In the culture of victimhood, being a victim is well recognized. The victim is the hero of our time. His or her moral status is unquestioned. No one likes to be a victim, but everyone would like to have been one. Whoever is with the victim is never wrong. Being a victim, or having been a victim, grants prestige, demands to be listened to, promises and promotes recognition, activates a powerful generator of identity, of rights, of self-esteem. It immunizes against any criticism, it guarantees innocence beyond any reasonable doubt. How could the victim be guilty or responsible for anything? The victims have not done anything, they have been wronged; they do not act, they just suffer.
(Adapted from Daniele Giglioli: "Crítica de la victima" )
9
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22 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.It sounds an awful lot like someone trying to justify bad behavior by blaming people who have been victimized.
I'm definitely not buying the bit about everyone would like to be a victim.
That's a whole lotta bullshit.
JAFO
KKGator
Level 9
Oct 17, 2021
13
While I see your point, I don't think that applies to this. Assuming the role of the victim is a major ploy for manipulators. I don't see the real victims you speak for as manipulators. So it's the real versus the false. This statement refers to the false...like the liars in our midst...Trump and his followers...and your everyday manipulators who are adept at using people.
@think-beyond That is exactly my point.
Those playing victim have never actually been victimized.
They're just mad that they are being held accountable for their bad acts.
@KKGator As a Practising Psychologist and Crisis Counsellor I agree with on the point you have made.
The ARE the GENUINE article Victims and then there are the "Great Pretenders", aka "The Show Ponies, "The Limelight Seekers, etc, etc, and in Psychology parlance they often referred to as having Chronic and Incurable Munchhausen Syndrome.
Previously called being a Hypochondriac Syndrome.
It can be either,
!) First person Munchhausen's Syndrome, i.e. the patient is and knows he/;she has it, or,
2) Munchhausen's by Proxy Syndrome, where the patient refused to acknowledge they have a problem and instead use a child or another, usually unknowing family member as their 'target' victim, invents/creates way to make the victim ill and then revels in the attention gained at a hospital or Doctor's Surgery afterwards.
That sounds like a rant by the privileged to deny or minimize recognition and effects of accepting the truth of discrimination.
wordywalt
Level 9
Oct 17, 2021
10
That is a rather subjective remark.
Exactly how the West treats Israel. The victim that can do no wrong.
And so Israeli crimes must defended to expunge the historical sins of the West.
And the West hypocritically transfers its own anti-Semitism unto those who resist Israeli Apartheid and Colonialism.
Krish55
Level 8
Oct 17, 2021
10
YESSS!!!!!!!!!
Ohferpetessake, plus disgusting.
I have been a victim, and i heartily assure you I would choose differently, however 2-year olds don't have many options.
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Oct 17, 2021
9
Me as well btw, both from my mother and then from being raped by 3 men when I was 10 years old, then by my ex-wife from who I still carry many scars, both visible and physical as well as internal and psychological.
The culture of victimhood is alive and well amongst the right. Explains dog whistles such as “blue lives matter”, emergence of racially motivated “replacement theory”, anger towards political correctness because jokes about minorities and disabled are no longer tolerable, resentment towards affirmative action, misconstrual of critical race theory as a Marxist threat, jumping up and down like a toddler over masks and vaccines, the recent emergence of the “no quarter” black flag…
Cultural criticism of systemic racism, misogynistic and ableist tropes, etc isn’t itself victimhood. The reactionary response is. I think David Silverman (in Fighting God) had made a point about what happens when a pedestal is removed. The culturally dominant resent losing their privilege:
“Religion demands a pedestal—in the case of the United States, Christianity demands a pedestal higher than every other religion based solely on privilege and tradition.[…] We are the last out-group on which all religions can agree. If they support equal treatment for atheists, they in effect advocate stepping off their pedestals (if atheism is equal to religions, religions have no advantages or pedestals over anyone at all), and so our equality endangers their legitimacy.”
In this atheism becomes yet another identity politics too, just as with BLM or transpeople advocates. Our existence victimizes believers. March onward into the War on Christmas.
Scott321
Level 7
Oct 17, 2021
9
This smells just like ‘all lives matter’.
skado
Level 9
Oct 17, 2021
8
@Matias Bullshit. That's what it is.
The people you refer to as "perceptive", are simply scared because they know they're losing their privilege. Most of them have been bullies, and have grown complacent with what they believe is their "right" to bully anyone they deem "less than".
Bullies have always had a problem with being told to stop.
‘All lives matter’ is just a memorable, recent manifestation of victim envy on the part of the unconscious privileged class, which is as old as class-segregated societies.
Not to say that victim sympathizers don’t sometimes go overboard. People on all sides tend to think ‘if a little is good, then more is better’.
But the problem of the oppressor class begging for victim status is just plain vile.
The only possible causes are ignorance or malice.
And do they not, or is your more important that that of everyone else around the planet?
There is I think some truth in that, but it is far too oversimplified, becoming a straw man view of public opinion, which is far more complex than that. It reads like the outpourings of an author with an 'issue' to grind.
Fernapple
Level 9
Oct 17, 2021
7
There is a Culture of White Privilege that exists independent and long before these demogogues.
It was this culture that produced colonialism, imperialism, slavery, segregation, et cetera.
The Culture of White Privilege and Bourgeois Privilege continues. Identifying their continuing atrocities and victims is not a matter of claiming victimhood.
Your writer fails by not distinguishing between false victimhood and real victims. The greatest example of false victimhood is committed those who claim antisemitism when Israeli Apartheid and Colonialism are attacked.
By not pointing out any of the above, your writer is merely promoting White European Privilege.
@Matias Could there be some ‘labeling to dismiss’ of activists who want culture to change? People who advocate a moral arc of progress become status quo warriors when that arc suddenly leaves them behind. Problems didn’t cease with civil and voting rights legislation in the 60s, the ADA in the 90s or same-sex marriage more recently. We seem to be in a place where any further progress is likened to Maoism and reeducation camps, though such tropes aren’t novel.
Ryo1:
I was thinking the same; too broad a statement to make any comment on...
After reading the responses I think it is a good idea to distinguish between the real victims and the false who are just master manipulators. You can't put an innocent black man who has just been shot for no reason, in the same category of the user who is confusing you to gain his own ends.
And for those of us who have been manipulated and have been made a victim, our only response, when possible, is to refuse to be a victim. Keeping our thoughts clear really helps because confusion is their tool. That's why the above statement is helpful.
So you and I who have been victimized, let's raise our fists and call their bluff and survive and flourish.
In the meantime, because we have activated our strengths, we can speak for the real victims and try to help them overcome.
think-beyond
Level 7
Oct 17, 2021
5
Sadly few do. Even Tolstoy observed that a successful life results from not putting your head above the parapet.
@FrayedBear Dull and very droll as well not in good taste imo, whilst discudssing this very sensitive subject.
You ought to be absolutely ashamed of yourself, but, imo, you are bereft even of that human trait.
@Triphid I haven't read of your submissions to the parliament advocating lifting Australian law into the what most of the world had for its citizens 30-50 years ago.
Oh but of course you probably think that all you had to do was recognise Aboriginals as human beings to be included in the census in 1967 was all that you had to do?
@FrayedBear You know @Frayed Bear I went against my better judgement and willing gave you a THIRD chance and what did you do, BLEW it to hell and back. Hence before I got to bed tonight I shall be blocking your sorry annoying, grumbling, groaning and moaning arse permanently.
@Triphid The gutless cowards way - blocking.
Troll?
Bullying doesn't work.
Put up or shut up Triphid. I've suggested that you photo what you object to, forward it & I will then test it against my records to see if they are the same.
It has been suggested that you are psychotic. Blocking certainly saves me from being subjected to your stalking & beliefs.
@FrayedBear No by no means cowardly or gutless, protecting mu sanity and self-respect from yo, your incessant negativity, pessimism, doom and gloom, FALSE interpretations of news, etc, etc, and a simple wish to be able to converse with people who ARE NOT, unlike you imo, to use their BRAINS for something other a means to keep their ears separated.
In a count of # (five minutes, YOU shall excluded from my contacts, this time until either Hell freezes over or the Mythical Jesus returns, which ever comes first and I will not be holding breath btw.
Thanks for posting this. It's a great food for thought.
Of course, being a victim was an effective tool for Hitler. And since we have a Hitler disciple infecting our country in his quest to invade the White House once again, he and his sheep, are willing and ready to use this ploy. If we appropriately deal with these criminals, they will stir up vigorously to protect their "martyrs." My humble opinion is that we have to deal with them severely and let them play the role of the victim to the hilt.
think-beyond
Level 7
Oct 17, 2021
7
@Matias Actually, they were masters at manipulative propaganda. So what you say is partly true as is the fact that they also played the victim and made the German people feel the victim. Trump has carefully studied this and it is obvious that he is using this on us. It is working for almost half of our country. There's a lot more to this. He uses their prejudices, their blind worship of celebrity and plays "poor me" along with all his boasting.
Truly shameful. Could only be written or supported by a predator.
LovinLarge
Level 8
Oct 17, 2021
7
In our society, America, it has been my observation that for every person that makes a career out of being a victim, or claiming to be, there are one or more people who make it their mission to unjustly blame innocent, true victims, for their victimhood, so it goes both ways. In America, I think we still tend to scapegoat and unfairly blame victims more often than they deserve. It's part of how we hate losers, all want to be winners, and envy or worship the winners. So victims are usually seen as reaping suffering that is their own damn fault, etc., esp. when it comes to the economic system. We worship capitalism, so the victims or losers in that system are dismissed as lazy, defective, and just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, get religion or the right values, and start living right. Criticizing or blaming the system here is not seen as appropriate or patriotic.
TomMcGiverin
Level 8
Oct 17, 2021
6
Being a victim of your own stupidity, contradicts everything you wrote. The victim simply qualifies for the Darwin Awards. We criticize and make fun of these people. I don't want to be a victim and I'm sure there are many others who feel the same way.
Do you want to be a victim? If so, I think you need to reevaluate your life.
nogod4me
Level 8
Oct 17, 2021
3
If others want to victimise you how do you propose not being victimised?
Are you openly living the free life of an atheist or agnostic without being discriminated against?
@FrayedBear Consider the source, if it's a believer (including conspiracy theorists, racists, etc.), that's like a fresh turd telling you that you stink. Who cares what they believe or think.
Do you have an example of being victimized? Most believers I have confronted just walk away, although I have had a few walk away very fast.
@nogod4me In my own life: police perjury that I lived somewhere else written in the affidavit of charges in order to prejudice the magistrate against me, perjury by my accuser & supporters in their affidavits to the court, refusal of the court to allow me to speak in my defense, further perjury by the police in supplementary affidavit, 18 months later refutation of her accusations by the accuser of her accusation. The police 6 months later dropped the charge & substituted charge of breaching the original, obtained by police, conspirators & accuser's perjury, magistrate's order by publishing anonymised comment on the case which resulted in the accuser recognising her projection onto me of her own assault of me & writing her affidavit confirming hers & her witnesses collusion to frame me for her crime. She & her conspirators have never been charged. I was fined for so called contempt of court.
@nogod4me & that is the least of the incidents that I have experienced here in Australia.
@FrayedBear Imo, YOU, @FrayedBear would be unchallenged EXPERT, in your own opinion that is, of being a victim, would you not?
@Triphid adding mind reading to your list of qualifications now are you? Or just as usual not reading what I write?
@FrayedBear In read what you wrote, BUT can actually REMEMBER what you wrote?
@Triphid yes
@FrayedBear Yeah bright and I have 3 legs each longer than the other 5 as well.
Is there ANYTHING at ALL that you haven't yet found a reason, imaginary or otherwise, to grumble and groan about?
@Triphid I suggest you photo what you are reading & send it to me for comparison. We could have different presentations.
There are VICTIMS and there ARE victims, but there is very great gap between the two of them.
Yes, a REAL victim suffers and endures, most often, silently, BUT they do NOT wish to become Heroes, they merely, in 98% of cases, want the wrongs done to them in their lives accounted and set to rights.
Then there are, as often call them, "The Great Pretenders," they have the art of creating a persona and history that is rarely rivaled and, for the most part, mostly completely fictitious, they are the ones who seek to be classed as Heroes, seek to lauded, search out empathetic people, depend upon the sympathies, etc, of the unwary and unsuspecting, they are SO adept at it that they can convince entire Juries, Courtrooms and Judges, the Media and even the public at large of anything and everything they so desire for them to believe completely.
Triphid
Level 9
Oct 18, 2021
2
Which of the disciples wrote the first book of the New Testament? A 5 star award?
@FrayedBear Truth, NONE of them wrote the Gospels, they were ALL devised and written by Scribes under watchful eyes of the self-appointed Bishops AFTER the Council of Nicaea, 325 C.E.
@Triphid I bow to your knowledge because I'm too disinterested to verify it. My comment simply needs updating 300+ years.
@FrayedBear I'd give my most honest opinion but I feel I'd be far better off trying to extinguish a bush-fire by pissing on it, to be brutally honest.
Nonsense, just look at all the women who are beaten by their husbands. Who listens to them exactly?
Jolanta
Level 9
Oct 17, 2021
3
Australia is one of the barbaric countries along with America, S. Korea and Israel that circumcises young boys. Unlike female genital mutilation which has been criminalised male circumcision isn't. Fortunately in the last 25 years there has been some reduction in the practice. It is my opinion that much violence against women is due to the fact that these men have been circumcised and ultimately seek payback for the violence committed against them when they should have been protected not violated.
In Australia it is the men who have been conned into believing that women do not commit violence. September 2021 [m.facebook.com]
Australian men generally have had violence perpetrated against them from birth.
@FrayedBear Not exactly so, @FrayedBear, but the percentage of Wives/Spouse, etc, abusing their spouse/husbands/partners, etc, is, according to Statistic Male Perpetrators = 37.325 %, Female Perpetrators (as reported to Police = 22.432%, un-reported to Police but sought medical attention none-the-less = 36.891% on average across the entire country.
@Triphid September 2021 [m.facebook.com]
@Triphid And please do identify the source of your data.
@FrayedBear Survey done by several Organisations, including the A.M.A. of Australia, Beyond Blue, Salvation Army, the Australian Institute of Psychology and Psychiatry, the Lifeline Organisation, the Red Cross and numerous others as well.
It was run over 8 years from January 2008 until January 2017 inclusive.
@FrayedBear I wonder what horrible things women have done to you, and you poor big man not being able to defend yourself.
I think the "culture of victimhood" to which we're alluding here is that of people who actually do have some power and access, blaming their ills on "everyone out to get them". More than that, these people blame the actual victims for standing up for themselves. To take an example, Protestant Christianity is the most widespread religion in America, yet they also have a huge "victim" complex whenever they can't get their way, due to that pesky 1st Amendment. It's not that they want to impose religion on others, they claim, it's them being prevented from exercising their "rights" to dominate the public square (by de facto imposing their religion on others).
It surely a matter of context and every victim may be classed as victim of a crime or a victim of circumstances. Doubtless, there are those who have made a career out of being a victim at the tax payer's expense.
ASTRALMAX
Level 8
Oct 17, 2021
3
I have worked with the poor and elderly all my life and I have been poor and probably will be again as I am in a process of becoming disabled. It may seem to you that the little relief that is given to the poor and elderly is "at the tax payers expense" but the way I see it, we as a society have a responsibility to care for those who cannot take care of themselves and that includes, children, elderly, mentally and physically disabled and the poor. I am so sorry you do not see it that way.
Ryo1:
Hi MyTVC15, I'm afraid that @ASTRALMAX isn't wrong. He and I live in England where we have a sophisticated welfare system. It is sophisticated but unfortunately not perfect, and like any other system, there are some loopholes in it. As much as we, as tax payers, would like to support the idea that we must help the disadvantaged members of society and as much as we would like to believe that everybody who applies for benefits and allowances is genuine, there are some people who abuse the system. The UK government has a unit within itself which tracks down such individuals. It is a sad reality.
@MyTVC15 I don't think that @ASTRALMAX was disrespecting those who are elderly, disabled, poor due to unemployment due to economic downturns and unavoidable retrenchments, etc, etc, BUT he is correct when he says about those make it their goal in life to profit from playing the victim or those who are to bone idle to bother to work and bludge off the system.
I could easily sit here and list at least 40+ names of people of ALL Ethnicities that I know for a 100% certainty who are bludging off the Australian welfare system and have doing for decades as well.
I'm guessing that "the culture of victimhood" means exaggerated victimhood, or a bandwagon of people finally coming forward with tales of being wronged by someone in power, sometimes real and sometimes fabricated or exaggerated.
Some people do enjoy falsely claiming to be a victim for the attention or to get someone they dislike in trouble, because it's true that especially in sexual harassment or assault, the victim is assumed credible unless proven otherwise.
I do think it's erroneous to claim that "everyone wants to have been [a victim]." After having been the target of a few misdeeds, I can sure say I learned my lessons as much or more than if I had only just heard of these things happening.
I'm not sure the "victim" is the "hero" of our time, but those who sacrifice to bring honesty, change or justice to those who may continue to abuse are heroes in my book. Those of us who speak out in quiet ways are also heroes, in the way of trying to stand up for what is right and respectful to all. So, there is some truth to it - except for those who falsely claim victimhood, if that is the claim in the paragraph posted.
Also, a quick note in my experience with "victimhood" let me just share this anecdote.
Years ago, I had to defend my ex-husband's actions regarding sexual harassment charges brought by girls he was coaching, for which he was guilty. I had to play the character witness in his defense, and even though the charges were exaggerated and blown a bit out of proportion, I knew them to be true and my ex-husband was clearly out of line, as was truly his character, however I had to stand by him to protect our family name, sad but true. (Our children attended the same high school.) The girls accusing him got their way in that he was fired and the coach who put them up to the stunt took his place. It was just a minor setback for my ex-husband, as he was recently inducted into the coaching hall of fame, with a big awards ceremony in his honor. The charges were only a small embarrassment for him, but far more so for our children and to a lesser extent me. It's all a learning experience on treating people fairly and respectfully. A lesson learned by all in that case.
I said all that to say this. The stories coming forward do create awareness for a more positive future, even though charges are difficult to bring to light by the target of the offenses. For every wrong that is committed, very few actually go reported and resolved.
If some get reported untruthfully, hopefully the truth will come out eventually. Honesty is the best policy.
Julie808
Level 8
Oct 17, 2021
1
In my book although you were utterly wrong in supporting your louse of a husband you were wronged long before that. Therefore what is sad for me is that you did not live in an environment that allowed you to remove yourself from his toxic presence.
@FrayedBear 2FrayedBear, there are the Stories that are 100% unadulterated TRUTH/s, then there are the others, they are worth about as much salt as a chunk of rancid rotting pork.
Sadly it takes years of training and practice to even come close to being able tell the two apart.
@Triphid Are you saying that Julie's story is not worth any salt?
@FrayedBear Not in the least, I am referring to the countless other so-called "tales of woe" that I have heard from these "Great Pretenders" over last couple of decades, they were and still are the times wasted when someone else was desperately in need of my help but I, most regrettably was unavailable.
If memory serves correct my "Pretender " files contain approx. 160+ of them.
@Triphid Are there many left who will study the art of discernment as suggested by you?
@Triphid I thought that there are far more than 160 tales from the dreamtime. Are they one file or just simply all dismissed by you?
@FrayedBear As I stated before and earlier here, it vis something that we, as Psychologists and Counsellors LEARN as we go along the road of helping those truly in need.
I like to call my ability, " My Bullshit Alarm."
And it works very well I might add.
@FrayedBear WTF does the Indigenous Dreamtime Tales have to do with the subject at hand here and now may one ask?
Have you DRIFTED off onto yet another of those psycho tangents of yours yet again?
Then, imo, YOU were manipulated, quite skilfully by both your deviant partner and his Legal Team as well.
Bear NO guilt upon your own shoulders, you WERE up against Experts and, imo, totally unawares of what they doing to and with you.
@Triphid Ah, you are a psychologist now? Last I heard you were a Doctor of Philosophy, before that it was an ambo, before that it was a train driver, before that it was an outback truckie carrying exploding dynamite, before that it was an ASIO operative, before that a juvenile ASIO suspected subversive.
Each story accepted at the face value of its relay - inconsequential to my well being other than in the few minutes entertainment that it gave and like all stories unless containing life changing epiphany for me filed in the back of my mind or forgotten like the countless movies watched since childhood.
@Triphid Why don't you answer my question?
@FrayedBear FY\I, I hold 3 Doctorate Degrees, 1 in Theology and Comparative Modern Religions, 1 in Philosophy and 1 in Psychology and am working on my 4th. and 5th. Doctorates at present.
And yes, in my almost 68 years of life I have held many a job, my first at the age of 8 years old was a Cinder-box Cleaner on the Silverton Tramways, in actually a fully fledged Railways but had operate under the Tramways name due to N.S.W. government Rulings btw, from there I was promoted to Messenger carry the Roster notes to Engine Crews and Train Guards., then I was taught to be an Assistant Fireman, stoking the Steam operated locomotives, including the very big W class Main-line Locos or, the 4,6,4, class Locos as per the register of wheel configurations.
One of the 3 remains here at the Tramways Museum in Blende St, the other 2 were taken away to Peterborough, Sth. Australia where one was used to restore the other and now it runs on the Pichi-Richi Railway line service in Sth. Australia.
@FrayedBear How the F*** am I expected to answer YOUR question/s when I'm NOT always adhered to a computer or whatever as you seem to be?
Just a little FREE counselling here for you FrayedBear, try getting a like OUTSIDE of your domicile, meet with others, try to make friends, learn about the rest of the world around you, trust me, it can expand your horizons, enrich your life and, if you work at it, even improve you, your health and the ways you look at everything around you.
BUT, I assume this suggestion/advice will be as nothing more than water off of ducks to you ultimately, won't it?
After reading the post and all the responses...just remember that #1) Justice is BLIND...#2) If we remove the abilities(even the smallest ability) of the Defense OR the Prosecution then the scales tip in one direction or the other which defeats the purpose of the the concept of "A Fair and Just Sytem of Law". Yes it seems unfair when someone is raked over the coals because the Defense Attorney say is exercising their duties to the fullest extent of the Law...ask yourself this...what if he is correct ? ... Do we simply not allow the Defense the ability to seek Justice ? I don't like what happens any more than anyone else but if we remove the abilities of either the Prosecution OR the Defense then we are reverting to MOB RULE. How many people have been incarcerated AND EXECUTED because of POOR DEFENSE...or CORRUPTED PROSECUTION...or CORRUPTED JURIES? It isnt a perfect system but it works most of the time. If a better system can be created then we of course would move in that direction. But until the time comes when we can read people's minds...this is what we have to work with. Namaste
phoenixone1
Level 8
Oct 17, 2021
2
This is what I would have said and, now, don't have to. Thanks. I will only add that All Lives Matter was pitted against BLM back in 2014. I marched in Seattle, with BLM, and remember because I was saying ALM. They gave me funny looks and some challenged me on it. After reflection I realized the urgency of focusing on black lives and fell into harmony with the chant. BLM isn't saying that not all lives matter. Only that they need to be heard for theirs.
My rule is to accept the Jury's finding. If it differs with my own opinion, based on much less than the Jury witnessed, then whoopdie-do. Law is what's served. Not me.
if a woman cries abuse, then she is automatically telling the truth, no matter what
toxic masculinity of course
a woman can cry victim all the way to the top and theres nothing u can do
ur psychological ur emotional ur physical and ur financial health are ur true sources of ur wealth and they are best safeguarded by staying single
HeAdAkE
Level 6
Oct 17, 2021
2
MizJ:
BS. What were you wearing? Were you drinking? Why were you alone? Those are just an example of the many questions that those that are raped are sometimes subjected to, both by police and in court. Those questions blame the victim. Also there have been a few high profile cases, a couple of which were on college campuses that the perpetrator was sentenced to little or no jail time. Why destroy this boy's life for one mistake was used to justify a ridiculously light sentence in one.
@MizJ In which case all Americans should be in jail for the atrocities commited by their military forces around the world who have murdered millions. Likewise the Israelis for their behaviour in Palestine, the Chinese in Tibet, the fathers denied parenting of their children . . .
I came across someone today who had a unique perspective, a current professor I think he is, Zizek. He was discussing this very idea, illustrating the idea by repeating an old Jewish joke. He is slightly difficult to understand as he has a thick accent, but he seems to have a unique perspective and is expressing something that needs to be heard. He seems to understand clearly some of the psychological underpinnings of the thought processes of this modern day and age. Some of his ideas he expressed in another video reminded me of some ideas I had had in response to another post that you had posted regarding the current push for the transgender movement. I didn't post my thoughts at the time on that post, because I don't have the academic background that Zizak has, so mine is just opinion. With him he tied the ideas to psychology, he clearly expressed it, though not saying exactly what I was thinking, very similar idea. I think Zizek is someone who is informed and knowledgeable, at least in some regards. He is someone to listen to, even if you don't agree with everything he says. I think discussing and being aware of how we as a
society use the idea of victimhood is highly relevant.
Flowerwall
Level 7
Oct 18, 2021
1
Do you refer to this man [en.wikipedia.org]
And a joke contained here?
@FrayedBear I don't know much about him. It was him, yes. Today when I heard him speak, for the very first time, he sounded logical, intelligent. My opinions can change quickly about people, however, and I have already seen something that is making me question my initial judgment.
@Flowerwall In what way?
@FrayedBear It's not clear. I don't know enough to comment further right now. I want to read a little more on some of the concepts he references, maybe read more in general. At some point I may be able to explain those thoughts more clearly.
@FrayedBear I wanted to get back to this because I don't think I explained my original point very well at all. As I said I came across Zizek for the first time, I don't remember how now, but in the short video I watched he opens with the Jewish joke. He uses it to illustrate a wider point that we have to be aware about who we identify as a victim in society because the label of victim and those that identify with the side of the victimcan then take a position of moral high ground and be beyond reproach. This is not to say there are no such things as victims, people have never been wronged, there are no problems, but more a reminder that we really have to pause and focus on how we are placing the label and identifying situations.
Another problem with the victimhood mentality that I see is that it can create or affirm a sense of powerlessness in the victim rather than empowering the people it's meant to include. Zizek talked a little bit about the importance of identifying universality among people rather than focusing on the differences and it is important to state the idea, but also not be unaware of the true reality, imo.
One more point, for instance the post I created yesterday. (It's here "So do we want more of this?") It is an example of how if we overstate a victimhood status or over compensate for people who may have been victims at some point of racism and/or poverty and are now very, very likely drug addicts stealing from the local pharmacies we are IGNORING the REAL VICTIMS who are the poor, possibly many minorities, in the same communities who will now not have pharmacies to go to. This type of blindness to our own folly is mind boggling to me. How do people allow the government to get away with it? Do we just throw our hands up and say "The problem is unavoidable". NO!We should NOT. The problem can be fixed. It requires people demanding MORE from the govt. We need solutions.
@Flowerwall I suggest that probably anything up to 90% of Americans are victims because of your national stupidity regarding health, education, housing & social welfare including wages. On all fronts you are robbed.
@FrayedBear I will say there was a national studpidity regarding healthcare. We have Obama to thank for fixing that. What utopia do you originate from where all the aspects of society are in perfect alignment and functioning at such high levels that you can say all of ours render us victims?
Also, I started and didn't finish, regarding Zizek. I think I sounded previously like I am endorsing him or his views. Not true. I don't know much of anything about him, and may very likely never know. It was just on this topic of victimhood he made sense. On the topic of trangenderism, because I mentioned above, I want to clarify I only heard one opinion of his. I agreed with that. I think he has a lot more out there on the topic and I don't know what it is, again may never know myself, so don't take it as endorsement of views.
@Flowerwall My understanding is that it has not been fixed - that many are still not covered medically, that many are still bankrupted because of medical bills.
I read that many live in poverty requiring charity food to survive or are homeless.
I've just been told by an American correspondent on a pension that she has had to buy a tube of ointment for $300. I would pay $6.60 here. I thought you said that Obama fixed your health system, If that's fixing thi!gs you are crazily deluded into being a victim without knowing it.
@FrayedBear How much are you paying in taxes there? Does over or close to 50% of a person's paycheck get handed off to the government where you are? Yes, at times medications do cost money. But if your contact is a news correspondent likely can easily afford $300 for med because under your system you are likely handing it away to govt every week anyway. (Just realized I read that wrong, so there are other options for people in a tight financial situation) For the poor there are likely many options to get same medicine for much cheaper or even free AND they get to keep vast majority of their paychecks. Prohibitive taxation is completely UnAmerican. We do not want to give half of our labor away to the govt for free. The govt is already stealing away our constitutional rights with puppets in Hollywood acting to facilitate the theft.
I can go into the other issues you brought up at a later time.
@Flowerwall My American correspondent tells me that she has never had a job in her life. She's now nearly 40.
Here the rate of tax is in the photo. On top of that there is a 2% Medicare levy which pays for all doctors hospitals radiology pathology a&e
@FrayedBear This is a chart showing TAXABLE income, not TOTAL income.
@Flowerwall Total income is taxable in the bands shown. So if you earn say $50k per year you pay $5092 plus (5000x 32.5 cents) plus 2% of $50000 for health care. Someone with a total income of $195000 pays $51667 + (15000 x 45 cents) plus 2% of $195000 for medicare. These amounts can be further reduced by special rebates for remote area working, children, education, work tools, equipment depreciation, business rental, etc.
Rates which are nowhere near half of anyone's income but of course far greater than the rate of tax paid by corporations.
@Flowerwall so yes all people in Australia are victimised compared to corporations & the very rich who work through corporations & trusts!
@FrayedBear Not familiar with Australia system but read this. "There is no doubt that the United States takes the lead in world-class healthcare research. The U.S. runs the most clinical trials of any OECD country. The FDA has a shorter drug approval process than many other countries, including Australia. This means that new treatments are more readily accessible. It also leads the world in cancer treatments in some areas. And the U.S. has one of the highest 5-year survival rates for breast cancer and colon cancer [5].
If you have adequate coverage, the wait time for a specialist appointment or elective surgery is among the lowest of all OECD countries [5]."
@Flowerwall And the cost will probably bankrupt you driving you to suicide. USA has a population about 15x greater than Australia. The benefits that you mention are not available to the American poor. I've watched documentaries showing people travelling hundreds of kilometres to access charitable free healthcare for things ranging from spectacles, teeth caries, diabetes . . .
3 years ago after living for 13 years with a badly crushed knee resulting from a hit & run motorist I was given a prosthetic knee in a public hospital. Within 16 hours of release from the operating theatre I was marching up & down the corridor, not just forwards but sideways as well. I was, using the safety rail on the wall, performing squats to within 6" off the carpet. I was home2 days later.
In comparison a lovely correspondent on here took 10 weeks to get off the 4'6" walking frame they were leading her around on. A year later when she had the other knee done I believe that her surgeon was situated here in Australia operating a robot through the internet to the theatre in the US. She was never comfortable with her first knee replacement though.
@FrayedBear "And the cost will probably bankrupt you driving you to suicide. " This is not true for everyone. We DO have programs for the poor. It's called Medicaid and there are also free clinics. Some states do not have Medicaid as accessible and I will agree the people there need to put pressure on the government to make it happen. I will even agree to expand income limits. Above a certain income and with the availability of other coverage options there should be plenty of acceptable insurance choices.
"It is a talent of the weak to persuade themselves that they suffer for something when they suffer from something; that they are showing the way when they are running away; that they see the light when they feel the heat; that they are chosen when they are shunned." - Eric Hoffer
nogod4me
Level 8
Oct 20, 2021
0
Far more crucial than what we know or do not know is what we do not want to know.
Eric Hoffer
@FrayedBear Exactly!
We lie the loudest when we lie to ourselves. Eric Hoffer
@nogod4me unfortunately like labeling people who are making their grievances known "querelants" [en.wikipedia.org]
the labeler is most likely applying Hoffer's two aphorisms of "not wanting to know" & "lying to yourself" rather than intelligently responding for the benefit of all (Cipolla's definition of intelligent vs. stupid people).
Most people laugh at the suitcase carrier who has the case burst open spilling the contents in the middle of a 4 lane highway. Few will stop & help in the retrieval of the property or the physical safety of those retrieving. Most laughing & walking by with eyes averted.
Your original Hoffer quote could be that of a mocker & stupid person (Hoffer).
@FrayedBear Your comment sounds like it could be that of a mocker & stupid person.
@nogod4me Returned like an uncaring narcissist. LMAO
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