I’m okay with that as long as they get the guilty plea and he’s barred from business and politics. Of course, his slimy brats should still rot in jail.

No, you're thinking of the only thing that could lead us to tyranny, as in armed Trumpists rejecting the election results.

...yah, it’s not how many guns you’ve got ..it’s weather or not you know how & when to use them

@Varn I plan to do my best. And my daddy has a few safes full to share! I’m a Southern girl, we grew up shooting, cleaning and reloading guns before locking them back away. I’ll go down fighting, if I must. I hope that’s not necessary, we shall see.

@CarolinaGirl60 Yes, girl, my daddy was a Southern hunter and in the military as well...I will be next to you as well...

I wouldn't worry about that. Any president who refuses to leave office will be in for a pretty nasty surprise.

@Piratefish i hope so. but i'm thinking he could try to impose martial law.

@TheDoubter I think the military wouldn’t go along with that kind of approach

@BudFrank i hope the military ould refuse

..so why comment on "an Illusion?" Really, if they’re all the same, wadda you care? -- but it’s like - there you go again. Tell me ..would HRC have nominated the supreme court justices this one did? Backed out of the Paris Climate Accord … or picked diversionary fights and trade tariffs…?

@Varn What does me pointing out an illusion have to do with me caring or not. I'm pointing out an observation. It doesn't mean I can't care or not. What do you care if I care? You obviously took time to respond to me. I do care though. It's why I dislike both parties. You and people like you continue to perpetuate the bad done by both parties in celebrating and supporting one party over the other because of certain issues that seem to be handled better by the Democrats. You are free to believe in the lesser of two evils, or that the Democrats are the light and the Republicans are the dark. I don't.

You and others continue to not understand the words I have plainly laid out for you. All it requires is that you read without bias instead of throwing out strawmen arguments. When I say they have the same corporate and foreign policy, that obviously doesn't mean Supreme Court Justice appointees or climate change policy. Also, whether Trump does buffoon things like verbally instigating other nations it's important to know that China and Russia and Iran would still be the enemy of the nicely spoken politician. Trump is just the loudmouth version of Hillary. Do you actually think she would have been against regime change in Syria, Venezuela, and Iran? Do you think she would have a speech ready that she wrote that would shame the media or someone like Pompeo for lying about these countries or promoting war?

I never said both sides were completely the same on every issue. They're obviously not. People were saying GWB and Obama were going to extend their presidencies through dictatorship too. They don't have to when the next administration is going to continue the same resource wars based on lies.

@Piece2YourPuzzle You continue to feed this community a vision of hopelessness. As if you’ve all the answers, and there’s nothing we can do... ‘All politicians are the same’ remains your mantra. They’re not - and apparently that needs to be pointed out.

...now you’re telling me ‘what I believe’ I believe my observations, too. Likely far more political than you, I also know of what I speak. Must I explain Democracy…? How party politics work … so you may ignore it.. ..while glomming onto an obscure out-of-context statement then running with it? No thanks.

You state, “When I say they have the same corporate and foreign policy, that obviously doesn't mean Supreme Court Justice appointees or climate change policy.” No, it ‘obviously dosen’t.’ It remains a vivid and recent example of how far they are apart. The Democrats did not nominate and appoint a Corporate-minded Chief Justice - The Republicans did! ...and the distinctions are endless….

There is a semblance of continuity between US policy, though. But ‘this one’s’ beat the crap out of that concept.. Can you imagine if our CIA, FBI, Courts, Military and multiple government agencies had let this nutcase have his way? Collectively - they saved us! That’s the hope I have - and the true depth of strength I’m impressed by..

...so it takes ‘me’ to call bullshit on a statement like this (of yours): “Trump is just the loudmouth version of Hillary.” That’s a prime example of the liquid stuff that’s often spouted from (what would be the mouths of) several folks around here … as they, and The Republicans, apparently continue to foster a hopelessness that keeps far FAR too many of our citizens from making the effort to vote.

“She” would have had the goodwill, respect and collective power of the free world; as did her predecessor (and her husband). As is, who will/ would blame any of our longtime allies for abandoning us? “She” would have been a moderate progressive force, moving us ahead -- instead of this running leap backward...

If we’ve a Democratic Administration after this mess, they will ..of course have to mop up ..as did Obama, then get to work doing as much as their hideously obstructive opposition allows. No, Dem’s are not tuff.. They’re basically ‘like us,’ the community here … knowing there’s far more to life than ending it early attempting to make up for one’s inequalities … and pretending there’s a wonderful place in eternity awaiting them..

Believe me … I’d rather not be the ‘they’re not the fuckin same’ cop.. But if too many of us begin to feel there’s no reason to: run for office; support a candidate; support another candidate; perhaps donate; maybe volunteer; and vote … we’re all screwed! And believe me, our ability to be here right now is very likely at stake. I value our hard-earned freedom - and will fight to maintain it ~

[Edited to remove stupid funny faces when using punctuation for emphasis]

@Varn You continue to purposefully misconstrue what I am saying. There's no need for it being it's in plaint text. So you're not misunderstanding what I'm saying, but purposefully interpreting it how you want to make it seem a certain way.

If you feel what I said is making people feel hopelessness then that's on you. I also never said I had all the answers. You continue to box your thinking in with the two party system. You fail to look outside of that box. It's on you, not me. Because of that mentality, you think that me bashing both is somehow promoting hopelessness and putting words in my mouth that people can't do anything about it.

Then you agree with something I said in terms of, "When I say they have the same corporate and foreign policy, that obviously doesn't mean Supreme Court Justice appointees or climate change policy.”, and then use a strawman argument to counter an argument that I didn't even make. You either don't understand what's going on or you have no integrity. Neither is good.

It's pretty obvious what you believe, and you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Hillary can have all the love of the free world she wants...........while she would have continued American imperialism. But hey, she would have the support of our allies because she speaks pretty lol. Congratulations! You win the shiny happy feely award! Other countries still hate us and people like you that perpetuate imperialists like Hillary.

What did they "save" us from? It wasn't 17 intelligence agencies that completed the "Intelligence Community Assessment" either. That is a lie that is going around. It was 3 (FBI, CIA, NSA - "two dozen or so analysts hand picked" ). They saved us from a half-ass alleged conspiracy theory that was based on biased information from biased sources. They saved us from FB and Twitter memes? A supposed "hack" that they showed no proof of? The hack that the DNC wouldn't let the FBI investigate. They took the word of a 3rd party corporation with conflicts of interest out their wazoo in CrowdStrike! Anyway, the "hack" pointed out just how corrupt the DNC and Hillary were, but people like you ignore that lol. You still wanted Hillary. They took a shit on democracy and a rival candidate, but not a peep out of people like you for that lol. They even admitted it in a court of law that they have every right to suppress democracy because they are a "private entity", the DNC. They fucked another candidate in an election. So please don't give me your faux concern bullshit for democracy. What's the sense of having elections in the Democratic Primary if they can just legally pull that shit because they're a "private entity"?

You talk about keeping voters from voting by saying what I'm saying. It's not my intention and a creation of your own mind. I can't make them do anything. The only people who keep voters from voting is the voters who don't vote and the establishment. People who don't vote don't like the choices we have. Change the system to rank choice voting and I'm sure voter turnout will probably increase. Offer better candidates from your party and voter turnout will probably increase. You act like half the population just started to not vote. It's been going on since we've started having elections in the history of the country. Although, the numbers really dipped at the start of the 1900s. You dismiss non-voters. You offer nothing but judgment on them. Politicians have offered them even less. Maybe you should be judging the politicians that offer them the same old, but you won't do that. You are an elitist in that sense. You don't have to agree with them not voting, but they obviously don't vote for a reason. You have completely dismissed their concerns and reasons for whatever reason you have. I don't know, maybe you think they're lazy, or stupid, or conspiracy theorists. I would assume a lot of people don't vote because they know the shit that these parties pull like the DNC did to Bernie.

I agree with you that Democratic Party presidential winners have had to clean up after Republican administrations in at least the modern era (usually after Republicans borrow money we don't have), but was Obama cleaning up GWBs draconian legislation in the Patriot Act, or the NDAA, or NSA spying, or when he pardoned GWB's CIA torturers, or when he not only continued bombing Iraq and Afghanistan but also expanded wars to FIVE other countries? No, he and the Democrats were just fine with that. So I don't want to hear your partisan bullshit. As to the opposition obstruction bullshit, both parties do it. It doesn't make it right FOR EITHER.

You have constructed your entire argument on a strawman. Do I fucking have to say it again? I NEVER SAID BOTH PARTIES WERE COMPLETELY THE SAME. They have the same corporate and foreign policy.

You seem to continuously ignore questions made to you or when someone brings something up you really can't have a good answer for. You surely don't want to say Hillary would have not been in favor of regime change etc. Cause if you do I would just show you all the times where Hillary used her own hawkish language in opposition to the countries mentioned, or her support for the Iraq war or other wars. You know she's a hawk, and so does everyone else. Others are honest about it though.

Now continue to ignore what people ACTUALLY say to continue your partisan bullshit narrative.

@Piece2YourPuzzle ..know … with a lead-in like: “You continue to purposefully misconstrue” - followed by: “It's pretty obvious what you believe, and you obviously don't know what you're talking about.” ...you’ve lost my attention ..and any semblance of respect.. My time must be earned ~

@Varn You are very arrogant, and I don't give a shit if I have your respect lol. It's not a good look for you. I mean I understand you have no good argument, but do try.

Although he has initiated a trade war with China he is probably an admirer of President Xi who has managed to make himself president for life. I'm sure Trump would like to copy him.

@Moravian 45 has actually said he thinks making himself "president for life" is a good idea. He made the comment, supposedly in jest, right after Xi made his declaration. Whenever 45 says anything "in jest", he is totally freaking serious.
He never wanted to be president. He wants to be emperor. He doesn't want the constraints of having to operate within the law.
There is only one way to get rid of this guy. The longer we wait, the more apparent that will become.

@KKGator I can much more easily imagine everyone in authority around Trump simply ignoring him if he "refuses" to leave. Of course, I've suffered from a failure of imagination before in regards to Trump.

@greyeyed123 It is going to get downright ugly. With this asshole, it's always best to expect the worst from him.
People keep thinking that it couldn't possibly be "that bad".
Just wait.

@KKGator If the election is close, or if there are allegations of election meddling that are (or believed to be) credible by a large number of voters...you could be right. My hope in humanity makes me want to believe that even lackeys he puts in place to protect him from the law and reality will abandon him once he's voted out. Many, I'm convinced, deeply hate his guts, but are stuck in this situation, and tell themselves they are "fighting the good fight" from within by trying to curb his worst impulses.

I really have a difficult time believing orders will be taken from someone who has been voted out of office. But if the facts on the ground are muddied enough...it could indeed get ugly.

@greyeyed123 I don't share your optimism. Too many of his idiot supporters will cause trouble, because they will believe he wants them to.
He's been setting the table for this since the campaign. Bannon has been advocating for an end to the republic, as well. Bannon might be out of the WH, but 45 is still talking to him regularly.
Don't forget, 45 still has Stephen Miller running point on immigration.
That's part of this, too.

i see "don't worry" comments here. but he could try to impose martial law.

@KKGator Bannon told Wolf basically that he didn't think Trump would be reelected. Trump threw him under the bus anyway, so they have a strained relationship. But Bannon just seems Trump as a tool to his nationalist ends. Miller is the same. Others are more inscrutable to me.

Kellyanne, for instance. I'm convinced there is some significant possibility that she hates Trump's guts. Wolff in "Siege" suggests the reason Kellyanne's marriage hasn't fallen apart amid her husband's tweets is that they are actually in agreement about Trump, and the tweets act as a kind of catharsis for both of them. There have been a couple of very brief instances in which Kellyanne's micro-expressions seemed to give her away. I can't remember the context of one, but Trump said something incredibly stupid and she made a face like, "Oh god, I can't believe he said that and now I'm going to have to defend it."

The other was after she said "alternative facts" to Chuck Todd. She immediately knew she stuck her foot in it, but there was absolutely no where else for her to go. She'd been cornered by defending lies. She pauses ever so briefly before uttering "alternative facts," and when Chuck Todd cannot suppress a laugh, she also smiles at how ridiculous her statement was. (There are many other "micro expressions" in that interview that give her away. She's too smart to believe the baloney she spews.)

@TheDoubter I can see him suspending the Constitution, habeas corpus, implementing martial law, and deploying the military to control the civilian population. I can see him doing that on a fucking whim.

@greyeyed123 Again, you are most definitely far more optimistic than I.

@KKGator I'm with you, KK. Trump has from election defeat to Jan. 2021 inauguration day to concoct some BS reason to retain power.

@TheDoubter Like I said, he started this shit back during the campaign.
He's already started saying the election is "rigged" again.
He's setting it up so if he doesn't get his desired results, he can declare the election invalid.
Wait and see. He's going to try to pull some shady shit.
That's what he does.

@KKGator i agree with you. any time something doesn't go his way, Trump claims it's illegal, rigged , based on lies, etc. i think he'll go to any lengths to remain in office. the president or congress can impose martial law, which suspends all constitutional rights

@TheDoubter He needs to be dispatched, with extreme prejudice, and his little Pence, too.

@TheDoubter He's just as bad as 45, only in other ways.
He's been laying low for a while.
That asshole still thinks he's going to be president.

@kkgator yes he has . No doubt about it. But it is not happening.

@Bigwavedave Pence is one of those duplicitous motherfuckers.
He acts all pious, but he is closeted and depraved.
I hope that all comes out soon.

@KKGator my brother in law is a pretty fine shot. If we have a whip round he might do some moonlighting for us!

@Geoffrey51 I'll be happy for all the assistance we can get. We'll need it.
People need to realize it's not just the whackjob trumptards who believe
in the 2nd Amendment.

@thinktwice maybe syphilis . And his mushroom dick falls off.

Trump and thinking are mutually exclusive.

It's been his plan all along.