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Validity of a theory

Karl Popper stated that we can never prove a theory to be right but can merely prove it to be wrong.Hence the truths of scientific theories are provisional only but are religious truths any different ?

Williamrj17 4 Oct 13
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7

First, I think you may be mixing up an hypothesis with a theory. Hypotheses only become theories in hard science after they have been tested a large number of times with consistent results. At the point that they become actual theories excepted by the scientific community, they are considered the very best explanation that exists for the data and the phenomenon. They are as close to a scientific fact as we can get until improved technology comes along to provide better data and measurement collection, adding additional insight.

Now to your original question. When we do an experiment, we never say that we proved the hypothesis. Instead we say that we our data adds validity to the the hypothesis and and an understanding of the phenomenon as tested. However, we can say that the hypothesis was incorrect as the results do not support the data.

4

Religions aren't theories, they are stories, unsubstantiated assertions, fiction.

They are not theories, but a particular kind of hypothesis generally labeled "unscientific" in that they are not falsifiable. Such a hypothesis inherently cannot even advance to being a theory in the scientific sense. A scientific theory is an already proven and accepted explanatory framework. It is not the colloquial definition of theory ("some random idea I came up with" ), instead, it is the highest level of proof science offers. Although technically all scientific fact is provisional, no scientific theory since the advent of the modern scientific method around the time of Newton, has been withdrawn. They have been elaborated and modified for edge cases, but not disproven.

Heliocentrism, flat earth, etc. predate Newton and I do not regard such things as a scientific theory in the modern sense.

A good example of a scientific a theory that holds up just fine is Newtonian physics. It is still used for orbital mechanics and a variety of everyday purposes. It breaks down only at extreme and mostly theoretically important micro and macro scales, and so has been elaborated with General Relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics in order to work at all scales. But the original theory is still perfectly adequate for most everyday applications.

@mordant Yeah, that's what I meant to say. ? Nice explanation, partner.

4

Yes. Religious "truths" are not based on tested, verified, and peer reviewed objective evidence. They don't have their roots in a logical hypothesis stated in a manner that allows it to be tested. In fact, they are not scientifically testable, cannot be independently verified, and by their very nature are not falsifiable. The two cannot be more different in nature.

Yes, I think falsifiability is the crucial difference.

4

In my opinion, there are no religious truths, just religious dogma. As for science theory, once a theory is established and verified, it is assumed and accepted to be true UNTIL proven false or wrong.

3

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.

Apologist conflate the scientific meaning with the colloquial or common meaning. They are not similar in the least. The important part to remember is that a scientific Theory is a body of facts. The facts will not change. They will be added to with additional facts this is the only reason they are provisional. They are NOT based on "truths" which are subjective as in religion.

3

What religious truths? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Exactly and ever so precise, the concept of ' religious truth/s' is not only an oxymoron but a complete and utter misnomer as well, just as is the concept of a biblical Archaeologist for example.

YES. Thank you.

3

A scientific theory is an explanation of how a set of well-established facts fit together. It is a logical construct that allows one to see individual facts as part of a bigger picture. Access to a larger perspective not only allows one to see WHY certain things are facts, but also to make predictions of FUTURE discoveries. A scientific theory is an incredibly powerful tool.

A scientific theory that is supported by a MASSIVE amount of evidence is still considered to be provisional in the sense that it may be modified if new evidence indicates that a modification is necessary.

The human endeavor we know as science has existed for fewer than 500 years. In the early days of science, some theories had to be completely discarded an replaced with new theories. This is what happened to the Geocentric Theory of the Universe. As evidence accumulated it became clear that the Earth is not the center of the solar system. Copernicus, Galileo, and Keppler collected data indicating that a radical change was necessary, and so the Geocentric Theory was scrapped and the Heliocentric Theory was born. Such sweeping changes are rare today. Theories like Darwin's Theory of Evolution or the Theory of plate Tectonics are continually modified around the edges but are practically impervious to big changes. This is in large part due to the nature of theories themselves.

The resilient nature of scientific theories notwithstanding, there are still some that are bound to undergo some big changes. Einstein's Theory of Relativity and Quantum Theory, for instance, have yet to be unified. However, this in no way implies that scientific theories are remotely comparable to religious beliefs.

Religious beliefs are like castles made of sand, in constant danger of being swept away by the first wave of logic and reason. Religious beliefs are based on capricious personal desire, received dogma, and doctrine handed down from imposters; as such they do not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with scientific theories. Religious beliefs represent a combination of willful blindness and childish stubbornness. Science, on the other hand, is perhaps the greatest human endeavor, a shining example of humanity's potential for good.

3

That's the trick... believers accept religion as truth. Scientists will never go so far as to call any discovery or theory a truth, as it never is. That's a clear definition of an impasse. Some people need it to be black and white...and decided. Some people are okay with everything in life just being a working theory (all grey area). It's all just a part of humanity, and humanity's emotional needs.

2

Religion has truths?

Scientific theories have supporting evidence. Religious assertions have no basis in reality.
A ST is not constructed to coddle people. I forget who said it, maybe Hitchen's did, that nothing about atheism is wishful. All religions pander to the human ego.
STs have applications, for example, germ theory helps us fight disease. Look at any statistics you want, prayer has the same rate of success as random chance.

2

theory doesn't mean in science what it means in casual speech. "i have a theory that the guy across the street is stealing my lawn signs" can be proven if you stay up all night and watch the guy like a hawk but until and unless you catch him, it's just a theory. the theory of gravity can't be proven per se but it can be observed and we can assume it's true until it's disproven. i am not expecting to float to the ceiling any time soon, since i am not an astronaut, so i think we can say that gravity is as GOOD as proven. as for religion... there is no point in wasting time trying to prove there was no talking snake in the garden of eden, but we do have some experience of snakes to tell us how unlikely that is.

g

2

Theories can be proven, but typically they are relatively simple theories. It's the more in depth and, by their nature, more difficult to prove with absolute certainty that are troublesome. Sometimes, these theories make sense to anyone with the intellectual honesty to think it through, such as evolution. It's detestable when people deny the plausibility of a theory without examining the concept of it.

godef Level 7 Oct 13, 2018
1

Well, that's his theory.

1

I think Karl Popper is a bit wacky on this, if that is indeed what he said. You absolutely can prove a scientific theory to be right or wrong. Any religious truths have yet to be proven.

@irascible , but scientific evidence is based in math. And I love a good buzz as much as the next guy.

@irascible , so in 1911, when the scientific theory was that a rocket could not work in the vacuum of space, but was proven wrong later because a rocket actually did work in the vacuum of space, there was no scientific evidence involved?

@irascible , here you go. [popsci.com]

@irascible , N.P.

@irascible , The page still works when I click on it. Anyway. here's a screen cap of it.

A scientific theory can be confirmed but never absolutely proven. If it can be absolutely proven then it is not falsifiable. If it is not falsifiable it fails the definition of a scientific theory.

@TheMiddleWay
First of all, of course, for something to be falsifiable doesn't mean that is has to be false, but it does mean that it has to capable of being proven false.
Secondly, most of what you say is simply a matter of semantics. You are using the word "proven" differently the manner in which Karl Popper did. Popper claimed that a theory in the empirical sciences can NEVER be proven, but it can be falsified, meaning that it can and should be scrutinized by decisive experiments. A scientific theory can, however, be confirmed by such decisive experiments endless times to the point that the scientific community, as a whole, accepts the validity of said theory virtually without further consideration. Whereas in popular parlance this might be said to be "proven", it is not proven according to scientific validation criteria as long as it is possible for falsification to occur by a single experiment. The possibility should always exist, which is why Popper used the word "NEVER". One could say, however, that a scientific theory has been confirmed countless times, such as the laws of thermodynamics, without a single exception being discovered...so far.

@TheMiddleWay Yes, I suppose you could say that such things have been absolutely proven until now. As I said, it is mainly a matter of semantics. However, you don't have resort to fantasy/scifi or gods changing the laws of the universe to consider such invalidating possibilities in the future. I imagine you would consider the Theory of Gravity to be absolutely proven until now...and yet:

[curiosity.com]

Science is the ultimate humility. We must admit what we don't know or we have lost our scientific vision.

@TheMiddleWay I get your point, especially when arguing with dullards who discount Evolution because it is "only a theory". It is just that I am a confirmed agnostic and the pretense of claiming absolute knowledge, usually asserted by theists, rankles me a bit. 🙂

1

Why don't he climb the Empire State Building and jump off and disprove the theory of gravity with his life.

1

The major difference is evidence vs faith and science strives to discover new evidence even if it goes against current understanding. Science is capable of change. When it comes to religion evidence doesn't change anything.

1

What's different about religious hypotheses is that in general they aren't falsifiable and so can be neither proven or DISproven. Anything supernatural (gods, demons, demigods, angels, an afterlife) is purely speculative and asserted without evidence and so you cannot construct a means of disproving it. Since there's no way to disprove it, there's no way to develop a belief that it's likely to be true.

The supernatural is a useless and illogical concept because it hypothesizes things conveniently beyond observation or evaluation of any kind.

Once a thing can be observed and evaluated, it's part of the natural world, not some imagined supernatural world.

Hence, religious "truth" claims cannot be even provisionally verified.

1

Science is basically the philosophy of humility, admit that we are not certain and can always improve, especially if we work at it. Religion is the philosophy of arrogance, we are gifted with absolute truth because we are special and chosen.

@Omen6Actual Yes I agree science is much more than a philosophy and in many ways it supersedes philosophy, in the same way as it does religion, though not as completely, i was only using the word philosophy in the most general way, meaning all systems of thought, as at the core of the scientific method there is a basic idea.

0

Religious ideas can't be falsified because they are beliefs, not objective facts.

Orbit Level 7 Dec 29, 2018
0

Yes because experiments are scientifically replicated so we might need a few more burning bushes and a few more extra fish to believe the 'science' /verity of the bible and wasn't it Methusalah who lived to be hundreds of years old - sorry not having ever been religious I don't have the right figures but seems like it doesn't happen these days - its only in those two books that it happened at all.

Popper also said whilst I think of it that in a pluralist society we must be intolerant of intolerance.Otherwise we go back to the days when it was an offence to even read the Bible and children were beaten and not heard in accordance with Proverbs a book in the Bible

0

So I would read there can never be facts only unprovable theories. So can his theory not be shown to be right? Kind of like the exception to the exception rule. I don't even think religious ideas can be categorized as theories. To me, a theory should have a basic modicum of provability, which religion does not.

0

As usual, when your initial premise is faulty you can make up anything you want after that and make it sound great. "Religious truth" for instance. Gods were invented to explain things people didn't understand. As science progressed the Gods fell away. Volcan for volcanoes, Poseidon, until we figured out how the tides occur. People still cling to the last God however and just like little kids can have imaginary friends apparently adults can too. Religious truth is an oxymoron.

lerlo Level 8 Oct 14, 2018

@uuberdude The question was regarding religious truth. Gravity isn't speculation so you can't equate it to religious speculation either. Religion is the belief in a superhuman God. Sorry, but no such thing exists. I didn't call it a lie but something imaginary isn't true. A large percentage of the world population believing it doesn't make it true either

0

You may not prove it to be right but thats not the point. You only have to prove it to be "best".

0

Yes, religious circular false truisms cannot be proven either right or wrong.

0

There is a broad array of religious "truths" to look at. Be specific about which religious "truths" are to be considered, then we'll have something to work with.

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