We are self-actualized; we are superior.

@GlyndonD No comment except have no fear. In your words "makes me fear".

@Mcflewster, I have fear. That's why I'm shouting. If we have a virtual theocracy, what difference does it make if there's no religious god involved? Agnostics don't want to live under a theocracy. That's what counts.

@GlyndonD fear is a tool of religionists. I have confidnce in Humans. Most powerful if everyone just stopped talking about any and every god.

@Mcflewster, fear is a tool of the government.

@GlyndonD Sad Answer - no coment on its validity.

@Mcflewster, you're kidding, right?

@GlyndonD I elect governments. Not fear them. I have no choice but to respect them or elect a better one. I fear misuse of democracy.

@Mcflewster, then you should fear that the government you elect will end up becoming a virtual theocracy that ends democracy, either by a decree fully supported by the people, or by the people being fully indoctrinated such that a democracy is redundant to what people have been conditioned to worship.

@GlyndonD You have obviously thought this out very well and naturally have been talking of the sytem in America. I have been talking of the UK situation which although parallel in some ways is so different as not to be really useful to our situations. It probably will not help you to say that I and many in UK actually fear the American systems of Religion vs Politics . Good luck and keep fighting.

@Mcflewster, I'm not well-versed in the British system, but if the US economy goes down, along with its currency, it will take down most of the world with it. And what is the risk to any society when the people realize that the government recklessly destroyed the economy? What kind of government rises from the ashes?

My forecast is that, if the government crashes the economy through a virtual default on the debt, the country and then world will quickly fall like a house of cards, being replaced with theocratic-totalitarian states. If the crash is avoided by the US curtailing its budget deficit, it might take a couple decades. I hope in that time, we can change the mentality of people such that they remove government as our superior, and our god.

No, you are a mono-theist. Your god, and cult, is the government.

Good try . . . . and when you try to explain who you think the government is, you will likely be wrong again.

Good try . . . . and when you try to explain who you think the government is, you will likely be just as wrong again. As for the claim I am a monotheist, maybe you can attempt to prove that statement too, and put that Q.E.D. after it to make it sound like you proved something when you didn't . . . . given your standards of "proof", if I adhered to that, I could prove that a purple and white polka-dotted, winged elephant that flies around the rings of Saturn with a unicorn stuffed up its ass exists and make it sound just as true by adding a Q.E.D. at the end of it.

@Archeus_Lore, for you, it doesn't matter if QED is written at the end or not -- your mind is made up, and you'll let nothing interfere with your belief system. You're set -- nothing left to consider. That's called being closed-minded. Now, keep chanting, keep repeating your mantras, and you'll feel lots better. Me and my evil words will just fade away...

Not "evil words", just bad attempts at logic.

@Archeus_Lore, all that is rejected is false, at least to the indoctrinated.

Sounds like someone who brought their religous attitudes with them, forgetting to scrap the lack of logic, made-up "facts" based on faith rather than reason, but then uses Q.E.D. as if it might impress someone.

@Archeus_Lore, or, at least, get someone's attention.

You and me.

@GlyndonD YOU, maybe.

@Storm1752, you are not part of we?

@Gwendolyn2018, some of my replies were fluff, especially when the comment was stupid.

@GlyndonD I disagree with your premises (along with just about everybody else--say something outlandish and watch the vultures circle!).
Laws: which do you take exception to?
Of course the criminal justice system makes mistakes, but it doesn't systematically punish innocent people. I'm not naive. I know there are abuses. But generally speaking it seems to work well enough.
Taxation: again, not a perfect system, and if it were up to me the money would be spent far differently with much different priorities.
But to say we shouldn't be taxed doesn't make sense.
God: your point being the government is arrogantly ACTING like it IS 'god.'
I just don't see how.
If this were a fascist authoritarian dictatorship, a 1984-Big Brother totalitarian nightmare, then yes, it'd be doing so; but it's a (deeply flawed) democracy, with a Bill of Rights sometimes trampled on but nevertheless in place, and operative.

So in short I think it is YOU who are being naive; without government, AND police (including it's abuses), AND an military (misused but indispensable), there wouldn't be much of a society, now would there?
Civilization as we know it would not exist.
What is your alternative?

@Storm1752, how many members are there in agnostic.com? And how many have replied to my post? So, ALL of the people who disagree with me are those that disagree with me. What conclusion can we draw from that?

The criminal justice system does not punish people who do not violate the law. But what about the laws? Why should government prohibit smoking a joint? They are innocent; the law is unjust. The government has made itself a god by adopting such a law. It has made itself a god by saying it is legal for it to take your money (income tax) without your permission. (A transaction tax would not have this problem.)

The Libertarian form of government does not allow the initiation of force by individuals or government. But, individuals will continue to use force, so governmental police, courts, jails, and military will be needed.

We are headed toward totalitarianis!m. It is creeping up on us. I want to stop it before it's too late.

@Gwendolyn2018, my bait-and-switch was to introduce my theory in the form of a theory proving god exists, and then throw in the idea at the end that many people are viewing their government as a god, and maybe they should reconsider that belief. It worked in sucking a lot of people in. And those that got sucked in were reacting to defend their belief, just as any Christian would. That tells you a lot. There are many True Believers out there, and they might just turn our world into a permanent totalitarian state. Look at the power that the state has acquired over the last 100 years. It's continuing, and it's going to totalitarianism if something isn't done.

And no, I'm not just kidding.

@Gwendolyn2018, one of your mantras that you use to fixate on your indoctrination?

@GlyndonD There is no such thing as a "libertarian form of government," except as a useful theory which in practice would be a complete disaster.
Why do you think, for instance, the Security and Exchange Commission exists, because people are capable of self-regulating financial transactions?
Or the EPA, because people will voluntarily preserve a environmentally critical wetland when they could sell it or develop it at maximum profit?
Or OSHA...I suppose employers will all create safe workplaces without the interfering government stepping in?
The list goes on and on.
PEOPLE (some anyway) HAVE TO BE REGULATED!
Your de-regulated world? No thanks.
And where does the big bad government get the money to regulate, among other things? US, in the form of taxes.
In fact, we should be taxing rich people and corporations MORE, so we could regulate more!
Ralph Waldo Emetson famously said, "The best form of government is no government at all, and when people are ready for it, that's the form of government they'll have."
News Flash: people ain't ready for it! Do you live under a rock or something?!?

@Storm1752, you have sucombed to the brainwashing that government is the best place to get something done. Except for reactive police and our court system, it's the worst place to get something done. And now, you say that you can justify using an income tax to take money away from one person and give to another.

Is that what is transcribed in your sacred government-religion scrolls? And there is a better way of taxing than an income tax.

You are a simpleton, so I'll stop now before a fuse is blown in your head.

I fine. I enjoy putting you in your place
You make me feel like a genius! You are so enraptured by your counterfeit, bankrupt ideology you just can't see you're blinded by it.
You have such a high regard for human beings you think for the right thing if only the evil guv'mint would get out of the way...ha! That's genuinely funny.
But I AM done with you because it's like beating up a cripple on the street, or making fun of a retarded person
Hahaha.
Have a nice life.

@Storm1752, hey -- I know exactly how you feel!

Crucifiction ?

I'm thinking the same thing, but so far he's a bit entertaining.

Ex-communication?

@Gwendolyn2018, have faith that it is the Truth.

@Gwendolyn2018 I know! I thought I would add some levity/

@dalefvictor, no, you thought you would add some sarcasm.

@Gwendolyn2018, all the facts are in front of your eyes. But if you're going to ignore them and put your head in the sand, those facts won't do you any good.

You have more faith in the government than you do in yourself. That's why you let the government take your money -- they have superior morals than you, and so they will do better with your money than what you would do. And you have more faith in goverment's morality than your neighbor's, so you let the government take his money, too. You have little faith in we the people, and yet you somehow have faith in your government to do good. Can you explain that? Makes no sense to me. And you think the government is doing good with the $trillions of dollars it takes away from citizens every year? Are you willing to say that the morality of the government as expressed in its actions is better than yours or your neighbor's?

That's a scary thought, isn't it?

@Gwendolyn2018 Thanks for your posts. I was trying to have fun. I am not as intellectually proficient as you. I call bs, you give a better explanation of his fallacies so he can learn, you should be thanked for your effort as I learned something. Also, I do not lie, I can tell a story and try to make sure people will realize it is a story. Lying is a waste of time and effort, I do not have the time and will not make the effort to keep track of lies, easier, to tell the truth, don't have to work so hard to keep everything straight. I am rambling.

@Gwendolyn2018, your critique is shallow. Try to see the forest from the trees. It's not that difficult, unless you're determined to keep your eyes closed.

@Gwendolyn2018 You are casting pearls before a swine.
@AnneWimsey You are wrestling with a pig, and the pig likes it.

If you look at how this guy responds, you can see that he is utterly, deliriously, desperate for attention. It is pathetic to run across people who are so in need of help, but terrified of getting any. The rest of us may be glad not to be them.

@racocn8, uh huh. That's what evangelicals Christians are saying about you, too.

@GlyndonD No I DON'T think citizens should have ALL their money to spend "as they see fit."
That goes for my neighbors as well.
People will spend their money exactly as you'd expect: for their own good and betterment.
The common good, the betterment of society in general? Hah! Screw that!
People like you are precisely why we need government: to protect me from you. Or Jack from Henry. Or Harry from Bertrand.
No, the same people who are ruining the world would LOVE an unregulated marketplace in which they could rape and pillage their "fellow man" with impunity.
You, my friend, are living in a dream world.

@Gwendolyn2018, judgmental? I am wanting you to judge yourself, and that includes your predilection to think of your government as your god. The fact that you can't see this is mind boggling (pardon the pun), but that's the way it is with the brainwashed religiosos, isn't it.

Your refutations were simply statements. So what? Jehovah's Witnesses refute me all the time. But they go on believing their schtick because they are as closed-minded about their religion as you are about yours.

@Gwendolyn2018, @Storm1752, I see that you want your government to be your thug, taking from people by force and giving it to causes that appeal to you. Trouble is, the government has surpassed you, and will take what it wants from whoever it wants and give to whomever it wants when it is finished serving itself. But that's sufficient for you, right, because you will be satisfied with hurting everyone else even if you do not experience personal gain.

But I do see how you have great hatred for your fellow man, seeing them as being so evil that they deserve a malevolent master. Is that why you eventually have your government exterminate the individuals and groups that you most despise? (That's what I'm most afraid of.)

Talk about contradiction! You think everyone is so corrupt and greedy that they cannot be permitted to volunteer charity to their fellow man, and yet these same people will form a government that will compel them to be good and charitable. That's pretty twisted, but religious minds can be that way. My condolences.

@Gwendolyn2018, squash it, like any dissent against your government-god!

If you teach him to fish...

Only your god (the government) can give you a break: either a broken bone, or a Get-out-of-jail-free Card.

@GlyndonD I have no god. Certainly not yours.

@BitFlipper, as is always the case, you have no choice in accepting your god. He chooses you. And if you don't believe that, watch what happens when you don't pay your tithings (taxes).

@GlyndonD ahhh, changing the subject. Agnostic.com is probably not the right website for you.

@BitFlipper, nor you, if you continue to worship your government-god.

@GlyndonD Dear Airhead:
Our government is a reflection of us. We OWN it. If it falls, it's because we have failed.
BUT our collective strangth thus marshalled and focused on collective problems makes up for any deficiencies.
I criticize our government, but I wouldn't want it to simply 'go away!'
You apparently do.
You apparently should live somewhere with no government.
Sorry.
No such place.
I guess you're stuck here.

I find it absurd, and revolting.

Any government that has put itself above the individual. The US did it when they added the 16th Amendment.

@GlyndonD Yeah, no, I get it. I was making a point.

@Shawno1972, no harm, no foul. (Which is more than you can say about our government.)

@GlyndonD The 16th Amendment?
Are you high?
I'd personally rather have a national sales tax, but to say a government levying an income tax is assuming god-like powers is, frankly, Looney Tunes.
You're in the wrong place, my friend.

@Storm1752, the government is the only entity in the universe that has been given the power to directly take our money away from us. That's a god-like power, wouldn't you say? And if it isn't, whose power would it be?

Thaaaaaaaaaat's all, folks!

@GlyndonD

If the government puts itself above the individual, then yes.

Cut to today, when you are not to give, but government is to take. The 16th Amendment made that possible, and how the government was deified.

Fuck, man, talk to your pharmacist about potential drug interactions regarding your prescriptions.

Both are jealous gods.