Which explains work the local Watchtower keeps putting unadulterated bullshit in my letterbox.

@anglophone Yes it is hard to be nice to them, but sadly every time someone gives them the cold shoulder, rebuffs them or refuses to answer the door, they do a little bit of the churches work for it.

@Fernapple They tend to hate me because I expect them to use their brains, to which they take exception:

• Why do I need to be saved?
• Please demonstrate that the universe was created.
• Please demonstrate that the Resurrection happened.
• Where did all the water for the Great Flood come from?
• etc, etc, etc

@anglophone I have thought of using a charm offensive, really give them time and attention until you get a possitive response like. "People don't usually listen to us like you do." And then counter with. "No I am sorry that you don't get listened to, but I am bound to give you attention, because I am the village atheist."

@Fernapple What a wonderful response!

@anglophone Never seem to have the time though.

That is much too simplistic and lacks an understanding of how hard it is to untrain the mind which has been trained to believe in god. The punishment of eternal damnation in hell was invented for just this possibility of backsliding by believers. The choice seems simple...”just think for yourselves and you will realise it’s all myths and fantasy”, but in reality it takes a strong mind to counter deeply ingrained beliefs and their attendant rewards. . It’s much easier to keep believing than to leave and be treated like an outcast.

We're all at different points along the path of understanding and our choices are likely different depending on where we are.

@Marionville you're correct.. I do lack this type of understanding .. I wasn't a believer...

@Cutiebeauty Neither was I...but I understand people and I understand the nature of mass indoctrination.

@Marionville I understand people too but I don't understand brain washing

@Cutiebeauty No, but you don’t need to ever have been brainwashed to understand how effective the results are,

@Marionville I actually don't even think it's a case of brain washing.. It's indoctrination.. The same as when a parent raises their children.. They teach them what they were taught.... Are atheists brain washed? Or Muslims or Jews? Or even politicians? The goes on and on.. Even gender roles can be considered brain washing, right?
These days., many don't take responsibility for themselves... Watch a few court shows.. The defendants frequently come up with many reasons why it's not their fault when it's obvious it is...

@Cutiebeauty Okay..I probably should more correctly used indoctrination and not brain-washing, although the effects are virtually the same, I acknowledge that they are subtly different. I will change my wording, but it doesn’t change the thrust of my argument in any material way.

Sucking up to admin, paraphrasing Kant (actually a service, so thanks should be offered there, but still...).

What have you become?

@1of5 ??

@Cyklone was referencing a different post from a long time ago, in a thread far, far away....

I agree but I also believe what we know can also shape how we act. "In (a ) god we trust" was not the original motto. It was E. Pluribus Unum [religioustolerance.org] The god stuff was not added to coins until the next century and the term was not added to paper bills until the mid-50's. FFRF has a stamp (which I have and use) which can help to make dirty money into clean money. Simple overstamp the dirty words as substitute "In Reason We Trust" and wa la cleaned.

1. Great quote by Frankl. I have learned that we can best effect change by first changing ourselves.
2. "In God we trust" - God can be defined any number of ways to any number of religions. In a sense, I would call my intuition or subconscious voice God. And I trust my intuition greatly.
3. It is troubling the connection between religion and mass killing. I read a great piece recently that talked about how that is accomplished through dehumanization of others who are considered different. We, as agnostics, also need to be careful of dehumanizing others.

They are not victims but perpetrators. It's all to easy to claim victim hood especially in inter-tribal conflicts.

"You're a better man than I, Gunga Din."

@anglophone I do know the quote....however, I’m a Sheila!

@Omnedon Thanks for “sticking up “ for me!

@Marionville I thought you might be amused by that.

The brainwashed confronting those of non-belief who then defend themselves: I like that idea. Thank you.

@luckytobealive I adore your sense of humour.

The answer to your implicit question about the ability to break free lies in the amount of damage to the prefrontal cortex of the human brain during a child's developmental years. This has become clear in studies in neuroscience and psychology over the last decade. In summary, if the damage inflicted by God Mobsters is not too severe, then people can overcome their own brainwashing, otherwise they cannot, and some of the latter cohort go on to inflict further damage on the children of their day.

@luckytobealive Wow! I thank you ever so much for sharing all that. And ((hugs)) to you as well. My own trauma pales into insignificance compared to your's. I am glad you were able to make your own way out of that evil place.

Agreed, I see religious fundamentalists as being inclined to take attacks on their ideas as being personal attacks, which is why I tend to avoid them unless they first approach me.

There are times when I despair of their apparent inability to think analytically.

@anglophone The more fundamental the religion is to identity, more careful you need to be when approaching the issue.

That is why things like Sci-fi and fantasy (the good ones)exist, they first take you out of your reality so they can discuss central points of your identity without triggering self defense. But people don't understand.

That is why you have X-men fans that are racist (when X-men is all about anti racism).
Or when you have people that love star wars but can't understand that rebels fighting against oppressive governments will always be labeled as terrorists ans we need to know how to separate real terrorists from rebels against oppression.

That is why if you really want to talk religion with a fundie (and are prepared to loose some mental sanity points) you need to speak about religion without speaking about it. You need to speak about reasoning you need to teach him the tools and let him/her use it by themselves.

You need to corrode this pillar of identity and let it fall over its own weight rather than attacking it directly.

And most of us that have a religious upbringing became atheists/agnostics by this method.

@Pedrohbds I like your analysis. I wish I had your patience. I am infamous for not suffering fools gladly.

@JohnnyQB

No matter how much you attack the idea and not the person, the person will feel attacked because the idea is part of her sense of identity. This does not mean you did something wrong, it means that your message will never go trough, no matter how precise and respectful with people you are

This is not your fault and not under your control, I agree that talking about the idea is something totally valid.

I am not saying that doing this is wrong, you can do it freely. It is just counter productive if your objective is to start a dialogue.

It is not about being right or wrong, is about achieving the desired effect.
If you want to piss of religious people that ca't separate the person and the idea, go for it you will not do anything wrong, atheists will cheer and will piss off a bunch of religious people that can't separate the ideas of religion of their sense of self.

BUT if you want your message to not be received as personal attack then you need to be more strategic and careful.

It is not about what you say, it is about foreseeing the impact on the receiver.

@JohnnyQB I agree with you, relax.

We need both approaches.
We need the spearheads like Hitchens that go on the front and take all in the chest.
But sometimes we need some soft work to not turn soft religious people into reactionary..

If you attack too much the identity of a person (even if is not a direct attack) the person can radicalize instead of noticing the mistakes.

the 2 (or many) approaches are complementary, and we need to have them in our tool box.

And if we don't then we need to choose our battles and not use the wrong tool at the wrong time and make the situation worse.

I am tired of seeing people turning potential allies in enemies because "I have the right of free speech and I will say it just because I can."

Using the wrong tool for the situation, it is not a forbidden or wrong tool, it just not fit for that situation.

I don't know if this expression exists in English but in my language we say
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you can only see nails."

@JohnnyQB I get it, and I know how to separate the idea and the identity. What I says that the receivers of the message don't know most of times. that's when we must take some extra care, because even if we don't attack the identity, this can be so connected for the receiver that for him, talking about religion is the same as talking about himself.

All the rest I agree and sometimes we need some hammertime against fundies, because sometimes we discuss with the fundie, sometimes when the fundie is a lost cause, we talk with the crowd around him that is what Hitchens do in most of cases, he is not talking with the religious person in front of him, he is talking with the crowd.

@JohnnyQB Yes, but I lived most of my life in Brazil, and believe me, bible belt is a walk in the park compared to it.

And that is where I tell, you criticize religion, people take it personally no matter the effort you put to separate person of the idea.

When I say talking with the crowd means that at some point you stop trying to dialogue with the other person and try to show the audience your point, because the person is inflexible and not really open to dialogue.

You have an experience I have other, you have some tools in your tool box, I have others, isn't it beautiful? I understand your point, I am just arguing it is not the only one.

I come from a place where saying "I think god does not exist" Can trigger a lot of reactions.
Even in the bible belt you discuss about religion. In Brazil they don't even worry to discuss, it is a fact, a reality, god exists. The only question is catholic or protestant, anything else is wrong, degenerate, sinful, and wrong by definition.

The state is secular on paper, but try to argue against it.
It is a waaaay more authoritarian, monolithic and hierarchic environment.

So please stop trying to use authority arguments based on a bazillion years of experience, because your experience is stil limited to the cultures and backgrounds around you. Stop thinking that white united statians from the bible belt are the only Christians on the world.

Even some regions in southern Norway are highly religious also.

@JohnnyQB I use most of times in my initial argument, because I was referring to the original post.
And of course I won't put all premises and consequences in some lines in one post, i am not here to write a thesis.
Depends on what you think as unbeliever. even while I was in church I was adept of some way of rational thinking, this corded my belief and when I had some periods of distance from the church, this feeling-feeding of religion stopped and I saw the bullishit I was stil trapped in. So I don't know how long I am an unbeliever, but I can sy the first time I told I was agnostic was maybe 11 years ago.

@JohnnyQB Well said.

@Pedrohbds Fun discussion guys! I must be weird, these kinds of discussions are something I enjoy first thing in the morning with my coffee. Now I'm gonna go check the weather forecast for the day.

To praphrase someone, good people will still do good and bad will do bad ( but for good people to do bad takes religion)

@Cyklone I believe that was Steven Weinberg who said “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

@gearl thanks for that reference. I wasn't sure where it originated. I agree with it mostly but I would amend the final clause to something like unquestioned or blind belief because the same issue occurs with things like political ideologies.

BS. Acting more provocative due to menstrual cycles doesn't give anyone permission to touch you. Just because you're subconsciously doing something isn't a welcome mat for everyone. Sheesh.

@CommonHuman Some do a lot of things that put them in harms way. If someone takes a shortcut through a dark alley and gets mugged of course the 'victim' is totally blameless (not). Sometimes people become victims because they don't use common sense and take precautions. Yes, if someone gets the wrong message and does something they are the bad guys. But we really do need to pay attention to messages we send. Little good comes from claiming victimhood when we have been seriously hurt or even dead!!!

@StarvingArtist What I am saying is there are levels of victim-hood. If one leaves their car unlocked and it gets broken into is this the same as locking ones car and someone smashes the window and gets in? I noted in Europe some police would check cars in a public parking space and any unlocked cars would get ticketed. This is not a simple B & W issue. I could say that when someone criticizes me personally because they refused or didn't understand what I said makes me a victim!?

Acting in any way whatsoever at any time for any reason is no reason for anyone to ASSume they can do anything to me or any other human being. Who funded those charming studies, and who interpreted those actions?! The Rape is Just Peachy Organization? The She's Asking for It Foundation? Sickos!

@AnneWimsey Victimization is not just one (or more) on one it covers a whole range of things. There was once a settlement in Northern Washington. It was a noted slide area yet people continued to build there despite the warnings. A major slide occurred and people died. I am reading a book "Act of God" about how we continually ignore natural disasters like earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and so on because we want to live in a nice place. The list goes on and on. We are responsible to be cautious with our lives but often don't pay attention. People killed in disasters are often called 'victims.'This is what I mean by levels of victim hood. It is not a B & W issue. Israel, after more than 70 years use their 'victim hood as a way for the world to ignore their cruelty to other groups. [en.wikipedia.org]
for a short video

@JackPedigo

At 19, my daughter was violently raped and beaten by a stranger. Claire was asleep in her bed in college when the rapist attacked her.

Claire and four other girls and took the rapist to court.

The rapist's attorney attacked and blamed the girls for drinking alcohol and wearing short dresses to parties where the rapist spotted them.

Are you saying these girls deserve to be raped?

@LiterateHiker I owe an apology. My comment didn't come out as I had wanted. Next time I will give this more thought.
Through this site I realized my late partner had been raped by her husband hence two abortions and finally getting her tubes tied. I also recently made a post about a friend who wrote several books the first one being about her rape. It is not to be taken lightly and I do not.

In the early 90's we (myself and my then partner) got my 17 year old daughter to live with us. I was unaware of her home situation (Bi-polar mother and alcoholic step-father) and her habit of leaving home. At one point she told us she and a friend were going downtown Seattle at night. They were going to meet some friends around Pioneer Square. Things are bad in that area now but even worse then. We had to force her to not go. She had no idea. Yes, there are victims but not all situations are the same. One has a responsibility, especially in this day and age, to be very cautious. Being a victim does little good when one is injured or dead.

@JackPedigo

Thank you. Apology accepted.

Very well said!

I must have used a cheat code then cuz I was born to theists and came out atheist in the end

@demifeministgal wish more were born that way.

Up, up, down, left, down, right, right, green button twice, down, enter. Think that one works for cathlics.

@1of5 shhh... don't expose the catholic cheat code.... the other catholics must decipher it from the secret messages in the pope's messages and their priests' masses! >.>

@demifeministgal dammit! No wonder I keep losing my security clearance.

I don't know. You'd think there must be a point where we stop blaming our parents for our problems but I think that depends on how much conflicting info there is to help you wake up. I do know that I learnt many of my lessons by running into the consequences of my stupidities but unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen with religion