to only those who were fully conversant of all facts, there would be scant people qualified to vote. It’s up to the individual in first world countries with educated citizens to formulate their own opinions and vote accordingly. We can hardly set tests prior to elections to test voters competency.

@Marionville In our elections there are often people running for things a judges or some local position. I get proxy ballots all the time for board members of various organizations of which I belong few of whom I have a clue. When I worked the polls the most common question was that the person did not know about such and such an issue or person and what should they do. We always said, leave it blank. The reply was always that it will invalidate the ballot. It will not. Only placing 2 or more votes on the same item will invalidate the ballot. There are many times that it harms a democracy to vote without knowledge. This is crystal clear to me and we even had a respect Seattle Times journalist who wrote a report that the average voter is a nitwit and, from my experiences, I concur. Agree to disagree.

@JackPedigo I am only talking about General Elections...or in the case of the USA Presidential ones. As far as I’m aware the countries which have mandatory voting laws, only apply them to elections for national government.

@Marionville Still in the presidential election there are other people running for various offices as well as issues. After all, look what being ignorant about a certain politician got us. And it happened in 2000 as well and we are still paying for that one.

@JackPedigo What is your solution to low numbers turning out to vote then?

@Marionville I have no solution. Maybe more tRump's is the solution. People take the time to vote when things get critical. The Dem's took the house by a large margin because people wanted a sea change from 2 years of conservatives misrule and crime. When things are going smoothly people don't feel the need to get out and vote. Here, we now have mail-in votes (as do several states). We used to have to bring the ballot to a special box or pay for postage. Now it is postage free so more people will participate. Make things easy and more will vote.

No. The pricks that voted those asshats in are the ones who shouldn't complain

@PolyComrade "Those pricks" aren't complaining. They are stupid enough to believe that he is doing a great job!

Then we need to educate them!

No. Just no.
There is an arrogance is assuming people who make a different choice than you are doing so because they are the uninformed one. This is the logic behind evangelical prostulatizing.

People who don't vote aren't all lazy or ignorant. There are many deep and thoughtful arguments against participation in electoral systems. People who choose not to vote do so for many different reasons.

@PolyComrade Then there’s an ignorance in those assuming national change will happen through lack of participation. And No, as well - this is the logic of civics!

As many have said, people who don’t vote, run for office, or promote a candidate have no right to complain about the political results - period

@Varn putting the word period at the end of your statement doesn't make it any less false, even if you put it in bold. There are many ways to participate in political life and economics, and not all involve political parties. There are politics outside of that narrow scope, and a lot of caring dedicated people giving tons of energy towards building a better society who's politics are non partisan.
Have you ever bothered to look into what the arguments against participation in electoral politics are? Or did you just unthinking dismiss those people without even knowing who they are or what they think in the first place?

@PolyComrade Hey guy - I’ve given up on you Just X’ed out your responses… Oh Canada

@Varn good for you. Can't have people with differeopinions disrupting your bubble like that.

Good way to end up with president pence. No thanks ~

@Varn Im voting issues not party. Criminal Justice reform is one of the most important to me. Yes Mike Pence is terrible, but Biden isnt much better from the viewpoint of African-Americans...

@AlfonseCapone It’s nearly impossible for me to believe people can’t put the puzzle pieces together with regard to ‘our parties,’ or voting in general… Occasionally, to stomach it, I’ll just mutter to myself - they get what they deserve. Honesty, I’m doing well ..so if segments of our society can’t figure it out ..too bad ~

@Varn Yup to bad I guess...

@Varn As an Individual im doing fine also. So If trump gets another four years in office I really don't care...

Oh I see you are from Canada. The thing is here in the US our president is having success at actually driving us closer to extinction and his supporters are angry gun toting science deniers.. And they VOTE!

We don't know what we are doing? Really.......? Bad mood today? You know, there are Psychologists here reading this.

@PondartIncbendog read it again, maybe you'll get it right the second time around. That's not what I said

How dare you suggest we, who not only hunt for candidates (as Atheists go nowhere in US elections), beat the streets, donate time & money - as well as give away our time & energy on a daily basis to more positive causes than this guy can count - suggest we’re not doing enough!

No one candidate or party are going to reflect any single individual's personal views; that’s how Democracy - if not society in general, works. Even if you were that candidate, you’d still be expected to consider the best interests of those who elected you.

Voter Apathy is promoted in ‘my nation’ by the powerful industrialists. Realizing they’re only 1% (if that), they pump money into deliberate campaigns designed to turn off voters. With that, they promote hot-button issues (god, guns & gays) to ignite the ignorant who elect their (Republican) political surrogates. While ‘Progressive purists’ stay home ..making compost.. Regressives march lock-step to the polls to elect the likes of a ‘trump.’

Not only was I at our local parties packed climate change meeting last night, heading off afterwards to strategize (with beer & tacos), I can and will soon vote in our state and local elections. But not only will I vote, I also plan to volunteer with two separate reforesting efforts lead by our attendees. You do both! ..with the least effort being that of voting. Gee… voting, half an hour; reforesting, till I drop

There have been some excellent responses here.. They give me hope.

If you believe voting is a good effective way to create change, great you should vote. Just don't look down on or shame those who don't believe that. It's simple. I'm not telling people to not vote. I am saying that many who don't vote actively choose not to because they have in-depth critiques of that type of action and they do other work instead that they see as more California, and therefore it is arrogant and disrespectful to treat them as the problem. The vast majority of people I personally have known who don't vote or spoil their ballots are community organizers, activists, and people doing a ton to affect change. A large portion of the people I've personally known who shame others for not voting or accuse tgem of being the reason for our social problems often do little beyond voting or maybe recycling. I've personally seem people work so hard, so consistently doing frontline work be told they were the problem because they didn't vote and it was all their fault, by people who have never volunteered an hour in their life

@PolyComrade As listed above, I do more than vote. But my vote is the culmination of all efforts. If, by knowing and appreciating my behavior, attitude or knowledge, others follow my suggestion they vote for a cause or candidate, my influence has grown..

At said meeting, our party chair announced the number of our parties registered county voters who have not voted in the last two elections. Made us sick.. We’d found, ran, and gave them the opportunity to vote for one of the best. He lost, by fewer votes than those lazy fucks having sat it out… Thank you very much?

You’ve an apparent fear, or resentment of ‘arrogance.’ It’s not arrogant to advocate - and it’s not arrogant to point the finger at those responsible for our/ your nation ..or the world’s woes. Down here, we battle Republicans, pointing them out as necessary. But if those supposedly ‘on our side,’ don’t lift a finger to help… WTF? Are we supposed to assume ‘they’re doing something positive’ behind our backs that’s going to ‘save the world?’ ..pet them on the head like the three-year-old’s they resemble..? ...while swaths of life on our planet are extinguished because politicians representing True Arrogance march back to the capital speaking for us all?

Is it not Arrogant to dismiss the process by which we govern ourselves … because ‘you’ have a better one? Perhaps you’d better let us in on it

I think you’d better find and run with a better crowd! Purists, Anarchists and assorted Extremists are not the answer to the world's problems. ‘Spoiling their ballots’ … did they run? You’ve a Parliamentary System up there, don’t you? Why don’t the malcontents you’ve described form a party of their own? ..but then they’d have to get along with another party in order to make a coalition in which to govern ….and they don’t play well with others. Close?

Down here, it’s happening! The Primaries are where we duke it out. Not pretty, and extremely expensive (I helped put Elizabeth Warren on our State Presidential Ballot!). But having allowed evil (greedy industrialists, organized religions and social misfits) to win, thus make the rules, we’ve a lot to take back.. But it’s not going to happen when our too-few registered to vote, become far less by not voting … no mater what their reason. Evil wins, again.

I am political because I am Atheist. I picketed the pope before joining my party. I’ve done my homework, too. Giving those a pass who haven’t, or lack the sense to understand the privilege, now responsibility they have, will never set well with me. They are social slackers, at best ~

@Varn
For 40 years now ANTIFA and ARA have been disruptive to the ability of neo-nazis and other hate groups to organize themselves, fighting the spread of their far right ideas. Meanwhile liberals spent most of those decades actively pretending that racists barely existed and denying they could ever get any power anyways.

Did you ever stop to consider these Anti fascist were fighting the same although right evangelical agenda that your do concerned about stopping? Different tactics, same enemy.

The people counter-protesting the antiabortion nuts are another example, and sure some of tgem vote, some run for office, but there's also many who don't. Many anarchists form the frontlines of these movements. But you just dismiss them because they have different ideas and tactics, because your tactics have worked so damn well.

Meanwhile billions of dollars are spent deciding which billionary will be allowed to represent each party, either of which will kill brown skinned kids in the middle East if elected and put the economy before the environment like always. And you have the gawl to suggest that's an effective use of time.