To be honest, the world is a very big grey area. What we perceive to be "right" one moment can be proven "false" the next.

I agree with you that we should all be entitled to our opinions be they right or wrong. But there are some people who don't want others to have their opinions at all, that was my main worry.

My friends and I have many different moral, ethical and political opinions that vastly differ. We argue about them all the time and sometimes we change each other's minds. In that case, we usually concede the point and move on. If we can't agree then we just drop the topic and just hang out as friends.

I just don't see why everyone else can't do that. I agree people should be able to voice their opinions and protest in public. But why should they block roads and damage statues or property. I really hated the tearing down of statues in the US. Because although I may not like them (I personally don't have an opinion on them) I would be heartbroken to see a statue that an artisan spend countless hours working on and crafting. Be torn down and smashed to pieces just because some bratty ignorant emotional children felt offended. All that money, all those hours of careful work, something that a person who made it took a part of their life to create was destroyed.

We can't change history, but we can change the future. What kind of future are we going to have if we keep tearing down and destroying the historical monuments that remind us of the crimes of the past? Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.

@Lancer The destruction of property/symbols is mute point a few years ago I fell out with a friend of mine over a news story. Two young men of 17 years of age in northern Ireland took a video of themselves burning a poppy.# They then posted it on FB. Subsequently they were charged/prosecuted with committing a hate crime and received 3 months in jail. My point was that whilst I in no way condoned their actions, I would have welcomed the opportunity to debate it with them. I may have told them of Messine ridge which claimed the lives of Thousands of Connaught rangers on one day, then thousands of Ulster Volunteer force on the next. A monument still stands with the two symbols of a shamrock and a black hand on the battles site. This opportunity was denied to me and others by a heavy handed judiciary. I also pointed out to my friend that given the history of NI, this could be viewed as political protest and as such should not be censored. The irony of this debate was that my friend came from East Germany and was 12 when it ceased to exist. She had witnessed many statues and symbols destroyed.

(For our american cousins the poppy is a paper replica sold to commemorate armistice day on Nov 11 each year. All proceeds go to the Royal British Legion who use the money to help veterans and their families. It is referenced in the Beatles song " Penny Lane Behind the shelter in the middle of the roundabout

The pretty nurse is selling poppies from a tray " )

@273kelvin Fair enough.

Personally I choose not to be offended easily because it just causes unnecessary stress to myself. I just live and let live. If somebody want's to believe, do or say something different to me then I let them. I don't try to stop them.

But I do try to understand them. I used to be a person who saw the world as "black and white" but now I realize it is a big grey area. Full to the brim with hypocrisy and ignorance. I try to learn as much as I can to reduce my ignorance but I can't learn everything and we all learn different things that form our opinions.

I know that the English have tried to wipe out the Irish for hundreds of years through ethnic cleansing and slavery. So I understand this. The English also did some snobby things to my people who voted for freedom and succession but we were denied our right as humans to live as we wished. For that I can never forgive them.

But at the end of the day I am powerless.

Personally I disagree with the idea of "hate crime" because it opens the gate for "he said she said" type debates on what a "hate crime" really is. I'm half chinese, people have called me chinky, asian face, small eyes, chink, monkey, dog, yellow, etc. I never really cared because I didn't want to be a victim, I just got better grades than them in school and avoided them. I helped people around me so that I could change they way they saw me. I assimilated and understood the people of Australia and became a true Australian myself.

To this day I've never been racist. I've said some stereotypical jokes but I've never insulted or abused a person for the way they looked, spoke or lived. I celebrate diversity but I also acknowledge that there are certain people who do not share my sentiment of "judge the individual for their actions, not the whole race".

@Lancer If we taught a little more history maybe people would vote a little wiser and also respect the statues of past hero’s. Maybe we wouldn’t elect idiots like Obama.

@Trajan61 Or guys who use family connections to get a safe place in the national guard (G. W.) Then send everyone off to war on a lie.
Those that would dodge the draft then mock a veteran because he had the misfortune to be shot down and captured. Even a grieving mother because she happens to be muslim?
Just saying

@273kelvin Yes I agree GW made a bad mistake sending soldiers into Iraq as it open the gates for more radical Shiite and Iranian involvement their. Kind of hard for me to be sympathetic for the Muslims though.

@Trajan61 It was not a mistake it was a fucking LIE. To which our PM Blair was complicit and they both should be on trial in the Hague for war crimes.
She gave up her son for her and your country. What more could you ask of any American mother? Yet a man who never served at all has the gall to mock her. Is he really all there?

@273kelvin GW had his shortcomings but he was a damn sight better than that idiot Obama.

@Trajan61 "Shortcomings!" An idiot is someone that says things like "The trouble with the french is they have no word for entrepreneur". A criminal idiot sends hundreds to their death on a barefaced lie, that kills 1/2 million and leaves a whole region in tatters. Whilst the perpetrator of the biggest terrorist attack on his country is left at large!
If it is idiocy to want a heath care for everyone and bring your mortality rate under 3rd world levels. Try and do something about citizens being mown down in schools, churches and anywhere they might go to enjoy themselves. Oh and gets Bin Laden. Then sign me up for idiot class.

@Trajan61 He is Mayer because the people of London voted for him its called democracy. You know where everyone gets to decide not just white folks who come from good christian families. There are lots of places in the land of the free that you would be able not stand as a candidate if you say your an atheist.
As for gun laws. Hows that working out for you guys? Seems like every month theres another nutcase (real ones not just Fox news opinions) gunning down your population because you guys won't put a limit on who can own a killing toy. Btw the right to life comes before liberty. You can't be free if youre dead. In England you don't need a gun because very few people own one. Laws are strict and sentences severe on possession. Consequently only high level drug dealers have them and tend to just use them on rivals. Therefore all that I have ever needed to defend myself is my 2 fists and good manners. I could buy a gun if I wanted to. It would not be legal but neither is the pot I smoke. Do I want one? no. Do I need one? no. You think you need one because everyone else has one and you think thats a better way to live. Then you call Obama an idiot. Talk about pot calling kettles.
Anyway must dash theres a poker tournament online Im gonna play in. Would you like to join me? Oh sorry youre not allowed to.
bye

@Trajan61 Codicil,
I said every month but as I just found out the California shooting is the 307th this year. So that makes more than one a day. Sorry but its so common place that not every mass slaughter makes the news here.

@273kelvin Shootings are well publicized by the liberal media but your chances of being shot by a mass shooter here is less than being struck by lightning. Only the idiotic liberals worry about them. I read of an Englishman who shot an intruder who broke into his house and is in more trouble than the person who broke in just because he had a gun and defended himself. As I said before I’ll take the US over England anytime on gun rights.

@Trajan61 If you had read further and deeper you would have discovered that not only was the gun illegal but he shot the guy in the back as he was trying to escape.
USA gun facts, 1/2 a million crimes using firearms.
124,760 are shot in murders, assaults, suicides & suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, or by police intervention.
35,141 people die from gun violence
12,246 murdered
21,637 die from suicide
500 killed unintentionally
479 killed by legal intervention
279 die but intent was unknown
497 women killed by husband or male dating partner
89,620 people survive gun injuries:
66,673 injured in an attack
3,926 survive a suicide attempt
17,737 shot unintentionally
1,284 people are shot by legal intervention

2,737 kids die from gun violence:
1,606 murdered
958 die from suicide
110 killed unintentionally
26 killed by legal intervention
36 die but intent was unknown
14,470 kids survive gun injuries:
11,386 injured in an attack
278 survive a suicide attempt
2,732 shot unintentionally
74 shot in a legal intervention
Okay you can say the suicides may have happened anyway but if you take pills, slit your wrists etc there is a strong possibility you will survive and change your mind. Swallowing a barrel is quick,easy and permanent. You don't have to go out and find a tall building.
Whilst mass shooting only make up 2% of deaths. As you can see the big picture is much worse.. 35,760 is 5x 9/11 each year.
I can go out at 2am to my local liquor store and not feel threatened by some crack head with a gun. I call that freedom

@273kelvin Suicides shouldn’t even be counted as we humans should have the right to end their life if we are terminally ill and have no hope for a quality of life. Everyone I’ve ever known who committed suicide has some kind of terminal illness. Break ins are a lot more common in England and Australia where the criminals have less fear of retribution.

@Trajan61 Your right to a degree but suicides should only be counted as a fraction. Not all are terminally ill. I have known 2 that were not and countless attempts.
As for break ins Yes I have been robbed but it was done whilst I was out as most are. I also have known 2 where the occupants were in and threatened. The perpetrators were caught and sentenced. Plus the victims lived to tell the tale. Albeit behind greater security. If it had been in your country the thieves would most definitely been armed and who knows what might have happened? Btw neither of the victims had any desire to buy a gun afterward.

Couldn't agree more..I have been in protests since the 70's..it's not that people want you to "Shut Up" , people want you to Know that your speech will no longer be tolerated by them..this happened in Boston a few times recently at a "Free Speech" rallies. It was a cover for Nazi, KKK and White Supremacists..at the 1st one ( a week after Chancillorville) 100,000 counter protesters marched to the rally..it was an amazing show of Solidarity & "Witnessing". As my Mom said You made your bed, now Sleep in it.

The rise of glorifying hate speech is frightening. When anyone wants to speak in a way that any public will hear, there should be debate. Give both or however-many sides. Never let just one view hang there without rebuttal. Trump's rallies are the most unAmerican thing that he began. That and spewing childish garbage instead of debating.

That's a really good point.

I am mainly talking about how when a guest speaker is invited to a college by the students and once they arrive to talk, ignorant selfish protesters walk inside and start shouting and screaming to shut someone down because they don't agree with them.

Jordan Peterson who has a PhD in clinical psychology was invited and ready to speak when people with signs and megaphones came in and started screaming nonsense. They weren't invited but they came and ruined everyone else's time.

@Lancer Yeah that is very rude. The way to shut down people you don't agree with is to have a civil discussion and out debate them.

So, we are dealing with this now in my area. Richard Spencer is making the rounds demanding a forum to speak at Michigan’s college campuses. Because they are public universities, receiving taxpayer funding, there is some argument that refusing him is “the government” restricting his right to speech. On the other hand, many students feel that campus is their home and they should not be forced to host someone who advocates treating them as less than fully human.
What these young people don’t understand is that the protection of free speech exists specifically to protect unpopular speech. oppressors quickly co-opt the language of oppression for themselves and claim to be victims of discrimination. But if we fail to protect ALL speech, it is the voices of the minorities, the oppressed, that will ultimately be silenced.
We see this already with religious folks claiming that speech or policies protecting the rights of, for example, transgender people, are tantamount to hate speech against their religious beliefs. So we must protect the right to say terrible, hateful things in order to protect the right to say that they are terrible and hateful.

@RoboGraham Yeah well you're welcome to, but I don't think I'll bother trying having a civil discussion such as debating the validity of my existence with ignorant, bigoted transmisogynists such as Milo Yiannopoulos. And he doesn't have a "right" to make speeches at campuses any more than I do. Both he and I are able to exercise our right to free speech. To hell with hateful bigots, though.

It doesn't work like that in America anymore. People are immune to facts, reason, and logic. Platform = followers. Trump brought a whole fuckin' Home Depot's worth of rope to that bitch and his followers just played Double Dutch with it.

@JeffMurray Yeah. I don't get people. They don't act right.

Colleges are just one place where you are supposed to be challenged and learn more than you know. Damn right we need to know what others believe, but make it a debate. Let others rebut, discuss.

-Voltaire

fakebook "friends"

Putin

Promoting illegal action should not be stopped just because it is illegal. Laws are not perfect and legal does not equate to good.

@NothinnXpreVails True but who who gets to decide what is legal and what is not and what rules to obey and which ones we can disregard. We as a society should decide.

I find it fascinating when people are gung ho about laws and crime, yet they can’t signal for a lane change. It is the nature of human hypocrisy and perceived authority, not to mention that I never granted someone authority (with exception of employers) over me, that I don’t really consider myself as lawful. “Because we said so” doesn’t work for me. @JackPedigo

@NothinnXpreVails Good, then everybody gets to disobey the laws they don't like. And where does that get us? Right where we are now. When we go to everybody for themselves then civilization is lost and we have anarchy and everybody loses.

I agree to a point. If humans ever established a far superior form of government that was actually just and free, that’d be great. But that is not what we have. @JackPedigo

And how would we ever get there when everyone gets to do as they please. Remember the adage "your freedoms ends where my nose begins" . An ideal government cannot be created from anarchy. @NothinnXpreVails

@NothinnXpreVails 'Form of government' and 'just and free' are mutually exclusive. Having a governing body necessarily places restrictions on freedoms.

I’m not intending to promote anarchy, but what we have currently isn’t working. @JackPedigo

@NothinnXpreVails Good. Be aware I am just as upset by what is happening and am prepared to do what it takes. But it serves no one to go to jail or harm innocent people (the guilty ones are another matter).

@JeffMurray I disagree. We are not the old Soviet Union, or some Fascist government. Our system of government has us to allow freedoms others only dream of (like the one right here). What puts restrictions on freedoms are natural restrictions and too many competing needs.

@JackPedigo Citing an example of a country that has more restrictive laws in no way invalidates the fact that a governing body, regardless of how permissive, necessarily places restrictions on freedoms. Our freedom of speech is restricted in the areas of speech that incites violence and danger. Our freedom of religion is restricted by our government's willingness to acknowledge your religion as real. Our freedom of assembly is restricted in cases of public safety. Our right to bear arms is restricted in the level of destructive capabilities of said arms. You can look at any single freedom/right we have and find limits to them.

Agreed @JackPedigo

@JeffMurray As I have said above about freedom and noses. The problem most people miss is that freedoms and population density work against one another. This is my reference to a "natural" restriction. Imagine if our country had the same population as China (1.2 B to our 330M). We both share roughly the same area with China having less arable land space. How many freedoms would we have then?

@JackPedigo You're proving my point for me. Explain to me a system of governing for even the smallest population that wouldn't necessarily restrict freedoms. You can't do it. Even if there was only one family per square mile, any time they would meet there would need to be rules restricting freedom for the sake of harmony.

@JeffMurray The way I see it freedoms always involve a trade off. I have a friend who doesn't ant anyone telling him what to do, when or where. Unfortunately, this freedom comes at an expense, finding work, housing, food and on. So there is really no such thing as total freedom - except when you die.

So if you have 2 people, is that government?

@JackPedigo
Regardless of what your friend wants, he is either abiding the reduction in his freedoms, or all of his freedom will likely be taken away.

If they have a governing body, (which is the way I stated it). But if you mean only two people, and no others to enforce any rules, basically all you have is a gentleman's agreement, which either person could technically break at any time.

absolutely! thank you.

Very true. @TheInterlooper

Many don’t appear to understand that a person can support a Muslim’s right to believe as they wish and yet publicly criticize that belief. Blocking speakers from universities because they have a different perspective is flat out wrong. If nobody agrees then few will attend and the talk will be a flop but I wish they wouldn’t prohibit folks from speaking.

I strongly reject your premise that "quoting the Quaran makes you islamaphobic" etc. Because that makes no sense to me, the babble is just as full of "kill them all " crapola.
However, i respect your right to say it

There are plenty of groups that you'd be straight demonized for criticizing. Can you imagine the kind of hell someone would catch for shit-talking the mentally handicapped? Do they have an imaginary knife to our collective metaphorical balls?

for that reason i have quite some trouble with so-called "Political Correctness". we as society have to thank this bullshit for growing cowardice of expression.

@gearl, as i understand it, nobody was blocked or prohibited from speaking. the students exercised their freedom of choice to not invite specific speakers. cool with me.

@walklightly Quite a few ex-Muslims have had their speaking engagements cancelled by universities. When a Muslim-student group has enough clout to stop free speech, it to me, is the opposite of what universities stand for. If groups of evangelical students could block all speakers that talked about evolution or blocked Harris, or Dawkins or someone who gave a talk about why Scientology is wrong, would that be acceptable? The best way to argue against a speaker is not to attend the talk. I would like to know if the same students that invited the speaker were the ones that cancelled.

[insidehighered.com]

[thepublicdiscourse.com]

[exmna.org]

[patheos.com]

@gearl, i would like to clearly distinguish between "stopping/blocking free speech" & "banning a speaker". in a democratic society or any institution within such a society it will always be the vocal majority that chooses its speakers. at least it's the best we can hope for. i trust that Richard Dawkins will find a suitable platform & audience. i wouldn't want nazis shout their sick drivel across my domain - i'd ban them.

@walklightly I think that we need to agree to disagree on this issue.

@gearl, i agree.

Add Christianity to that list.

I guess the best way to approach free speech is to pick the time and place, but also be aware that if I say something controversial I could lose out if my words are taken out of context

@Lancer Or taken exactly in the context and manner they were said if you say awful shit. Some of the people yelling, "Jews will not replace us" into television cameras found that out the hard way.

@JeffMurray I guess so. But even then, who really cares.
I know a good guy who lives with a gay couple. He got really drunk one night and was shouting outside the house "Hitler was right, kill all the gays" then passed out drunk halfway through the door. The gay couple just got permanent marker and drew swastikas on his face, dick and balls. Plus a little hitler mustache.

It just depends on how people react to it. If we just ignored people who scream and shout then they lose their power. But if they start looking for fights like ANTIFA then just be prepared to be punched for abusing strangers who just want to preserve their history or go listen to a guest speaker speak.

Also I kinda feel sorry for those people. I don't share their views but I don't think they should be attacked for it. If they physically attacked Jews then that's a problem. But just saying stuff like that is fine.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm me. I'm asian and I just let the racists say whatever they wanted. But when they made my sister cry I left them on the floor covered in their own blood. That's just the way things work.

In saying that I probably shouldn't have done that. My sister should have just become strong like me. she was 18 months older than me and so were her 3 bullies. It's easy to become strong, even a weakling like me did it and I'm only 5 ft 5.

Strength is a choice and so is being a victim.

@Lancer

None of what you said makes any sense to me. He was a good guy but screaming about how gays should be put to death? But he was living with a gay couple? So he was just joking? But then they drew swastikas on his face in permanent marker? What?!?

Also, immediately after saying it's wrong for people to get attacked for saying awful shit, and the sticks and stones adage, you claim you did the exact opposite and beat the shit out of 3 people for saying mean stuff? Then claim that's the way things work? I don't think you are qualified to use a keyboard.

Anyway, you've clearly shown your colors siding with the self-described Nazis and downplaying their activities as "just want to preserve their history or go listen to a guest speaker speak."

You sound like a very intelligent person.

thank you, @Lancer, if nothing else, i hope that is true

It was wrong for a speaker to be invited, then rejected. It happens, but the inviters should know their invitees before taking the step. What the heck? Know who they are before inviting. Really. And if people threaten the speaker, ban them, use the law.

@GoldenMean, why do you tell me that? you sound angry.

I agree with your comment. But I was mainly talking about how if 2 people are having a private conversation and another person interrupted because they felt offended

@Lancer If someone did that to me I would tell them to mind their own business. Hopefully in a nice way lol

Fair enough. I'm not a climate change denier, I believe it is happening. But when people get on the news and say things like "the temperatures are rising and more CO2 is dissolving into the water, causing higher ocean acidity" I just think "well, when did the laws of physics change?" Because higher temperatures decrease solubility of gas into liquids (the reverse for salts). So although I believe climate change occurs, I question the authenticity of the claims made by some scientists who are probably just trying to get monetary grants for their research.

It's a stunt. Whether or not humans are causing significant climate change is yet to be determined. But I agree we need to do more research into the topic.

@Lancer We should check the source material on that one. Maybe they're talking about the carbon cycle as a whole; bivalves, algae, the whole shebang. Not an expert on the topic.

Try agreeing with one scientist who said, If people stopped having children for just 100 years, the population would be back to sustainable.

@GoldenMean How is that possible? Am I missing some irony? Or does "sustainable" mean zero?

if hurting feelings include threat... yeah, you may end up in jail. I was friend with wife of an artist that how an art expression issue a threat to the visiting USA president in the 70's, FBI showed up and picked him up, he wasn't let go until about 2 weeks after president left, plus the legal fees on federal court... was not worth it. Puerto Rico in the 70's

[yahoo.com]

Becoming common day occurrences now.

Threats are different than hurting feelings. And threats against a head of state will be taken very seriously.

I didn't initially realize the OP was not about America where I have a degree in criminal justice and since I know little of the CJ system in the UK, I will defer to others

There are anti bullying initiatives now but I have yet to hear of anyone being prosecuted criminally for hurting feelings over here.

Just to reiterate and clarify- I see a distinct difference between bullying and hurt feelings that come from a conversation or presentation.

In the former, there is an informed sustained deliberate intention to cause emotional harm to a chosen target. Which is far different than the hurt feelings that arise from someone making an inflammatory or even an asshole comment during a talk or conversation

[nottinghamshire.police.uk]

Here is Nottingham Police's website on Hate crime. As a result of this, a mere accusation of sexual harassment from a woman can get a man put in jail.

Hate crime is stupid. Why can't people just ignore things like this? I'm Asian and I couldn't care less if someone called me a small eyed Honky Chinky Asian faced small d!<k chicken S#@t. I just walk away. Since when did people's feelings make them so weak that they have to complain and react to everything?

Also as for the men being jailed. It has happened, I saw it on the local newspapers but obviously it won't be on the internet because the mainstream news doesn't like it when men are seen as victims. We still need to keep up the female victim stereotype apparently

@Atheistman In what way am I living under a rock? Are you saying there is no difference between hurt feelings and bullying, therefore I am mistaken? Or are you referring to something else?

@Atheistman No I didn't but since your comments do not post immediately whereas mine do, I can see why you may think otherwise. I posted both comments mere minutes apart but I did not see your rock comment until this morning.

But since I had already said that there was a difference between hurt feelings and threats I thought perhaps the second post was superfluous. Apparently not.

I can't really tell if the false outrage you refer to is a comment I missed or something you erroneously are accusing me of but I stand behind what I said above

Edited at 6:06 pm EST to add that I was not outraged, upset, angry or any other adjective when I asked what you meant by living under a rock. I still do not know what you meant.

@Atheistman
I wanted to know what part of my statement you were referring to so I could address it but despite my repeated requests for clarification you refuse to engage in anything other childish insults so I suspect your only interest here is trolling or perhaps you are simply obdurately doubling down.

Either way this current conversation is a waste of my time.

All the arse-hole cops who arrested people for being irritating--in their minds.

True.

Personally, my friends and I are quite different in the way that we have a very broad range of political, religious and ethical opinions. We debate them to the point of sometimes screaming over each other and then laughing at an inside joke made by one of us (usually me, but I'm biased). We disagree strongly on many things and I noticed this quite a bit over the years. Even though we went to different middle schools and high schools, we still met up for a bonfire party or a BBQ or a birthday and got along great.

Just before I left my country I said "Hey guys, I really like how we can disagree strongly on many different things, but at the end of the day we can sit here, eat dinner at the same table, laugh, enjoy ourselves and have a great time".

They all agreed that it was true. I believe that is true friendship. Even though we are all studying different courses at different universities and we will probably go our separate ways with careers. I think that we will still stay friends and help each other out when they need it.

That's fine. But in a case where some people invite a speaker to anuniversity because they want to hear them. Then because others don't want to hear them, they get the university to ban them from speaking. It's like George Orwells thought police dictating what people can hear and who they can hear it from.

If somebody doesn't want to listen to the speaker, just don't go. But don't stop others from listening to the speaker. That's just rude.

@Lancer Again, it depends on the content.

Aren't we?
Have you seen the atrocities that our democratic nations have committed in the last 100 years?

Genocide, ethnic cleansing, racism, sexism, torture, oppression, thought policing, radical left and radical right wing terrorism. Are we really better than 1938 Germany? At least they had a country they could take pride in and the strength of unity. All we do nowadays is spread division and ignorance. But to be fair Germany had a fair amount of ignorance too.

@Lancer sadly true...but at least some fight back, because they can be informed if they care to be. Hitler opened Dachau just 6 months after his election specifically for dissidents & members of the press who wouldn't suck up. So far, we are ahead of that.

Trump began the fake news yell because the media reporting what he did and said infuriated him. It's disgusting that everyone now says the media is all fake. Journalists are murdered in some countries for telling the truth. Stop throwing our reporters under the bus. Sure, there are evil liers in the media, but the mainstream is working hard to keep us informed. Don't let the pig baby tear down our most important method of keeping light on the wrong-doers. If you don't clap for me, you're treasonous? Really? Somebody help us.

the only responsibility that comes with my free speech is my integrity.

@walklightly exactly!!

Yeah, Jordan Peterson is great. A really amazing intellectual