It was never even remotely on the cards that Ukraine would be admitted into NATO membership..that is complete nonsense. However, due to the law of unintended consequence, Putin has managed by invading Ukraine to expand NATO by at least two new members in Sweden and Finland! Too bad Vladimir…so far that plan to curtail NATO expansion seems to have backfired somewhat..oops!

@Marionville After the 2014 coup NATO flooded Ukraine with trainers and weaponry. CIA admitted they created 12 "stations" along the border with Russia. 12000 people died via Ukrainian's fighting Ukrainian's from 2014 until Russia stepped in to stop it in 2022. A civil war.

Honestly Marion, I like you and understand your life partner was a military man and understand you defend his legacy and you do have my admiration as a person. But this is what I am talking about re indoctrination. I did not experience the full on USSR regime because of my age and location but totally agree the USSR was a despicable regime and no-one is more glad it is gone than Russians themselves. But it is gone and Russia has no intention of invading Europe, borne out by the size of their military. They no longer wish to spread the ideology of communism. All they insisted on was a neutral border country.

"It was never even remotely on the cards that Ukraine would be admitted into NATO membership..that is complete nonsense".
I'm sorry but that is 100% completely wrong. GW Bush announced that was the intention, for NATO to include Georgia and Ukraine, in 2008. Undeniable evidence on that. You just need to look.

@puff You are misinformed, my husband was never in the military.

It may have been sustained as a cherished wish by Ukraine to join NATO, and I’ve no doubt some double talking was done by the USA and others which encouraged them in that ambition…but the reality of them joining was almost nil and also likewise the membership of the EU. I do have that on good authority from a friend in the UK Diplomatic service…who is a reliable source, the reason given was precisely because Russia wouldn’t countenance membership of eirher organisation, and keeping Russia onside was more important than admitting Ukraine to NATO or the EU.

@Marionville I wrote a reply but forget to press send. DOH! Oh well, here we go again
Firstly apologies regarding your partner. My bad. Perhaps I was thinking of your son?

Your friend is wise and a shame that policy was not followed. but I would dispute that Russia was against Ukraine joining the EU. They wanted to join themselves. My understanding is that until Ukraine got a handle on corruption and had met other preconditions for EU membership it was never going to happen. I think the EU got burnt letting former Soviet republics join too quick without basic European structures of governance etc which caused problems they now wished to avoid with new memberships. Russia has always been against Ukraine joining any military block and insisted they remain neutral in that respect. Defense blocks need an enemy, real or imagined, to justify their existence. NATO has a habit of when a new country joins, they get new military bases and Russia does not want a militarised border. Ukraine especially because that border includes the Black Sea, so they insisted on neutrality. I find these concerns quite reasonable and you only have to look at Finland, a new NATO member, now has 15 bases where the US is setting up shop. That's what NATO does. In truth, Ukraine was DeFacto NATO since 2014 when NATO/ US weapons trainers and arms began pouring into the country. Russians are not stupid.

Putin is a complicated character. Ex KGB in the USSR. This means that during that time he studied the enemy, was familiar with how they operate etc. The USSR fell but that enemy did not, the opposite to the KGB. The CIA. His elder brother died from famine along with many other Russians due to poor governance. I don't believe he is pro conflict at all and would prefer diplomatic solutions. Putin and Xi from China are championing a new multipolar world in BRICS, one where there is no homogenous control by any nation. To champion this yet plan to invade Europe makes absolutely no sense and the Chinese are not dumb eg China would not be involved if Russia was playing a double game like that. Putin is nationalist for sure and wants Russia to be a strong nation. But this does not mean he wants to expand territory and take over other countries.

Putin was an allie of the "West" in the war on terror. He fell in the bad books after responding to Assad's call for help in Syria. I firmly believe he did this after witnessing what happened in Libya. I still find it amusing that US/ NATO forces were unable to stop the truck convoys stealing Syrian oil for daesh/ ISIS but once Russia intervened, they were stopped in a few days. Putin's Russia was getting closer to Europe and he had a very good relationship with Merkel which I found surprising but tells you something about Putin's diplomatic skills. As he was former East German KGB and her an East German, you would assume they would not be overly fond of each other. But they got Nord Stream happening, advantageous to both countries. I think Putin felt very betrayed by Merkel once it became obvious the Minsk Agreement was not negotiated in good faith, admitted by Merkel herself.

I never believed Russiagate or Trump was Putin's puppet for the following reason. Trump is a psychopath. He is charismatic, quite intelligent (zero emotional intelligence) but unpredictable and will always choose self advantage. This does not make a good puppet, can't control them. And they will turn on you in a second if it advantages them. Not good double agent material as they may well turn around and bite you. The best you can hope with Trump is his vanity will drive him to make his place in history as the one who saved America from warmonger neocons. But as a psycho, who knows what he would do in a second term. As psycho's go, Hillary Clinton scares me far more than Trump.

Whilst on Hillary Clinton, she was fined around $8000 for using campaign funds to commission the Steele Dossier which started all the Russiagate crap in the first place and which has now been thoroughly discredited. Now this is a very similar charge that Trump just became a convicted felon for. Cooking the books.
Irony.

No I can’t agree with the school of thought that says Putin was provoked into invading Ukraine by expansionist NATO and the USA. It was not seriously on the cards that Ukraine would ever be considered to be admitted as a NATO member. I know the history of this region and that my own country and the USA are far from innocent, but I cannot go along with the idea that NATO and the USA & other western nations are to blame for Putin invading Ukraine.

The majority of Ukrainians wanted to be closer allied to the EU and other Western European countries and when their elected President Viktor Yanukovich decided to go in the opposite direction with closer ties to Russia instead…that was when he was overthrown in first a popular protest by the people and then when elected MPs voted to remove him in parliament…I’d call it democracy in action. He and Russia may call that a coup but I’d say it was a popular democratic uprising in fact it’s called The Maidan Revolution. It may have had US backing…I’ve no doubt it did, but the point you seem to be missing is that it wasn’t an invading army who imposed regime change on the people of Ukraine, the people themselves removed a President who reneged on what the people and Parliament wanted and tried to impose closer ties to Russia against the will of his people. Putin was mad and has been determined from that day, first by instigating and funding an uprising to annexe Crimea and the Dombass regions, and then when he thought the west was at its weakest just after the Pandemic he calculated (wrongly as it turned out) that he could invade Ukraine with little or no resistance from Ukraine and disunity and disagreement from the west on how to respond. NATO would not intervene as Ukraine wasn’t a member and so he thought it would be easy. Big mistake on his part.

Let’s put aside all the many past evils perpetrated by the US and the west and just admit that Putin and Putin alone is responsible for this invasion and war, and that he made a bad mistake which Russian and Ukrainian lives are paying the price for in obscene numbers. Putin has in fact managed by his actions to expand NATO on Russia’s borders by galvanising Sweden and Finland into joining….something that they had always swerved from in the past. They can see the benefit of being under the protective umbrella of NATO and the risk to all countries neighbouring Russia which are not. Had Ukraine been a member of NATO Putin never would have dared invade, and you can understand the nervousness in the Baltic States too, which is another reason that it’s imperative that Russia is not allowed to win this war. If he had taken Ukraine with impunity there’s no telling where he’d have set his sights on next.

@Marionville One thing is for sure: you did not watch Jeffrey Sachs and so cannot comment on what he said. I do not agree with yours views which to me are typical Western propaganda. Had you watched Sachs you'd see someone who really knows what he is talking about. The Canadian government is almost as bad as US and UK but is facing a lot of disagreement from the Canadian people. There are many of us who are willing to fight the WEF and Schwab.

@rogerbenham I’m not watching something that’s over 2 hours long just because you think I should….i think that’s unreasonable. Anyway I have listened to many differing points of view already…and I resent the implication that I am only voicing western propaganda. When you say you’re willing to fight the WEF and Schwab I’ve no idea what that means in plain understandable English. Are you part of a protest movement?

@Marionville I have been protesting since I was 14.

WEF = World Economic Forum a neocon organisation founded by Klauss Scgwab to turn the world into a fascist ctate. He organises annualk meetings and trains world leaders tyo his viewpoint. He is fanrastically dangerous. I do not understand why the Bildenberg Group allow it though several of them are in it. All countries will lose sovereignty. It will be a total control concept.
You are far from being alone being unaware of such a powerful organisation. Our PM and deputy are part of it. A cashless society is one of their aims as a digital currency can be totally contolled at individual levels by the government. They want total control. Hitler's ideas never dies. Trump supposedly has his writings beside his bed. Trump often quotes Hitler.

@rogerbenham I know who Schwab and the WEF is…what I don’t know is what YOU intend to do to about opposing it. You must think I’m dim and don’t know what is going on in the world outside of music. Wrong…big mistake, I’m very much abreast of political, environmental, ecological, and social issues in the world. I was raised to question everything and to take an interest in everything.

@Marionville Good

@rogerbenham But I’m still none the wiser about what you intend to do to overthrow the WEF as you indicated you were doing!

@Marionville Protestgroup joining, signing stuff. Not much. The fire of my youth has wained but I am very aware of the evil machinations.

Critical thought is the missing element in the education of most people…the education systems are basically failing our children. Add to that the indoctrination of the children who are educated in schools where religious groups have been allowed to pack the school boards and you can see why critical thought is wanting, We think we in the west are less prone to being brainwashed than those who live in dictatorships and under repressive governments, but that isn’t really the case if we add in the pernicious rightwing mission creep of conservative news monopolies such as The Murdoch Media empire and many, many others.

I think unless Biden dramatically turns against Netanyahu, Biden will lose. Votes will go to incoherant wild ideas Kennedy,sympathy votes to Trump and he will win. Biden is not a fighter to win. His truth is overcome with repeated lies.. We can only hope that once in office after he has destroyed his enemies, that Trump will spend 4 years playing golf as he becomes increasingly demented. If Biden wins, I hope Harris takes over quickly.

@Marionville Unfortunately, the problem is much more complicated. Years ago I sat in on a town Hall (Seattle) question on whether or not to make English the national language. There was a huge crowd and they were segregated into the yes and no side. There were 2 Latino on the no side and they kept spouting racism. A woman across the aisle leaned over and told me these guys were making her so mad she about changing sides (to the yes side). There were 2 women on the yes side. One was Chinese who represented the UN. She said it is perfectly normal for countries to have a basic language and some countries like Switzerland have 3 or more. The other woman represented the Seattle school district. She said there were 130+ different languages being spoken in the district. Some were very rare. The districts hire IA (instructor assistants) to help but with these unusual languages the rules are waived so long as they spoke the language. She went on to say with all the translations, nighttime classes to learn English, programs as bootstrap (slow immersion in English) and many more the district was financially strapped. Money was being taken from special ed to fund all the needs of the immigrant population (which included special ed). My late partner was an elementary teacher for an international school in Seattle and almost every day I heard stories. One was unbelievable. People don't realize it costs a lot of money to education non-citizens. To many it just another racist, emotional issue. It is not.
This is just on small example of the problems the world is having trying to assimilate more and more of us. That's what that study is all about. Pro growth corporations say technology is the answer but look at where 'technology' is taking us (don't if you want to sleep).

@Marionville, @rogerbenham As usual no president can make decisions based on their own feelings. The Republicans are itching for another reason to crucify him and they totally support the heavy handed, ultra right Israeli government. President's are often literally between a rock and a hard place. People like tRump deal with this with blame others.

Sorry, but I do not agree with your views here. I thought NATO was in the wrong before Putin invaded. I hate the long standing Neo-Con propaganda espoused since Reagan and amplified by Bush junior. Much as I liked Obama and somewhat Clinton, i felt they were the same wealthy elite running the Neo-Con concept. Even Biden has been a huge distance from the AOC concepts that I admire. Bernie is OK but at election time he'll dump all and agree with Biden, maybe gagging as he does so.

@rogerbenham The whole Neo-Con thing is actually the Movement Conservatives that were working even before Reagan to undo all that the New Deal ushered in under Roosesvelt. Yeah, Clinton and Obama worked with the wealthy elite far too much for my taste.

@silverotter11 95% Corporate tax in 1950

As predictable a response as I expected …like night follows on from day! Perpetrator #1 responds as programmed!!

@Marionville as your silly reply shows no words just kill kill....

@1patriot The only killing I advocate is killing the incessantly pro Putin posts. That’s all I’m asking!

@Marionville far from it it your post is not saying that at all. i am for peace and you want to kill me. not much of a free thinker are you....

@1patriot No I don’t want to kill you…I suggest you re-read my words instead of deliberately misinterpreting them. Btw I’m not an American.

@Marionville i am not American either. i grew up in Limerick. so you want to control media on this site

@1patriot No…just the pro-Putin propaganda…which I find unhelpful, Putin has stopped all other media outlets from operating in Russia by throwing them in jail. Why then are you helping spread his one sided views and doing his work for him here. He’s an autocratic and repressive dictator who has invaded his neighbours’ country. There is no justification for supporting his rhetoric here in my opinion…I find it offensive.

@Marionville but your calling any thing that says something positive of Putin is propaganda. Since i was a child the media here in Canada always painted putin as communist, dictator, mass murder etc. where i see now his interest is in the well being of his country. the Rothschilds killed the royal family in the early 1900's. he getting them out of his country and many around the world want them out of our country. who control your mainstream media like the BBC it's the agents that work for Rothschild. they are a major controller of the federal reserve, international bank of settlements, the IMF, the conucil on foreign relation, the UN, WHO, NASA and many others they control with money. and you know what money can do for you!

@Marionville

@1patriot Why is there no free press in Russia…why has he killed or jailed all those politicians and media commentators who disagree with him …? Until you can give me a valid answer to these questions this conversation has nowhere to go I’m afraid….no matter what other whataboutery you post in justification of Putin.

@Marionville Some people are not worth ones time to 'debate.' They are completely mired in the one sided point of view and the ideas of critical and evidence based thinking is foreign to them. I learned a long time ago it's best to ignore these types and they eventually will go away.

@Marionville what RT it's public television your busy supporting the rothschild mafia that killing million and may billions of people is Putin doing this shit until you can give me a valid answer that question this conversation has no where to go....and that way worst that what Putin is doing there's your answer! old and out of touch with the real world. and your grand children well be the ones fighting the shit your supporting! wait until they close your bank account freeze your assets and than give you money for a mere existence. they did this in Canada for people who donated to the trucker protest and many are still frozen. CBDC becareful what you wish for as rothschild is your bank without a doubt!

@pedigojr I usually do just manage to ignore them…today I decided I would take a stand against the constant Putin apologist claptrap!

Yup, once Ukraine lobs American missiles successfully into Moscow, a serious international war becomes imminent. Although such attacks would seriously damage Putin's strength.

@rogerbenham The interesting thing is that at no time has Russia ever been under threat from anyone or anything…except their own President’s megalomania and ambition!

@Marionville The most obvious answer to that is to compare the number of times that the USA has invaded countries with the number of times Russia has invaded. Of course the country that comes out on top is China. But the USA has been effectively at war since 1948 or if you prefer, 1950. I just do not understand why NATO's promises do not matter.Around 2000 the question was "Why do we nned NATO". Russia at that time wanted to be part of Eurooe but of course the Americans objected. If people only understood the US war machine and the hawks surrounding it and the fact that the US has bases in I believe 145 countries. Personally I resented Mildenhall being so close to one of my schools and.Holy Loch.

@Marionville you were told that by who the BBC how would you know that for sure??? i see Russian news once in well just like i see Pakistani news. obvious you have never watched RT news. also the Russian search engines don't lie to you like google and Microsoft who all back the mafia run pharmaceutical industry. hear in Canada we only have government media and we fund them to the tune of 2.5 billion per year. so they only show us what the government wants you to see! i wouldn't doubt that the BBC is funded by British government also.

@Marionville, @pedigojr exactly you just showed your one sided view with out ever thinking about it. i call it narrow minded! Marionville calls it free thinking it not the same as critical thinking for sure

@1patriot You still haven’t answered why Putin has shut down, imprisoned or killed all opposition voices to his news propaganda. Conveniently missed that point did you? Try using your critical thought processes to answer that!

@Marionville i did answer it i asked you who told you....the BBC where are you getting the intel from CIA-FBI, Israel you never answer that question i asked. it's very easy to say now prove your question. as you should know the cabal own the news media so they can bull shit the people with any story. they do it all the time in Canada and the USA. Putin would have to kick them bastards out of the country. look what the Americans did to Julian Assange he got intel right from the pentagon and they want to try him and kill him. and he was never in America. as you should know the most powerful weapon of war is the media. look at Snowden he whistled on black budgets by the USA and had to run for his life to where? so is you information from a whistle blower that England wants dead.....or did your media tell you that story....

@1patriot No…I get it from a variety of verifiable news sources! Are you trying to tell me that you believe there is a free press in Russia…are you that much in denial? Oh please don’t tell me that you think RT isn’t a branch of the official Russian State Media disinformation machine. Finis. No more…you are truly too brainwashed to have a serious discussion with.

@Marionville rt is the same as the CBC in Canada Government paid your defecting your reply. what verifiable sources name them show me!

@1patriot Finis…means The End:

@Marionville i knew you couldn't answer the question, and you should not be so trust worthy of your news in any country these days as your loving bankers own every government around the world and if a country refuse to obey they just kill them and install there puppets. in the last two years they killed 5 country leaders. the carrot they dangle is (money) to buy most of them, but the good ones they have to kill!

@1patriot You are apparently too deluded to have any serious discourse with so regrettably I have finished this thread…The End =

@Marionville because you can't answer my question so i can answer your question. and then storm away in disgust. you get your news from the lairs like all Liberals ....i call them sheep, as the government herds you. happy bird flu season my dear!

Glad I’m not the only one pissed off to see the daily feed onsite clogged up with this garbage.

@Marionville Funny thing is that I feel the same but from an opposite viewpoint as all news (well easily 90%) is controlled by a handful of billionaires.

@rogerbenham I don’t watch any of their rightwing bullshit either.

@Marionville If you watch TV or read news or even listen to news youare receiving it. TV presents a way of living which the masses adopt. All news is controlled and has often be shown hundreds of broadcasters speak precisely the same words.

With allowing all the takeovers through all of our lifetime, we lost the battle ages ago. Blackrock, Vanguard and maybe 100 billionaires control most it. Presently they are starting to squeeze us financially and slowly but surely they will wn unless there is a world type French revolution and complete destruction of capitalism. Sadly in the event of such, a new bunch of evil men most likely would just replace the present one.

@rogerbenham There are still independent newspapers such as The Guardian where we can still get unbiased news…it’s just a case of being discerning in what we believe and having the ability to be credulous about most things unless independently verified. Please do not patronise me Roger, I’m as well informed as you are.

@Marionville I am aware of the guardian. The Gruaniad. Bt the greats likke Fisk and Pilger and Aisbitt were not with the Guadian.

I think the problem in their brains started way before the pandemic.

@Marionville You're probably right.
I shouldn't make excuses for such misbehavior!