Yes, but which do we attack/reinforce first.... belief or FACT?

One could [some do] say that "It is a statement of fact that Jesus is dead, but I believe him still alive". Is that just semantics or plain confusion. Unfortunately religionists have TWO ways of knowing,. One is science and the other is magical.

This is good.

So how do we get it to crush religionists for good? My only answer is to do more science but this is not popular with religionists or with a big chunk of members on this site. Impossible task?

@Mcflewster The internet is the biggest source of information now. The trick is figuring out how to get the proper information to the right people in a way that they can accept it. This is why my YouTube channel is actually geared towards fundamentalist. I was one so I know what approach would work for me.

@DavidLaDeau Good tactical talk!

@Mcflewster Thank You! I do pay much attention to what you say and your thoughts. So you may have been an influence!

You cannot use "science " <the study of nature > to disprove super nature or supernatural. This doesn't mean that a supernatural account is true. But, again, you cannot logically use the study of nature and its laws to claim that an "all-powerful " is not "actually " all powerful because natural science has laws that "all-power" cannot violate.

Conclusion, If something be "all-powerful" and you are only of limited power in nature then you cannot logically disprove something that would have power over nature in such a manner of ... let's say all-power could by its all-powerfulness set carbon dating so that when scientists test for carbon dating the scientists would get the carbon date that the all-powerful wanted the scientists to get.

This does not prove all-powerful exist, it does not prove all-power in fact manipulated natural things to give certain appearances when studied by "natural power" scientific methods.

Again, logically, you cannot say less power scientific correctness is absolutely correct when by definition of all-powerful, the all-powerful by definition could manipulate nature to give it what ever apparence the all-power would all powerlfuly want less-than-all-powerful science to see.

I admit I am just playing round with words . Think what it was like for early men and women who had no chance of proving that god does not exist , no chance of being skeptical , their only chance was to follow their (deluded) leader be it warrior or king. BTW That is a great new word........................... ...Buwahahahahaaaaaa!

@Mcflewster oh I cannot take credit......it has been around.

Very true , except that you do have a choice.

@Mcflewster always

A good analysis

@Leontion Yup, even the atheist may be covered by an insurance policy that includes damages resulting from 'acts of God!'

@Leontion "God's ways are mysterious and humans can't understand it"
The ultimate 'get out' clause.

@Leontion "the whole point of faith, for people who value it, is the absence of factual support and even belief in the face of contradiction by evidence" GOOD POINT

"absence of factual support" sad

Indeed. I had no clue what the definition of a father was until my daughter and son showed me.

I wanted to show the interdependence of beliefs. Take God away and Poof away goes angels ... although some people cling on to Angels without God. Somehow I don't think independent angels will last for ever except in a few deluded pockets

@Mofo 1953 I have no intentions of stopping you using Webster OR stopping you googling.

@maturin1919 says someone who didn't even post, spare me of your ass kissing attitude.

@Mcflewster you wouldn't he able to, so...

@maturin1919 many have tried and failed miserably.

@JohnnyQB just speaking clearly and directly, some people can't take that, to which I say boo fucking hoo!

@maturin1919 if I'm a dick, then put it in your mouth and suck it you busy body cunt!

@maturin1919 you like to threaten with violence while not posting any photos, who is hiding you little coward bitch, thank your lucky stars you're in PA and keep bullying, it's well known that bullies are fucking cowardly bitches, so fuck off you incognito pussy!

@maturin1919 then who wrote this you fucking moron? "absent a keyboard, this guy would be getting knocked the fuck out regularly" show your face like a real man you twat! Otherwise go hide behind your profile you whiny little bitch!

@maturin1919 typical of busy bodies, throw stone and hide the hand. Put up a real photo you pussy, why don't you address that which you conveniently always forget, huh? I know why? Because you're the coward who projects his cowardice to all except to the real cunt, you!; a fucking whiny little bitch of a person, a pussy, put up or shut the fuck up, bitch! Now fuck off, wasting my time with candy ass, namby pamby, yellow bellied bitches stops now.

@maturin1919 coward, my bio shows who I am you are just a coward who hides behind avatars. Fuck off already you pussy.

@maturin1919 Who ?

@maturin1919 - you sully this forum. There is no reason for your aggressive remarks.

@maturin1919 - your words and grammar show a decent command of the language, but what and how you say things shows great immaturity and/or some deep seated psychological problems. Why else would you bring troglodyte pub-brawling language to a philosophical discussion?!! A philosophical discussion man!! Do you see how weird and inappropriate your behaviour is??!

@maturin1919 talk to me when you identify yourself. Be a man and don't hide behind avatars. Oh, you're proving to be a little baby bitch to all by going redherring, nyah nyah nyah. Address the real issue, you hide, you are a fucking whiny little bitch. Go fuck yourself with your other spiritualist religion defenders.

To quote Carl Sagan, "I don't want to believe, I want to know".

@jlynn37 This is a good quote from Sagan but presumably you would not want to say " I believe I am an agnostic" . I just do not like being called a "None believer" or even a "None", simply because it is used as a put-down phrase and I do have beliefs , mostly in Humans and their potential.

@Mcflewster Be called a humanist.

@Atheist3 Thanks for your endorsement. Any chance of you using it???

@Mcflewster 100%! I'm a humanist first.

@Atheist3 Are you here for the same reason as me then? Whatever you are called?

@Mcflewster lol no.

@Atheist3 How do you know what my reasons are?

@Mcflewster I can only go by what you've stated about yourself, which based upon the scant evidence that you've given tells me that you should express yourself more fully.

@maturin1919 I like your analysis. My own view is that the word "belief" is ambiguous, and that people have a habit of using words imprecisely.

@maturin1919 Fine - but HOW do they write what they do?? Perhaps with the help of too many religionists?

@Mcflewster Are you referring to @maturin1919's comment about a dictionary?

@maturin1919 And dictionaries often differ in what the offer for any given word.

@maturin1919 The differ sufficiently for this pedant to notice.

@maturin1919 I find such differences to be highly significant.

@maturin1919 I acknowledge your position.

"explaining the natural world." is a core belief of naturalists.

@maturin1919 The first dictionaries were written by monks?

I accept your choice. I just don't want to accept what the Bible, philosophers or Dictionaries say as part of my rebelious nature. I accept that not everyone will accept what I say but my intention is to throw more light on how people use the words as religionists do. They have hi-jacked so many words

"Blah, blah, blah?" Sounds almost like Charlie Brown's teacher: "Wah waaah wah wah waaaah wah waah..."

@p-nullifidian Thanks I had not made that link but that is why children like people who ridicule their teacher. I am well used to it, but still managed to educate as Charlie Brown does.