Nice to see you are back. You were missed.

@Betty Thank you. It is nice to know I was missed.

I got back yesterday, and am still catching up on internet stuff. Should be caught up by tomorrow.

Being partially blind, my eyes kind of wear out after a couple of hours of staring at a computer screen, so I can't get all caught up in one day.

@snytiger6 Yeah problem is that Bill Maher is also mostly ignorant on both the middle east and the bible as well... For one archeology disproves the bible and for another most of the Jews that were dumped in Palestine were European Jews and had no connection to the region at all. The people of Gaza on the other hand go back thousands of years in their family lineage.

@Lizard_of_Ahaz Bill is partially right. Archeology does prove that Jews inhabited the lands before Islam even existed. Some Jews always lived in the area, but yes, after WWII the Jewish population increased greatly by relocating many Jews from Europe.

However, you are also correct that most stories in the bible have been disproven through archeology, as well as written histories from other regions, as well. The bible has proven to be more of a storybook than a history book.

@snytiger6 Actually he was wrong on that point other than a minor number who managed to return after the Romans kicked them out of the region in 70CE. Those Jews lived in harmony with Nestorian Christians (second link)

[en.wikipedia.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]

"...the archaeology doesn't check out?" Then what is the wailing wall?

"...the majority of Jews now living there [in Israel] are from somewhere else." Yes, but their progenitors, the Jewish diaspora, emigrated to wherever from the Levant.

"Hamas...[was] democratically elected by the Palestinian people." True. And it was Hamas terrorists who slaughtered 1200 Israelis and took 250 hostages on October 7, 2023, and who continue to fight from behind their women and children.

You won't find many Palestinians who denounce Hamas for their tactics. It seems that the Palestinian people are all-in for slaughter of music festival attendees, the taking of hostages, and being used as human shields.

And the Palestinians have common cause with the guys who deny women education, and force them to wear burkas; and with the guys who will slit your throat if you draw a cartoon of the "prophet" Mohammed, or write a novel depicting said "prophet." The guys who don't know the meaning of the word tolerance.

By the way, there are lots of Israeli citizens who are Moslems. They are tolerated by the Jews. But the tolerance is not reciprocal.

That's the way it's been since 1948. The Arab/Moslem people of Palestine refused to accept a Jewish state under any circumstances, even with a fair partition of the lands and the establishment of a Palestinian state.

So the Palestinians refused to respect the United Nations charter, gave the world the finger (), and went to war. They've been at it ever since.

@Flyingsaucesir So what would you like Hamas to do? If you look at the 76 years since Palestine was occupied it is not like they have been treated fairly by the Zionists. Not only are they taking over more and more of their land but they are also killing them no matter how old they are. Should they just put up with it?

@Jolanta First, It's not just Hamas; it's the Palestinians writ large. As you correctly pointed out, the Palestinians chose Hamas. Just like they chose war 86 years ago.

Second, they're not ever going to stop. It's clear that no amount of death and destruction will ever turn the Palestinians into good neighbors. As long as there are Palestinians in the region, there will be terrorist attacks.

The die was cast 86 years ago. Where things stand right now is the inevitable outcome of choices that have been made all along the way. When the Palestinians rejected the United Nations, rejected partition, and went to war instead, they set everyone on the path that led to where we are today.

The Palestinians have done their best to get their Arab neighbors to jump into the fight with them, with some success. But those neighbors all got their noses bloodied, and for the most part have decided it's not worth it. The Arab world is tired of the Palestinians, and is ready to have normal relations with Israel.

Where does it go from here? I think we see more of what we had pre-October 7. After Hamas is de-fanged, Gaza will be rebuilt but also locked down harder than before. And in the north, the Lebanese will get assistance to expel Hezbollah (which is a foreign, occupying force.)

There will not be a perfectly clean end to the hostilities. They will go on for generations, just like they have already gone on for generations. But I think things will settle down appreciably. The Palestinians will be increasingly marginalized. Their ally Iran will become more like it was before the Islamic Revolution. The mullahs' star will fade. (It's already fading; the Iranian people are sick and tired of the religious extremism. Wouldn't you be?) In another 86 years, Hamas and Hezbollah will be a footnote in the history books. Everybody wants to move on, and eventually they will.

Personally, I would have preferred to see two states living side by side in peace. But that option was unilaterally taken off the table by the Palestinians, and I don't see it ever becoming a reality. Israel is going to do what she must to secure herself. In the end, there will just be Israel.

How do you expect this to make sense. Do you realise how small the place is? There is nowhere to hide. Most people there would be sympathetic to Hamas. If you are treated like slaves day in and day out eventually you do rebel.

Hang on here. If suddenly Zionists decided to move to the US and the UN said it can now be a Jewish state and and US state, would you just say: fine no problem?

@Jolanta Under what logic could the United Nations sanction such a thing? Please explain.

The Levant was very sparsely populated in 1948. There was no state there. The Jews do have a historical connection that land.

None of those things were true about North America in 1948, as they are not today.

Shouldn't we support people who share our values over people who are militantly opposed to our culture?

Sorry, I didn't mean to answer for you. Go ahead. I am listening.

@Flyingsaucesir If enough of terrorism were done, yes. Look into how Israel came to be. It was not like they asked nicely. It was done with terrorism and bribes. It did not start after the 2nd world war either. The plan by the Zionists was hatched many years before.

@Jolanta There's no doubt that the Zionists had/have sharp elbows. Does that justify bombing a bus loaded with civilians? Or knifing people in the street? Or attacking Olympic athletes in their dormitory? Or hijacking planes? Or tossing a guy in a wheelchair off a cruise ship? Are these the values you uphold?

Oh, you think those few goat herders who were there in the Levant in 1948 were entitled to ALL that land? That they were right to reject a partition and the possibility of two states living side-by-side in peace?

@Flyingsaucesir
Sparsely populated? Resident Arabs had no right to their lands. The nakba was a myth or justifiable ethnic cleansing because those Arabs were an inconvenient truth.

I so wish so called “New Atheists” like Soapy Sam Harris, Dementia Dawkins, and MEMRI propagandist Coyne would read their Christopher Hitchens on Zionism and Israeli BS. I suggest starting with:
[en.m.wikipedia.org]

And maybe follow up with Hitch -22 and:

@Scott321 The Hitch spoke very well on the subject. I agree completely with his answer to the first question, that Israel has a right to exist, and that they should NOT be annexing territory beyond their original borders (as they are in the West Bank). HOWEVER...

However, Chris did not discuss the fact that the Moslem Arabs (we can call them Palestinians, for lack of a better term) have NEVER acknowledged Israel's right to exist, and have committed innumerable terrorist acts in an effort to force change.

Now look at this from the point of view of Israel. You're a small country, and you're surrounded by people who deny your right to exist. The hostiles' numbers are growing, they are well armed, and they're getting stronger ever day. They have made it clear from the beginning that they are bent on your destruction. What are you going to do?

You need to push them back, create a buffer zone. But the land area hasn't gotten any bigger. It's still a small patch at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea.

If I were Israel, I would clear out the whole area, from the Jordanian/Syrian borders to the sea.

Mind you, I would only do this because the belligerents on my border deny my right to exist, are bent on my destruction, and have since the beginning rejected any partition and creation of two separate states.

@Flyingsaucesir
Arabs calling themselves Palestinians are Palestinians. There is no lack of a better term. Some are not Muslim.

As for so called Israelis Hitch says:
In the mid-1970s, Jewish settlers from New York were already establishing second homes for themselves on occupied territory. From what burning house were they leaping?

Your answer?

@Scott321 As I said, I am against expanding the settlements in the West Bank. HOWEVER...

The conditions I discussed above existed in the 1970s. Only now the people who deny Israel's right to exist are more numerous and better armed.

@Scott321 Jews who were living in the Levant pre-1948, and their descendants, are also Palestinians.

@Flyingsaucesi Imprisonment, tortured, sexually abused and death is not sharp elbows.

@Jolanta No one is denying that there have been excesses on both sides.

@Flyingsaucesir When you say no one is denying that there has been excess on both side you make it sound like both sides are equally guilty to that excess.

@Flyingsaucesir Both Jews and Palestinians have been living there for ever, however the problem started when the Jews from somewhere else started to come.

@Jolanta Yup, both sides are equally guilty of excesses.

You write, "Both Jews and Palestinians have been living there for ever..."

Not true! Islam has only existed since the 15th century. Judaism has existed since well before the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 587 BCE.

The problem started when the Arab/Moslem Palestinians said "fuck you" to the world and went to war against the nascent state of Israel.

@Jolanta Judaism originated in the ancient Canaan region, which is now Israel and the Palestinian territories, and dates back over 3,500 years.

Judaism is more than twice as old as Islam!

But that's not the main distinguishing feature. No. The main difference between Jews and Moslems in the present day is that the former believe in freedom of speech, and the latter do not.

You can poke fun at Moses and Jesus (two Jewish "prophets" ) all you want, and no Rabbi is going to issue a fatwa (a world-wide kill order) against you.

Have you ever seen a movie about Mohammed? There are dozens of movies about Jesus and Moses, but not one about Mohammed. Why not? Because artists, authors, and actors are subject to summary execution if they depict Mohammed in drawing, in print, or on film.

Islam is a terrorist religion.

And you want to defend these people who would kill you in an instant for speaking of their mighty "prophet" without fawning reverence? Really?!!

There are other differences too, of course. Jews do not deny girls and women education, or any other rights that we in the West now take for granted.

@Jolanta I understand you are sickened by the death and destruction occurring in Gaza. We all are. But the Palestinians of Gaza planned and prepared for this for a long time. The use by Hamas of their own wives, children, and elderly people as human shields was not an ad hoc development in the war. No. It was planned way in advance. Those kids who are dying in Gaza had no choice in the matter. Their parents are sacrificing them without their consent. (I'm applying here the basic principle that a child cannot consent to be sacrificed any more than they can consent to sex with an adult. Not even if they have been brainwashed into believing that their death is noble martyrdom for a great cause.)

@Flyingsaucesir
I think @Jolanta was hinting at the demographic changes in the region during the early to mid 20th century, despite what Mark Twain had said in The Innocents Abroad (a favorite propaganda point by Israel propagandists). What would you say the demographic make up of the area per Arabs and Jews had before the aliyah?

I think you are profoundly confused by the difference between being Arab and being Muslim and making impugning generalizations about the latter.

Given your assertion “Islam has only existed since the 15th century.” you might want to recheck your timeline. 7th century CE sounds about right.

@Scott321 Yes, Islam 7th century CE. My mistake.

And Judaism, 16th century BCE.

My point was that the Jews do have a historical connection to the land that far predates that of the Muslims, contrary to what was asserted by @Jolanta.

Am I making impugning generalizations about Muslims? You should hear me when I get going on Christians!

I'm aware that not all Moslems are bloodthirsty creeps, just as not all Christians are Inquisitors or Crusaders. But all of the moderates in both groups are enablers of their respective extremists.

The Palestinians definitely deserve the appellation "extremist," as would anyone who would use their own wives and children as human shields. Or bomb bus loads of civilians. Or hijack planes. Or knife strangers on the street. Or toss a guy in a wheelchair off a cruise ship. Or machine gun Olympic athletes in their dormitory. Or shoot children in front of their parents. Or murder hundreds of attendees at a music festival. And for what? A shitty little patch of desert and an an abiding hatred of their own cousins.

Cousins who had, very shortly before being granted a state charter, suffered a holocaust where more than 6 million Jews were murdered in cold blood. And it's not like they were going to take all the land.

A fair and equal division was proposed. The land was only sparsely populated, and there was no state existing at at time. The United Nations voted and the motion passed.

The Arabs/Muslims of the area said, "fuck you, world," and they started a war that is still going on today.

I think we agree that Israel has a right to exist and to defend herself. Unfortunately, she has been given no choice but to do so.

(Palestinian terrorism started way before the expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, btw)

@Flyingsaucesir Wow, tell me do you honestly think that any hostages are still alive? I somehow doubt it. You see the area is so small and it has been bombed to rubble by Israel with US bombs so almost nothing is left there. When you talk about Palestinians being used as human shields where should they go? There is nowhere for the to go. I am not surprised that Hamas did what they did. After more than 75 years of oppression, torture, rape and death they had enough. What would you do in their shoes?

@Jolanta I think Israel's behavior this last two or three decades has been atrocious. Netanyahu is, in my opinion, a war criminal. But the original sin here was NOT the offer of a fair partition to two parties; it was the rejection of the offer by one of those parties, and then their embarking on a terrorism campaign that has lasted 86 so far, with no end in sight. Netanyahu is a monster, but the Palestinians created him. It is Palestinian terrorism that empowers Israeli extremists. The Palestinian rhetoric is and always has been, "Israel has no right to exist." If you had someone with that attitude camped on your doorstep, and they periodically demonstrated with savage violence that they mean what they say, what would you do?

@Jolanta I don't know if any of the hostages are still alive. I suspect some are. What good is a dead hostage?

I also think that the IDF has basically written off the hostages. Recovering them alive is not their first priority. Destroying Hamas is their job one.

I would have preferred to see the IDF surgically remove Hamas without missile strikes on civilian infrastructure. But that would have entailed huge Israeli casualties, so I understand why they didn't wage this campaign in that way.

Not really. Maher hasn’t a clue what he’s pontificating about. When has that ever stopped him? Hitchens had a clue.

@Scott321 You cite Hitchens, over and over, so I take it you agree with what he says.

The Hitch says that Israel has a right to exist. You do agree with that, right?

This whole mess stems from the fact that the Arab/Moslem Palestinians do NOT agree with us (you, me, and Hitch). That's the nub of it.

Not only do the Palestinians not agree that Israel has a right to exist, they commit acts of terrorism in order to force us (you and me) into changing our minds.

Mind you, Palestinian terrorism started way before Israeli settlement expansion in the West Bank.

Its sounds like, and I hate to say this, in your case the terrorism is working.

@Flyingsaucesir
Fun fact. Neither Irgun nor Lehi were Palestinian terrorist organizations.

Also Palestinian does not equate to being Muslim. A subset of Palestinians (eg- Hanan Ashrawi) are Christian. Many members of Fatah and other PLO factions, especially those influenced by Marxism have been secular.

Israel proper is a fait accompli. The right and some leftish factions of Zionism have explicitly or at least implicitly worked toward expansion beyond 1948 borders. Transjordan had been coveted by Revisionists, especially Irgun and Herut. Creeping annexation is the current focus.

I fail to see how my refusal to accede to the delegitimization of Palestinian identities nor their dehumanization translates into a bullshit assertion “Its sounds like, and I hate to say this, in your case the terrorism is working.” like some sly debating point made to fantasize you’ve got me painted into a corner. How the fuck is terrorism working in my case? I’ve condemned Hamas’ atrocities of Oct 7th multiple times. I also condemn Netanyahu for being a despicable opportunist alongside his far right political allies including settler aligned parties. I’m no keffiyeh wearing student protester disrupting campus life for others. I’ve actually read deeply and informed myself over the years.

Just weeks before October 7th I had watched Waltz with Bashir where a former IDF soldier tries to come to terms with his service in Lebanon during the Sabra and Shatiila massacres. Dark and disturbing movie. Very apt for the current extension of the Israeli war aims into Lebanon. Ariel Sharon got into political hot water due to that event. That would be the same Sharon who would lead the disengagement from Gaza in 2005 much to the dismay of his nemesis Netanyahu. He didn’t disengage from Gaza with noble intentions but to avoid the implications of Palestinian demographic growth at odds with the ethnic character of his Jewish state, to sidestep peace initiatives in the works at the time, and perhaps to take the focus off a corruption scandal. The current Gaza atrocities are kinda Bibi still dealing with the spectre of Arik added to keeping himself out of political hot water due to a corruption scandal. Oh the irony.

@Scott321 You're right, not all Palestinians are Moslems. Some are Christians, and some are Jews. That's why I don't much like the term "Palestinians." It's vague and ambiguous. That's why I keep coming back to the term Arab/Moslem Palestinians.

The whole business is ugly as shit, but is that the fault of the Israelis? They were granted a charter by the United Nations, who also offered the same to the "Palestinians." The Pals rejected the offer, said "fuck you" to the world, and went on the war path. Now many people are turning against Israel because they're winning on the ground.

The situation in Gaza is horrendous, but that's exactly what Hamas (a Palestinian creature) designed it to be. They planned the whole thing meticulously, from the slaughter and kidnappings of October 7 to the massive Palestinian civilian casualties. The goal is to sway public opinion, pull at our heartstrings. And its working.

It's also monstrous. These fuckers are using their own wives, children, and elderly people as human shields, while they keep on fighting from their underground bunkers. The Israelis don't want to kill civilians, but what choice do they have? If you don't eradicate a weed, it will just come back.

Which brings us back to our original question: does Israel have a right to exist? If she does, then she has the right to defend herself, no matter what monstrous human sacrifices their opponent is prepared to make.

Talk of the oppression of the poor Palestinians is twisted irony. Nobody oppresses the Palestinians more than they oppress themselves. Those children behind whom Hamas terrorists shoot cannot consent to being sacrificed any more than they can consent to having sex with an adult. Not even if their indoctrination is complete and they wholly swallow the bizarre notion that their sacrifice is noble martyrdom and they will go straight to heaven for it.

But should we really be surprised by Palestinian barbarism? These are the same people who would slit our throats if we tell an off-color joke about the "prophet" Mohammed. Have you ever seen a movie about Mohammed that is critical or pokes fun at said "prophet?" Of course not. They don't exist. Why not? Because all the writers and actors and directors and producers have been successfully terrorized into abject silence. And if someone did make such a film, who would dare go into the theater to see it? "It's not worth getting blown to smithereens," we would tell ourselves.

Yeah, the terrorism is working.

@Flyingsaucesir How about you look into how the Israeli so called resistance terrorised the Brits and Palestinians prior to UN resolution about it becoming a state?

@Jolanta I did read a very good article about that in The New Yorker some decades back. Yes, the Jewish Palestinians certainly had sharp elbows. So did the Muslim Palestinians. Partition was supposed to remedy that. I think it might have worked, but both parties had to sign on.