A simple syllogism- if evil exists there cannot be a god both benevolent and all powerful
Some say God gives us a choice - so he permits evil- not benevolent
Evil as an entity is a religious concept, it is not an entity and shouldn’t be used as a noun. There is good and bad ...bad is the opposite of good, we can understand the difference. Evil should only be used as an adjective to describe acts or people which cause intentional harm beyond any acceptable human behaviour. God is nonexistent, and therefore neither controls or prevents any human behaviour good or bad.
@Allamanda Yes,.,thank you...I’ve changed it!
Why do people post this stuff? We already know there isn't a god. Why do people like to post stuff still asking questions?
Whatever your question is... The answer is, THERE IS NO GOD!
You don't know that, Einstein.
It's not a bad idea to exchange ideas here that we can use to refute things we see, hear and read OFF this site.
New members regularly join this site. A new member may ask for confirmation for concept duscussed prior to when they joined. I see nothing wrong with supporting them where they are in their process without shaming them for bring up a concept that has been btought up before.
@RussRAB I completely agree.
@Storm1752 @RiverRick
If there is a god(s) it provides no evidence for itself, and seems to actively hide, does not interfere or intervene in any way shape or form suggesting it either cannot or will not do so.
In any such case it's existence or nonexistence become inconsequential and leaves us with the choice of a deity that either does not exists or may as well not exist, rendering the phrase
"there is no actual god or apposite god. " perfectly legitimate
Rick I quite agree with you- however that post of mine quickly got my level up to where I can communicate with some of the ladies on the site- so it served that purpose well!
Until the Jewish tribe adopted and developed monotheism the gods worshiped were mirrors of men with all their faults. The god of the old testament was invented to support the actions of the Jewish people and destroy anyone else. The god of the new testament is a more benign character but it must be difficult and embarrassing for Christians to have to explain away the older version.
IS the "new testament god" more benign? In some ways maybe, but when you really think about it, not so much:
"Forces son to kill himself
Commands us to be perfect
Insists we suck 'cause we can't perform miracles
Tells us to drop everything and become a Bum for Christ
"Reveals" our every normal human desire, impulse and instinct is evil. Even THINKING about them punches our ticket to hell.
Announces the Earth as we know it is hopelessly doomed (so why try?).
Advises family is meaningless and even bad, as are all human relationships. To the sword with them, he declares.
*Countless other gems of "wisdom" flow from his perfect, pursed lips proving he really, really loves us.
evil? please. evil is incredibly subjective. what's evil to you may be life as normal in other cultures.
I agree. Those are my thoughts on the concept of evil as well...
I believe the error is and has always been in thinking that God is an individual, conscious being. The answer is obvious if you change your definition of God. New Thought religions believe god is a dispassionate principle or process. Our thoughts and actions bring about logical and usually predictable results. Some results are simply undesirable. Is an undesirable outcome just a natural result of something like a disruptive weather event or was their a negative intention behind it? There is nothing in nature that we could define as evil. Evil is conceived and perceived in the human mind and is usually created by negative, egoistic emotional responses to fear, anger, etc. Satan is just a metaphor for the human ego. Therefore all evil comes from Satan. "Get behind me Satan." Finally, the Divine Principle or Process is benevolent, without it everything reduces to chaos.
Must agree. If the process where not benign, or creative, nothing would have ever commenced. If you take away order and structure chaos must ensue.
maaaaaaaaa, they are posting it again!!!
Guilty as charged LOL
So, can you now let go of your fascination with Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, some "gawd", and get on with the living of your precious only life?
No one seems to be able to define evil in empirical terms, only through the lens of ethics and morality which vary from culture to culture and age to age.
If there is no empirical definition how can it be declared that any ‘god’ (which also requires empirical definition), ‘permits’ evil?
I propose that the individual knows their own ethical/moral values and so the whole question is a negation of responsibility in order to transfer their social transgressions on to a metaphysical being.
@Allamanda Exactly. Ethics/morality are only empirical under given conditions. To be able to quantify them, and therefore measure them, they need clear parameters, just as the ‘god’ that, according to the model, states these parameters, requires definition.
Individual morality cannot be used to define these parameters universally, only locally, because they are parenthetical. I.e George says this, but John says that.
While trying to sort evil from good in different belief systems, I search for those things that are similarly defined across several beliefs. Most folk, regardless of belief, see murder as evil. The definition of murder may vary, ie abortion and capital punishment, which is where discussion across systems is crucial. But by and large the majority of the planet would agree that shooting a baby in a crib is a heinous act. Yet many of us watched as Hawkeye, in a MASH episode, came to terms with a mother who smothered her crying baby to ensure the safety of a group in hiding. Circumstance and intent are important factors when trying to access what is evil or good.
@SAMae Quite right. So there is no universal agreement on good and evil, however there is a point which commences the continuum.
Is that, then, the agreed empirical point from which to gauge all other behaviour?
Can we say this is where evil begins?
I absolutely do not believe there are any gods and see no reason to think any exist; but, should there be one, or more, I see no reason to think it is in any way benevolent. It either created evil, is disinterested in evil, or is impotent to do anything about evil--in any of these cases, it would not be worthy of being called a loving god and is certainly not all good and benevolent god.
re: "Some say God gives us a choice - so he permits evil- not benevolent."
Some choice: fear, love and worship me--and in the correct manner--or else endure my wrath! This god is absolutely not benevolent.
Acknowledging that there IS a gawd, are we?
Just for the sake of discussion, what if this life is just a very convincing movie. And when the movie is over, we walk out totally unharmed. What seemed like evil was just a portrayal of evil - nobody was actually murdered or cheated or abused. What if it’s just God’s training film?
I’m asking this just as a philosophical pondering of the rationale you use here to justify the goodness or non-goodness of God. For the record, I see no reason to think literal gods exist either. I just like examining ideas.
@AnneWimsey: Absolutely not. I don't think for a moment that any gods exist. But, I do not claim to have all of the knowledge of the universe. I can simply look at the way things are and deduce that if some such being does exist (and again I in no way think one does) it is not a benevolent being/energy force with consciousness (or whatever).
@AnneWimsey, @skado : I would have to say that this god is evil for making us think we are real and causing us to endure so much pain and suffering. And, for what? Apparently its own amusement.
@skado : I think a lot of people feel that way about school. I don't know of anyone who is glad they or a loved one had or has cancer, or lost a child, or became paralyzed etc. Oh, some who found "God" through tragedy will say differently, but you cannot tell me that they would choose to go through it if given the choice before hand. Calling it "god's plan" is simply a coping mechanism to try to make sense out of senseless tragedy. This god's plan, that included so much needless suffering, was one of my big issues with the belief in a "loving" god.
A monotheism God who is creater of the universe must be responsible for all elements in the universe. Even if we attribute evil to a Satan like entity, God is responsible for creating Satan and reating whatever elements Satan made evil from. God would also necessarily have allowed Satan's existence as well as the effects of the evil Satan created.
If there is a god, his greatest creation is Liam Hemsworth. Am I right ladies?
Surely you are forgetting John Barrowman and that is before you start considering the ladies.
@LenHazell53 nope. Gotta stick with Liam. Or his brother in a pinch
Deists think "god" created everything, set it in motion, then withdrew to let things unfold as they will.
Not benevolent or malicious, not a personal deity who answers prayers or intervenes in any other way.
So free will is very much in play, not predeterminism...maybe this "god" doesn't know what's going to happen any more than we do.
After all, how WOULD "god" know the future? Why do people assume that? Because it knows "everything?" Why do we assume THAT?
People ascribe all kinds of powers to "god" it might not possess. And maybe deny it ones it MAY (like interdimensional, multi-universal, transformational, etc.).
"God" the word carries with it so much baggage it makes a refugee from the dating wars seem like a newborn babe.
I always wonder why the corollary argument is often neglected. If a god is perfect, the creator of everything, and the source of everything, then either A) everything that appears to obviously be imperfect is somehow perfect, or B) the perfect creator god doesn't exist. Which seems more correct? An obvious contradiction that can't be true, or an obvious conclusion based on all the evidence that is rather simple?
Zoroastrianism and by projection neo-Platonism allows for such a circumstance as well asTaoism and natural flow.
You left out the part about god being all knowing. If god is all knowing, all powerful, all loving, how can evil exist. If "he" is all knowing, "he" knows evil is going to happen before it does & can stop it. Of course where does that leave our so called "free will". If god knows it will happen & doesn't stop it, he is either not all powerful or not all loving, as apparently "he" doesn't care.
So the traditional christian notion of god is nonsense
Is God responsible for Evil?
Amos 3:6 KJV
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?
1Kings 22:23 KJV
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Kings 22:16
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
The above is not a Syllogism, as such requires two premise from which a logical conclusion can be drawn.
That which I believe you are trying to state, requires two consecutive syllogisms
If it is assumed "God" created all things
And if it is assumed "Evil" exists
Then It must be assumed that "God" created "Evil"
Therefore
If it can be assumed "God " created evil
And if it is assumed evil cannot come from the perfectly good
The creator "God" cannot be perfectly good.
yes we know. we've heard it and misattributed it before. but since there are no gods, it's kind of a moot point, isn't it? anyway, evil isn't a thing. it's a description.
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If it were a moot point there wouldn't be a site like agnostic.com
@TheoryNumber3 it is a moot point on agnostic.com. that IS where we are right now, right?
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@genessa. Why have such a site if discussion on the topic isn't warranted? It's not a recipe exchange.
@TheoryNumber3 why have a discussion if only opinions you agree with are warranted? am i forbidden to say how i feel about it? i didn't try to stop anyone from expressing themselves. i merely expressed myself. anyone who wants to beat a dead horse is welcome, just as i am welcome, i hope, to point out the horse's condition.
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@genessa Ok... I see where this is going... so if I offended you in some way, I apologize. But I still maintain that Liam Hemsworth is a god.
@TheoryNumber3 i have no idea who that is but i have looked at some guys and felt that way, however briefly )
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@genessa Google his name. Trust me