It is an established fact that believers are deluded and liars. Believers readily accept this fact about other faiths and beliefs, just not their own. Is the world flat? NO, yet there are believers that are insistent, against all evidence, that it is true. Did the Great Flood actually happen? NO, yet believers refuse to accept truth, facts, or reality concerning this myth.
Our Founding Fathers established the First Amendment not to establish or give power to beliefs but to create a buffer so that there would be peace and unity between all beliefs and non-belief.
Believers believe in things they cannot see and doubt the things they can see: they are the perfect marks, the perfect pawns. The naive "childlike faith" that many embrace as being a benefit is actually a detriment and an avenue of control by cons, religions, politicians, governments, corporations, and institutions. Religion is a parasite, it has nothing in itself except what people put into it, that is why it is so divergent and fickle. It is amazing how such a large number of people will accept something that is provably wrong and reject something that is provably true, all because of their beliefs. This makes them the perfect pawns, the perfect marks; the unscrupulous simply have to define and control what the believer believes.
Here is a good example: Donald Trump relies on a simple phrase: ‘Believe me’
[bostonglobe.com]
Contrary to the Bible, faith has NO substance and is NOT evidence, PROOF is BOTH substance and evidence. Of all the billions of believers in the world, NOT ONE has proven their god exists, however, MANY have murdered, tortured, deceived, raped, bullied, and disenfranchised billions of other people because of their unproven and fallacious beliefs. That is just sick.
If their god and unsubstantiated claims were as fantastical and true as they declare they are, it would be beyond evident, no one could deny it, miracles and evidence would be the normal, however, it is the just opposite. Their god can be disregarded without a thought and nothing would happen, the world would not end.
Believers have deluded themselves to the point of denying everything that is contrary to what they BELIEVE so that they may KNOW that ONLY what they BELIEVE is true. That is insanity. That is the cult mind.
We must face the fact that there is a dark side to belief. There are religions who believe you should die if you don't believe in their god, would you tolerate their beliefs? We can respect the fact that everyone has the right to believe what they like, however, when beliefs are asserted as fact without evidence then everyone has the right to challenge those beliefs.
Many will pick and choose what they believe.
Some may believe that belief may unite people in purpose as well as socially, but so does beliefs like racism and tribalism, belief does not necessarily unite people for good. "That self-hatred should generate in us an eagerness to unite with others seems to suggest that it is primarily against ourselves that we league ourselves with others." - Eric Hoffer
Some may believe that when believers get engrossed in their beliefs it can cause people to achieve things that they cannot achieve by themselves. Which can be true, like snake-handling, suicide bombers and others who kill, hurt, and destroy because of their beliefs.
Some may believe that it provides personal security for the believer. However, it is a false sense of security based on unsubstantiated beliefs and not truth or reality. It is the rejection of self which causes the believer to feel “saved” or “liberated”. It can also delude them into believing they are invulnerable or that they will be saved even when they hurt or kill others. For example: not seeking medical attention even for their children and harming those who believe differently. [childrenshealthcare.org] ; [jcnot4me.com]
People murder daily, and parents allow their children to suffer and die needlessly, all because of their beliefs. Imagine the power if you could control what people believe. Cons, politicians, governments, religions, and corporations all desire to control your belief, because people will sacrifice everything to have its manifestation, even if it is imposed upon them and against their personal and common good.
"The act of self-denial seems to confer on us the right to be harsh and merciless toward others. The impression somehow prevails that the true believer, particularly the religious individual, is a humble person. The truth is that the surrendering and humbling of the self breed pride and arrogance. The true believer is apt to see himself as one of the chosen, the salt of the earth, a prince disguised in meekness, who is destined to inherit this earth and the kingdom of heaven, too. He who is not of his faith is evil; he who will not listen shall perish." - Eric Hoffer
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WilliamCharles
Level 8
Feb 17, 2020
6
People who believe in religion (higher powers specifically) are deluded, but aren't lying, they are simply acting under incorrect beliefs (to you). Their perspective is that you (and I) are operating under the mistaken belief that there is no god.
The issue is not their beliefs, it's their actions, speech and behavior based on those delusions/beliefs.
Example - I know a lot of people who believe in XYZ god(s), but they are kind, generous and help others in the world. Is that kindness and generosity and willingness to help others bad because of their belief? Or is it like my mother who couldn't execute on end of life care while in hospice because the hospice organization was Christian run?
It's like flat-earthers... Their belief is only harmful to themselves unless they start hoisting that delusion/dogma on others as the "Truth".
ZenPuppy
Level 4
Feb 17, 2020
5
I don't get the part about all believers being liars as well ... ?
evergreen
Level 8
Feb 17, 2020
4
I never said "all".
@nogod4me belief is a lie AND repeating religious lies in most situations is nasty .
...thank you for your exhaustive truth telling
I had a loving and gentle great aunt who was a devout Christian and believed she would see me again in heaven, one day, even though I'd intimated my doubts about all of that to her. Was she deluded? Yes, but she most certainly was not a liar. Lying requires an intentional state that we simply cannot ascribe to every believer.
There are also non-religious flat earthers.
Stupid knows no bounds.
JayOleck38
Level 7
Feb 17, 2020
4
it is most certainly not established fact, nor fact at all, that believers are liars. if they believe what they say, they are not lying. there are certainly liars among the religious leadership, but believers? no. delusional, yes, to varying degrees, but asserting their being liars as established fact is established hooey. phooey.
g
genessa
Level 8
Feb 17, 2020
4
Just as I said, it is an established fact that believers are deluded and liars. Which are which, you decide.
Creationist Dr. Duane Gish is a perfect example of this: [ncse.ngo]
If you believe and repeat a lie, is it now true?
@BirdMan1 Yes, I understand that concept. However, you and I both have dealt with believers that are deluded and liars, and most will wallow in their delusions and lies. We understand they are telling us lies whether they are deluded or not. Belief cannot validate or justify the lie, it is just giving the believer excuses to repeat the lie as if it were true.
@nogod4me There you go again, telling me what i have dealt with just because you have, or believe you have. You do not know me and cannot tell me what i have dealt with. People who believe a lie and repeat it are not lying. They're wrong and maybe delusional, and purveying a lie, but they are not lying.
g
@genessa, @nogod4me No, of course belief does not justify, or validate the lie, but the point is that the teller of the lie may not (and I'm not saying all the time) experience it as a lie. I saw "Shen Yun" the other day. It was done beautifully, but part of the agenda, involving the sustaining of ancient, 5,000 year old Chinese culture, in the face of the Communists, was the clear, and repeated statement that "Atheism and Evolutionism are lies." As I've stated in a post about this, this statement is a lie. But, if their belief system holds this belief, their saying that these are lies does not mean that they are intentionally lying. The "information" they are trying to impart is invalid, but they really believe it.
@BirdMan1 Years ago I met a young woman who was confined to a wheelchair because of a degenerative disease. On the back of her wheelchair she had a large sign that read in big bold letters “THE LIE.” I asked her what it meant and she told me that Jesus HAD ALREADY healed her through the wounds he suffered when he died (Isaiah 53:4-5). I stated the obvious and said to her, “but you are not healed.” She told me that she was “calling those things that BE NOT, as though THEY WERE - (Romans 4:17).”
In the secular world we call that lying, but in Jesus World it is called belief or faith. Was she deluded? Yes. Was she lying? Yes, to herself and to me, however, she simply called it belief. She UNDERSTOOD that she WAS NOT HEALED and yet continued to profess that she WAS healed because she believed she WOULD BE healed even though she believed that she WAS healed already. I have seen many examples of this delusion. Delusions are created from lies and lies stem from delusions.
Yes, not every believer pushes their lies/beliefs? My grandmother was deluded in her Christian beliefs, however, she kept her beliefs to herself: ""There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been."
Judge: “How do you plead.”
Thief: "I plead not guilty, your Honor."
Judge: "All the evidence proves your guilty: there are over 50 witnesses that saw you commit the crime. We have a video of you committing the crime, officers found the evidence on your person at the time of the arrest in a pawn shop where you were trying to sell the stolen items, and you have a long history of theft in your record. How can you plead not guilty with this overwhelming proof against you?"
Thief: "I'm calling those things that be not as thou they were!" (Trump has fooled his base using this same type of lie/belief.) There is a dark side to belief.
“Abracadabra is an incantation used as a magic word in stage magic tricks, and historically was believed to have healing powers when inscribed on an amulet.”
“Abracadabra is of unknown origin, and its first occurrence is in the second century works of Serenus Sammonicus, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Several folk etymologies are associated with the word: from phrases in Hebrew that mean "I will create as I speak", or Aramaic "I create like the word" to folk etymologies that point to similar words in Latin and Greek such as abraxas.” - Wikipedia
The Bible is filled with this type of nonsense:
And God said: Genesis 1:1-26; Romans 4:17; Hebrews 11:3; Mark 11:23; Mark 5:28; Hebrews 11:3
The Name-it-Claim-it cults and religions obsess over this type of belief.
Here is another example: "7 Tobacco company CEOs declare, under oath, that nicotine is not addictive. [senate.ucsf.edu]
All seven CEOs swore under oath that they did not BELIEVE that nicotine or their products were addictive. Belief is a get out of hell free card for believers.
@BirdMan1 There is a point when belief is no longer belief but willful ignorance. In the Gish example, he believed his misconceptions about the Bombardier Beetle. When the men demonstrated that he was wrong, he was forced to acknowledge and accept that fact. However, when Gish continued his speaking engagements he continued to push his misconceptions about the Bombardier Beetle. It then became willful ignorance and lying.
Concerning the young disabled woman, she was NOT believing, she was living in denial and willful ignorance all along. The evidence was undeniable, yet, she not only denied this evidence, she lived in willful ignorance and pushed the lie that she was ALREADY HEALED. It would have been another thing if she believed she was GOING TO BE HEALED, however, she willfully denied reality and would continually lie to herself and others that she WAS ALREADY HEALED. If she was already healed then why would she NEED to continue to BELIEVE that she was healed? Because she was NOT HEALED and she was living in denial and willful ignorance because she did not want to accept her circumstances.
The CEO’s, like Trump and others who exploit the mind of the believer, continually play this game. They use BELIEF because the evidence is against them. This is one of the reasons that the GOP Senators did not want witnesses in Trump’s impeachment trial, the more evidence that is presented, the more they must willfully deny that evidence, making them guilty of a cover-up.
This is the cult mind, Holocaust deniers, climate change deniers, and the Trump cult, all wallow in willful ignorance and denial against all evidence. This is why I say believers are deluded and liars.
@nogod4me In regard to the young woman, or anyone in her shoes, when one is "living in denial" that one is not lying when he/she makes a claim from that perspective, because the denial helps to create their reality. The young woman would not have come up "guilty" on a lie detector, because she would not have the interior emotional reaction that triggers "guilty." That is not to say she was not saying an untruth, just like someone who REALLY believes that the Earth is flat. Likewise, the fool who told me, the other day, that "I like what Trump has done for the country," was not lying. No matter how imbecilic we may think that statement was.
Willful ignorance can easily get under my skin, but I believe it is just another psychological defense mechanism, as denial is.
Nonetheless,I do agree with the last paragraph in your current response. Still that is not the same thing as what you said in the first sentence of your post
@BirdMan1 That would also mean that Gish was not lying, although clearly he was since he was forced to admit that he was wrong and then continued to push the misconception. I also forced the woman to admit she was not really healed when I asked her to explain her circumstances. At that point they are no longer believing, they are fully aware that they are willfully embracing ignorance to sustain a lie that they have been telling themselves and others. They can't have it both ways, embracing evidence that they were force to accept because of reality and then disregarding that evidence in order to justify their so-called belief.
Willful ignorance is not belief, it is knowing the truth, but embracing a lie instead of the truth.
Again, it reminds me of George Costanza on Seinfeld. When he was asked how he fooled the lie detector test, "he said, It's not a lie if you believe it." That is willful ignorance.
@BirdMan1 Whenever someone asked her to explain her circumstances, she was forced to tell the truth, even though her disability was always evident to everyone including herself, and she was forced to admit that she wasn’t healed.
It was evident she was not believing but living in willful ignorance and denial because reality itself pushed the fact that she was not healed every second of every day, something she could not deny. If she was already healed then why would she NEED to continue to BELIEVE that she was healed? Like the old anecdote: I found my keys! They were in the last place I looked! Well, I hope so, if you continued to look for your keys after you found them then you would be insane.
Evidence cannot be discarded through faith or belief. Evidence has substance, belief does not, the evidence will remain, however, the belief becomes willful ignorance, denial, and if pushed it becomes lying. That is why we still prosecute those who murder or allow their children to die because of their “beliefs,” because we know it is actually willful ignorance.
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides." Ignatius Loyola (the founder of the Jesuits)
Ignatius Loyola is basically telling believers to accept, espouse, and push an obvious lie. He is telling them to embrace the cult mind and to live, not in belief, but willful ignorance, denial, and lying. In this case, belief is irrelevant because they KNOW white is not black no matter how much they want to believe it. The evidence is overwhelmingly against them, their only choice is to live in willful ignorance, denial, and lies and call it belief.
This is exactly what Trump and the GOP have been doing all along, wanting everyone to believe them over all evidence. [dailykos.com]
Once evidence is established, a believer can only deny, live in willful ignorance, and lie. It does not change reality, they can lie against the evidence but the evidence will still be there.
If someone lies to you and you believe them, you may push that lie inadvertently and INNOCENTLY even though it is still a lie. This is the excuse used by most believers that they are not actually lying.
However, if someone lies to you and you have evidence and KNOWLEDGE that it is a lie, yet, instead of telling the truth you push the lie, then that is intentionally lying against knowledge or information (willful ignorance). Belief does not change the lie into truth nor does it give an excuse, justify, or validate the lie.
That is why I used the Flat Earth and the Great Flood examples. The evidence is overwhelmingly against the believer, just like in the Bombardier Beetle and the disabled woman’s example, just because they refuse to accept the evidence doesn’t change reality, and it definitely cannot justify the lies they tell themselves and others, because they ALREADY KNOW THE TRUTH. Now they are simply compelled to reject and lie against the knowledge or information they KNOW but refuse to accept. That is not belief, that is willful ignorance.
Is it really lying, if that is what you actually believe?
chiara23k
Level 7
Feb 17, 2020
4
I note that @nogod4me claims "It is an established fact that believers are deluded and liars." without providing any supporting evidence. I also disagree with his claim.
It is my experience that many, or perhaps even most, self-proclaimed believers are deluded. Those who are not deluded are liars by definition. Some of those who are deluded also tell lies about other matters.
Yes burning Atheists in hell forever is a brutal evil lie .... belief is a lie regardless whether the believer thinks their lies are true
Believers have to be liars because there simply is not any proof. I challenge god to heal all those at St. Jude of their cancer and I'm not even Catholic. Of course, I forgot that many of these children are there because of the sins of their fathers. God is so just and we cannot understand his ways.
Many today think Trump has something to do with god and some have even wanted him to sign their bibles. If Trump lies do not make him just like Jesus, at least he can be "just like Cyrus." There is lots of delusion here.
Anyone remember the 2 men during WW2 that were shooting at each other and one could not harm or kill the other because they were both Christian? I don't remember it either but it shows how complicated things are for god and how big his job is. Each side has a story to tell even though they are lying.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Feb 18, 2020
2
I was a Christian for 30 years. I had a huge emotions problem I prayed about for two years with no luck to get over. Desperate I tried hypnosis and it did more for me in one try than praying to god for two years did. So I started studying hypnosis and I discover that all religion is self hypnosis
abyers1970
Level 7
Feb 18, 2020
3
Sounds about right, and when one is in that state, citing the delusions is not lying.
Inside a "TRUE BELIEVER" lurks the shell of what could have been a real human being. The hollow personality that remains is one that lives in constant fear that "this may be all there is". Ask any "Christian" what their purpose in life is and you get the same "programmed" answer..."to serve God and enjoy my reward in Heaven". To them it's not about living in the moment. To them it's all about having been slapped with their own mortality since their birth, and they cannot resolve it without having some hope that they will not die. The bait on the religious "HOOK" is simply...Immortality. It doesn't have to be proven...because deep down they know it cannot be proven...so they live in a state of denial. That explains how easily someone like Trump can be accepted...he is basically an elected preacher that promises them riches in the name of God ... All the while fleecing them blind.
phoenixone1
Level 8
Feb 17, 2020
3
Everything has good and bad. I don't think religion is all bad. It is just not for me. When my Aunty lost her grand son and her husband, the church she joined helped her heal spiritually and emotionally. At that point in her life she could not have done it alone. She had to seek an external salvation since her world was in shambles. If she believes a god saved her and has brought happiness in her life, i am glad. She thinks god is in all of us. Whether she calls that god or personal strength, it is none of anyone's business. I believe the latter. Religions become bad when people use it to take advantage of others and use it over others.
chiara23k
Level 7
Feb 18, 2020
2
Religions take advantage of people like your Aunty. Changing normal grief and mourning into time and money spent with believers is likely increasing her pain and ADJUSTMENT to personal losses.....of course death is no time for Atheists to intervene differently with loved ones but here in cyberAgnosticLand many of us Atheists can speak rationally and prepare for future deaths avoiding predatory believers
@Larry68Feminist - by definition "advantage" would imply one side is gaining from the situation and the other is being disadvantaged. If both sides are benefiting, is there really an "advantage"?However, I do see your point. They are taking "advantage" of the person's unfortunate situation. If believing in an imaginary thing is going to keep my aunty stay alive and not be curled up in bed all day...that is what it is going to be. Not all churches talk bad about other religions and Agnostics... some are just a place of refuge for people to reflect on their lives... and yes with the imaginary god. If we are condemning religions like they condemn Agnostics, we are no better. Can't we just all coexist and keep our personal beliefs to ourselves?
@chiara23k telling the truth about religion IS THE BEST course of action and Atheists are ZERO like believers... making nice with the evil genocidal book King James bibles is keeping great evil ongoing.....if anything I don't condemn religions often enough.....6 million women die each year because religion denies them life saving abortions and/or deadly disease preventing condoms.... the 2 rapist living popes are not in prison because too many people make nice for rapist priests and abusive nuns millions of these criminals are given undeserved respect WHILE I SHOULD piss on them many times daily....not just a few times per week as I do
Ummm, some of my best friends are devout believers, and I resent, on their behalf, you ASSuming/saying nasty things about them. Ever try Minding Your Own Business?
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Feb 17, 2020
1
Unless your friends were doing some of the nasty things that I mentioned, I wasn't talking about them. My point is there is a dark side to belief that most people ignore.
@nogod4me I agree, but tarring every believer with the same negative paint does no one any favors.
@K9Kohle789 Nasty about it, aincha? What do you suggest? Put th em in concentration camps, maybe?
@K9Kohle789 How adult of you! Tarring & feathering an entire group because You are the only one who had a hard time growing up? My life was just a bed of Roses, just like everybody else on here, I'm sure.....
@K9Kohle789 wow, you don't see anything but yourself, ever....sad.
@K9Kohle789 I and many others on here have done plenty of good deeds, without calling others liars. Maybe you could give that a try?
Yet another example of a liar and a group of deluded sheep.
Apunzelle
Level 7
Feb 17, 2020
1
Your Hoffer quotes are interesting.
Much of this is true but trite, so mildly insulting, as if you think we don't already take it as a given.
Your point is lacking--what, religious true believers are wrong to claim infallibility? Yes, of course.
Deluded? Check. And liars may use naive true belief to con the gullible and to artificially inflate their own weak egos...sure, but
so what?
It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself, not us.
People believe for all kinds of reasons, but if they're lying they're not deluded, are they? If deluded, they're not lying.
More like the blind leading the blind!
All in all, you need focus, in my opinion, and whatever your conclusions, they are obscure. If it's that it's a shame religion is often an excuse for all kinds of trajedy and abuse, gee, no sh*t!
Some believe simply because they mistakenly (?) personalize a deep-seated conviction god exists. Well, maybe A universal 'truth' DOES exist; just not a quantifiable, verifiable, actionable one.
Tell THEM that; we already know.
Storm1752
Level 8
Feb 18, 2020
1
Your statement is almost as long and muddy as the Mississippi river. Belief simply means: accept and hold something (information) as true.
Much of the information you have written is your belief as you observe things. There is error in your statement as you have written of what you believe to be true as you observe. Its basically the pot calling the kettle black. In my opinion (statement more as humor not intended as exactly precise numbers, hyperbole) 99 % of Christians are actually lying atheist. So, the problem with "believers" is that they are lying about what they say they believe. Here then lies the fix for the situation: teach all the illogical dishonest atheist logic and to be logical it would end christianity and atheism.
Word
Level 8
Feb 17, 2020
0
As @Novelty suggests, if you cannot say it in at most 20 words, then it is not worth saying.
(The above is 19 words long.)
anglophone
Level 9
Feb 17, 2020
1
@Leontion I do so love a misrepresentation!
@Leontion Perhaps conflating something such as On the Origin of Species with a single thought was a mistake?
@Leontion I see the multiple angles of attack as flogging a dead horse.
@Leontion I thank you for giving me that insight. I had not thought of it that way.
When people are conveinced something is true they are not lying even if what they believe is delusional. There are many apologist (probably most) that do knowingly lie outright. These lies are not necessarily an accurate portroyal of the group.
They do decieve themseleves to belief the unbelievable and that which is not logical as believers. This agaain makes them deluded not liars. I deal with the actual liars daily online.
DavidLaDeau
Level 8
Feb 17, 2020
1
Just as I said, it is an established fact that believers are deluded and liars. Which are which, you decide.
Creationist Dr. Duane Gish is a perfect example of this: [ncse.ngo]
If you believe and repeat a lie, is it now true?
@nogod4me If one believes, and repeats, a lie, it is still a lie. The one repeating it is not lying, as it is true that that one believes what he/she is saying. The fellow who recently told me that he likes "...what Trump has done for the country" was not lying, dreadfully mistaken in his belief that Trump has done anything good for the country, but not lying.
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