Were you tagging me somewhere on this post? Can't see it, if it was under that RedCat guy's comment, won't do any good as I blocked that wanker. I haven't got the spare time to bicker with the rude folks, and will focus my attention on those who contribute constructive comments, regardless if I may agree or disagree with them and they with me.

@SpikeTalon ...............fascinating

The most-indoctrinated proselytizers are also the most verbose.

@PBuck0145 .....and the most flippant morons the most terse. not me of course. im rubber, youre glue

I've made a note to block your moronic arse, later dude, got no time to waste on angry creeps.

@SpikeTalon ...............then why are you awake?

That wasn't stupid, but rather based on my past direct experiences with many members on here, and not surprisingly a few of the screechers indeed showed up.

Same here. It's a waste of time poking fun of and wishing death on those who are unvaccinated.

As long as even one individual changes their mind, it was worth your time.

Thank you Gator. Too much is at stake for me to give up, I will continue talking with family members who are vaccine hesitant even if such isn't exactly good for my nerves.

Your faith in the power-tripping "authorities" is inspirational. Take heart. With FDA approval of the Pfizer MRNA genetic manipulation, more of the sheep will fall in line. No need for independent critical evaluation.

@PBuck0145 It's not about me having faith in the authorities, but rather everyone learning to work together. The main theme of this post was that bullying and dehumanizing others will not change their minds. I used the recent vaccine debate as an example.

were talking about a deadly still mutating medical disease, and about contagion. force is required for anti vaccers, not winning them over

@holdenc98 Okay, thanks.

meh, they’ll figger it out i guess, when they’re on their eighth booster shot, and paying $15 a loaf for bread…

@bbyrd009 People (including me) get influenza shots every year. Flu is much less deadly than COVID and the shots less effective than the COVID shot.

@PBuck0145
In what way is an mRNA vaccination “genetic manipulation”? Please explain to me in biologically meaningful detail how the mRNA COVID vaccine allegedly reverse transcribes and integrates into the genome. All it does is get translated into peptide product as with any other mRNA transcript. The mRNAs your genome makes aren’t genetically manipulating you. Why would a COVID vaccine have this magical property? It’s not a retrovirus.

And while you’re at it show how natural immunity is superior to being vaccinated by the mRNA vaccines? And why contracting COVID and risking death or long term debilitating effects would be preferable to the relatively minor side effects of a vaccine.

@Scott321 [directorsblog.nih.gov]
[directorsblog.nih.gov]
IMHO, history will show that those who have recovered from Covid-19 infections have superior immunity to those who have submitted to MRNA genetic manipulation.
[en.wikipedia.org]

@Scott321 "free" shots, right?
lol
bam go with that then, if you like

@PBuck0145
First we can ditch the wiki link on what mRNA is as it does nothing to bolster your point. Maybe you should study it to find out what mRNA is so you stop with the genetic manipulation nonsense.

Not sure if you thought Collins was agreeing with you in the other link. First he says: “All vaccinated individuals had received two doses of the Moderna mRNA vaccine. This vaccine works by prompting a person’s cells to produce the spike protein, thereby launching an immune response and the production of antibodies.”

Because that’s what mRNA does. Where is the support for your assertion (twice now) for genetic manipulation. mRNAs without steps of reverse transcription into DNA or integration into the genome don’t manipulate genetics. Sorry.

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Do mRNA vaccines have these?

Now Collins says other interesting stuff:
The important acronym RBD explained: “… the receptor binding domain (RBD), a key region of the spike protein that studs SARS-CoV-2’s outer surface. This RBD is especially important because the virus uses this part of its spike protein to anchor to another protein called ACE2 on human cells before infecting them. That makes RBD a prime target for both naturally acquired antibodies and those generated by vaccines.”

Moving on:
“The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection.” What does that mean to you?

And: “More importantly, the data provide further documentation that those who’ve had and recovered from a COVID-19 infection still stand to benefit from getting vaccinated.” So vaccination good even if previously infected? Ok then.

Also: “Importantly, the vaccine-elicited antibodies targeted a broader range of places on the RBD than those elicited by natural infection... What’s more, antibodies acquired with the help of a vaccine may be more likely to target new SARS-CoV-2 variants potently, even when the variants carry new mutations in the RBD.”

Oh and: “A third difference is that natural infection only exposes the body to the virus in the respiratory tract (unless the illness is very severe), while the vaccine is delivered to muscle, where the immune system may have an even better chance of seeing it and responding vigorously.” Vigorously? Is that good or bad?

Sorry I don’t want to suffer severe illness to get effects that the vaccine can do without almost killing me. YMMV.

“The good news so far is that, unlike the situation for the common cold, we have now developed multiple COVID-19 vaccines. The evidence continues to suggest that acquired immunity from vaccines still offers substantial protection against the new variants now circulating around the globe.”

So….???

@Scott321 So you are happy with a "vaccine" which manipulates human cells to produce the spike protein which hoodwink our immune system into producing antibodies which MIGHT resist COVIT-19. That is your personal right. I do not share your compliance. It is antithetical to individual liberty to force compliance with your position on your fellow citizens.

@bbyrd009 Why does it seem you’re doing the “free stuff liberal” thing? I get flu shots under insurance. I work with the public including elderly people, so the flu shots are as much duty bound as self-serving. And the COVID shots that were free and the boosters a few months from now ensure I don’t wind up in a hospital bed taking up space preventing others from that room and costing money to the system as a whole. The antivaxxers are the true freeloaders causing others to pay the price for their Braveheart freedom scream. Some orphan their children.

My “free” shots are coming from a place of personal responsibility. I guess only sheep have heartfelt concerns for themselves and others. Or sheep are easily duped into really bad judgment calls ranging from avoiding protective vaccines to using ivermectin instead.

@Scott321 Your "straw man" assertions are unfounded, and bolster your comfortable position which is not supported by verifiable evidence or research.

The links which you provided in your previous response support my "genetic manipulation" viewpoint.

@PBuck0145 OK you’re going to need to expand on what you mean by the “genetic manipulation” argument.

@PBuck0145 It’s antithetical to personal liberty to stop at a red light. Also in libertarian parlance we get the nonaggression argument. Unmasked antivaxxers are the equivalent of someone recklessly brandishing a firearm at me with the safety off. Not even the most radical 2nd amendment aficionado would find that behavior acceptable. Spewing infective particles in my general direction is an act of blatant aggression. My vaccinations act as a bulletproof vest, but the spewer or shooter can’t be expected to know I’m protected and intent counts.

Taking the 2nd amendment to further extremes as a thought experiment we get castle doctrine and standing ground against the potential of COVID death. See where excessive freedom winds up? Crazy extremes.

@Scott321 [en.wikipedia.org]

@Scott321 [en.wikipedia.org]

@PBuck0145 Do you know what scoring an own goal is? Because your own wiki link says: “mRNA vaccines do not affect or reprogram DNA inside the cell. The synthetic mRNA fragment is a copy of the specific part of the viral RNA that carries the instructions to build the antigen of the virus (a protein spike, in the case of the main coronavirus mRNA vaccines), and is not related to human DNA. This misconception was circulated as the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines came to public prominence, and is considered a debunked conspiracy theory.”

Is that what you wanted me to read?

@PBuck0145 Immanent criticism is not false equivalence. I’m starting within a libertarian argument and ending with one that could be easily spun from an interpreted application of the 2nd amendment which I consider myself a moderate on.

And I hope despite your rhetoric here that you have or will get yourself vaccinated for your own protection and that of people you know. That hope transcends our personal differences.

@Scott321 it isnt really even a secret [vaccine-side-effects.com] except maybe an open one, and whatever one might imagine the government could be up to, the truth is way worse?

@Scott321 You deny that RNA is a component of our genetic code. Your position is that RNA modification is NOT genetic manipulation. You are passionate about your position and have every right to be so.

As for me: I am 76 years old, and therefore am highly susceptible to being harmed by the virus. My preference would be to take my chances contracting the virus and developing natural immunity, rather than submit myself to being an MRNA lab rat.

[britannica.com]

[nature.com]

Is this site especially to blame? No, I don't believe that and wasn't my primary concern. My concern in general was certain individuals in the pro science crowd who choose to belittle and make fun of those who do not agree with their views, which have not been a productive approach. As for the last part of your comment, not sure about that, perhaps I am wrong on that and hope that is indeed just the case, guess I'll find out. Some of the posts I see on here resort to dehumanizing the perceived opposition, and in the past even Admin had raised concern over said posts of that nature.

@SpikeTalon Humour is nearly always cruel, in some ways the anti-vaxer joke has simply taken the place of the race joke. Because it is still, just, PC to mock members of some political groups.

@Fernapple Valid point I suppose, but said humor has been hurting us here in America, and maintains that gap of understanding. It has been costly, and continues being so.

@Fernapple To the extent that the rabid antivaxxers are unreachable anyway and some downright toxic and combative with their rhetoric and actions I see the memes and other mockery as retributively apt and in some cases justified.

There are reachable people on the fence who aren’t in our face yelling masklessly and they need a gentler touch.

@Scott321 Agreed. There is little point to attempting dialog with those who have fingers in their ears. But it is also important not to ailienate moderates who could possibly listen.

One side of the argument has to show some diplomacy, as I've yet to ever witness two wrongs making a right.

@SpikeTalon An actively toxic portion of one side is an actual walking public health threat (aka plague rats) and proud of it. They are an unreachable lost cause. My violin is tinier per self-inflicted repercussions but my empathy increases greatly for those they impact.

The other side of the argument has been cautious for well over a year, heeding directives from the CDC, and got their shots ASAP. As far as the two wrongs goes the two sides are far from morally equivalent. One tries its hardest to score an own goal and take the team down with them. Their potential deaths or debilitation is not what I want to see but that certain memes have a dark humor pointing out such avoidable consequences merely enhances their well placed sting. Plus they speak to an understandable sense of frustration. I saw one recently with the Sixth Sense kid in a car with antivax protestors in the backdrop. I find that quite apt. Sorry.

There are reachable people and the memes or heated rhetoric shouldn’t be intended for them.

@Scott321 I repeat, mocking such people and related memes have done nothing to make the vaccine debate take a turn for the best, as such tactics keep driving people away. Also, I don't take sides, both have their agendas. Do as you may/see fit to do, I will continue in my approach to the matter as it has yielded positive results and undoubtedly could again. As for frustration goes, I'm frustrated too, but I don't go around dehumanizing others, you only maintain enemies that way.

@SpikeTalon makes it pretty obvious where the truth more likely is, too, imo…
if you have to be manipulated, coerced, cajoled, incentivized, and denigrated to do something, it is never in your best interest i guess

@bbyrd009 Valid point.

The posting of blatantly false information should be confronted, but my concern there was the approach some pro vaccine individuals take when the topic comes up. I've personally never been insulted by any memes on this site, but such goes beyond the scope of this site though, namely every day interactions among vaccinated and non-vaccinated individuals. Aside from one member on here who immediately would come to mind, I haven't seen these anti vaccine posts that some have been complaining about, maybe they either have me blocked or I have them blocked?

I don't see how memes that openly dehumanize others are somehow showing solidarity with our frontline medical workers, such memes and an overall approach to the topic like that in general are what I think is driving people away, and some of such posts aren't accurate either. That's part of the reason by the way that Admin has been somewhat disconnected from this site recently, when political-based chats come up in certain groups in comes the dehumanizing, and after awhile that got to be too much for Admin to take.

@SpikeTalon I think we need to establish "What is offensive to anti-vaxxers?" Just as we had to establish "What is exploitation?" back in the day.

Am I approved to make this post?
[agnostic.com]

or how about this one?

[agnostic.com]

What about this one?

[agnostic.com]

@UrsiMajor One is certainly free to use such memes, but memes like the Titanic one probably aren't helping out our cause any. Also, it's not just that some may find memes like that offensive, it comes down to what I pointed out above in that some would simply conclude those who push such memes are jerks/trolls who are only interested in one side of the story. Obviously, the current method of using such memes isn't helping much, still too many out there who resist getting vaccinated, we need a new strategy.

@SpikeTalon Ok, I'll leave it there in the COVID-19 area as an example of "What Not to Do", but hopefully we can put it in progressive forums or humor forums. Or are we unable to share our humor with like-minded individuals?

@UrsiMajor You are certainly free to post in groups you are comfortable with. Let me ask you this... what exactly do you get anything meaningful or productive by spreading around such posts? I ask that honestly and not to be sarcastic, I'm truly curious as to what you stand to gain besides a few fleeting laughs? Based on what I've witnessed in just the last six months alone, such posts come with a price, in this case the price being still far too many that are resisting getting vaccinated, and I can't help but think that situation surely doesn't have to be that way. Are such posts synonymous with secular humanism? Maybe they are, I wouldn't know that as I do not identify as humanist.

For what it's worth, in the past I had participated in the sharing of similar posts, and have since stepped back from doing such, and if anything have regrets as now I see such posts only help further the social divide.

@SpikeTalon Bonding with others who feel the same. It creates connections with people and brings us together.

@UrsiMajor It may bring some together, but on a larger scale it has potential to create more division in the long run. Personally, I've learned far more about others when stepping outside of echo chambers.

@SpikeTalon l have a lot of scary conservative friends in my "echo chambers" on fb. Kind of a presumptuous thing to say. You don't know me at all and perhaps your mediating skills arent what you think they are.

@UrsiMajor After over a year of cray cray and more to come still I find your Titanic meme pointed at me and it helps blow off some steam. Will it convince someone to get vaccinated? Probably not. But some are so far down the anti-vax rabbit hole they are not going to listen to reasoned discussion either (unfortunately tragic).

@UrsiMajor That comment was not directed at you personally, generally speaking echo chambers can breed a culture of misunderstanding, and by extension said division I had mentioned. Also, your Facebook groups had nothing directly to do with the previous comment, so not sure why you brought that up. I too have a mixture of friends from various political persuasions.

There's no need to get personal, I was not getting personal with you and apologize if you read into my last comment incorrectly, if you read that closely you'd see I was saying that strictly for me and if it was meant to be directed at you or anyone else I would have addressed you directly. Nothing "presumptuous" about sharing my own personal experiences, I know me better than anyone else and echo chambers don't do it for me.

@SpikeTalon Thank you. I have had to defriend conservatives when they threaten to kill my friends and family. I put up with way too much.

@UrsiMajor Sorry to hear that, no one should have to put up with threats like that, and people that do make vile threats like that should probably be in prison.

@SpikeTalon i am the leader of Anne Arundel Secular Humanists and recently backed by the AHA. I see your point that we have to be careful what we post. Maybe some of these posts should be PMs even on my personal fb page.

@UrsiMajor You need to do what you feel is best for you, and I would support whatever decision you make on the matter regardless of whether or not I may agree or disagree. Been doing alot of thinking recently on that topic, and have since backed away from doing posts that could possibly be considered dehumanizing in some way, made me realize that my approach could have been driving opposing views away, such is the case with my experiences with the unvaccinated and my attempts to change their mind. The private message route sounds like a good idea.

I know how you feel, and you certainly are a wonderful person for doing what you do. I get the feeling that if there would be a little less mockery of the vaccine hesitant, maybe more would be open minded to getting vaccinated. Easier said than done I know, it is frustrating trying to convince such people. The animosity I see these days over the topic is concerning, which is what prompted me to do this post. Keep up doing what you've been doing, knowing that most of us on here certainly have respect for your hard work and dedication.

Thank you Marionville, much appreciated.

Your choice on not reading it all. My concern wasn't directly with the anti-vaccine crowd in this case but rather how the pro science community has made little progress in that area by choosing to insult and belittle those who do not agree with them, thus causing the problems we are witnessing today. In short, a little diplomacy goes a long way.

@SpikeTalon we've gone at them with reason for 8 months. All we get back is misinformation and conspiracy theories.

@JonnaBononna Approaching them with mockery or insults is hardly reasoning with them, and is only making the situation worse. If you (not saying you personally here) personally attack someone over their views, chances are they will only resist whatever it is you say.

Thank you, and can't say I'd blame you for doing such, as you only want what's best for your son.