Is the universe infinite?
To begin, I will say that we will most likely never actually know if the universe is infinite or finite. We know the observable universe is finite, but I am talking about the entire universe.. the one that most likely exists beyond the observable boundary.
I will also say that we can't really prove it one way or another. If I say the universe is infinite and we travel beyond the observable boundary, I can show you the universe keeps going and going. At any point, you can say "well you can't prove that it doesn't end just over the 'horizon'". I can take you beyond the 'horizon' and show you it keeps going and going and again, you can say that doesn't prove it doesn't end at some point.
In the same way, if I say the universe is finite and we travel to a physical boundary that we can't travel beyond, you can say "well you can't prove that something doesn't exist beyond said boundary, just that we can't travel to it".
So scientifically, it's not falsifiable. Yes, at some point you can consider it proven.. but it's impossible to prove what is and isn't beyond any observational/physical boundaries.
In essence, it's a philosophical/logical problem. To "solve" this problem, I personally employ Occam's razor. The theory with the least amount of speculation/assumptions.. and in doing so, I end up with the conclusion that the universe is infinite.
With the assumption that it's infinite, you really only need to make one assumption.. that what we see within the observable universe continues beyond the observable boundary.
With the assumption that it's finite.. you have many assumptions. You have to assume where the universe ends, how it ends, the total amount of matter/energy, the total amount of galaxies, black holes, stars, and planets. You have to assume limits.
Another way to look at it, if you hold you thumb out at arm's length, under your thumbnail is tens to hundreds of thousands of other galaxies. No matter what part of the sky you cover with your thumbnail, there are countless other galaxies contained in that area, within the observable universe.
Every single one of those galaxies has its own observable universe, just like we do. Just like us, they see the rest of the universe expanding away from them.
At the edge of our observable universe, there are galaxies that are expanding away from us at near light speed. To us, they are expanding away from us near the speed of light. To them, we are expanding away from them at the speed of light.
This also means that we share part of our observable universes, I'd say about 1/4 to 1/3. The rest of their observable universe exists beyond our observable universe. In terms of assumptions, it's safe to assume that the rest of their observable universe is similar to our observable universe.. it's only one assumption.
If you assume that the rest of their observable universe is different, you have to assume what is different, how it is different, and why it is different.
If you accpet that a galaxy at the very edge of our observable universe has an observable universe similar to ours, then you can extend that even further. At the opposite end of their observable universe, there will be a galaxy with its own observable universe.
The process would repeat. At the edge of one's observable universe is a galaxy with its own observable universe, which would give you a daisy chain of observable universes that extends with no limit.
Now, there are a lot of assumptions (woo) that people like to make when it comes to an infinite universe. Things like anything you can think of as being true somewhere in the vast infinite universe. Things like an infinite versions of yourself on an infinite amount of Earths, much like the multiverse theory. I don't subscribe to those beliefs. A possibility without proof is just that, a possibility.
So yeah, while we will most likely never know if the universe if infinite or not, I choose to form a belief that it is infinite based on my logic.
What's that mean for the big bang theory? I don't know, but the big bang theory only deals with our observable universe and I don't believe that our observable universe is all that there is.
So what do you think in terms of the universe being finite or infinite? And if you care to, why do you think that?
4
Enjoy being online again!
Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.Create your free account
33 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Last I heard, it (the universe) is finite but unbounded.
If this reminds you of the sound of one hand clapping, you are not alone! 
Flyingsaucesir
Level 8
June 25, 2019
2
According to quantum gravity theory space is not the smooth infinite expanse that we think. Space consists of a finite number of granules of planck length size. Whenever we formulate questions involving distance or location we are basing our questions on our limited way of perceiving reality, the model of matter moving through space and time. Such questions are meaningless and have no answers at the cosmic level.
It’s very intriguing and puzzling. No one understands ultimate reality beyond the senses.
WilliamFleming
Level 8
June 25, 2019
3
It bis not just the senses, there is no writen promise which says that the human brain has to be able to understand everything. The human brain evolved as a survival tool on the plains of Africa, that we can understand more than we need just to survive is mere accident, and another thing we do not know is the limits of what we can understand.
@Fernapple Very good point.
@Fernapple It seems to be possible for us to verify via experimentation that certain strange things are true, even if intuitively we do not know what that exactly means (or that it makes no sense to us in relation to any other context). Quantum mechanics seems to have some of these results, at least insofar as my amateur understanding allows.
I think it's established our universe is finite. The real question is whether there are an infinite number of other universes.
godef
Level 7
June 26, 2019
1
@desertastronomer Though matter cannot actually expand, the space between and surround the matter can and does expand and contract as well.
For example, heat a dish/pan of water, the water level rises BUT the MASS of the water remains exactly the same, ergo, the space between the atoms and molecules has expanded, NOT the atoms, etc, themselves.
@desertastronomer Space does not expand - matter can move apart giving the illusion of expansion.
@desertastronomer Sorry about that my Friend, I hit the wrong reply icon/button that time.
@desertastronomer Imho, I sincerely doubt if @gator could manage to explain his way out of a wet paper bag.
@Sealybobo No - what you are missing is that the true meaning of space is the complete absence of matter. The Universe is infinite space, with matter interacting at a constant rate - which we call time. Gravity is created by large quantities of matter, and gravity only effects other matter. Gravity has no effect on time or space.
How can that be so claimed when in all reality we CANNOT see the very limits/edges of the Universe?
I don't know but I can tell you what is infinite. The opinions you will get to answer this question!
rainmaker-47
Level 5
June 26, 2019
2
This makes my little brain pop
Amisja
Level 8
June 26, 2019
2
Don't worry, I just posted this below and it may be interesting to youa as well, if only in humour. There is no writen promise which says that the human brain has to be able to understand everything. The human brain evolved as a survival tool on the plains of Africa, that we can understand more than we need just to survive is mere accident, and another thing we do not know is the limits of what we can understand.
It is thought that the shape of the Universe resembles a toroid. If so, if you were able travel to the edge of the toroid, you would bend around the exterior dimensions of the toroid and never realize that you had reached the external limit.
t1nick
Level 8
June 25, 2019
1
If we go off of what we observe and not what we calculate, we like in a 3 (4 including time) dimensional universe. To me, in a 3/4D universe, if we travel in a straight line, we will simply be traveling in a straight line.
you will still be travelling in a stright line as you curve around the toroid as the thevUniverse is sooooo expansive that your path remains a straight line.
@t1nick Don't let any Flat Earth believers see this..
@FatherOfNyx
lol. Its all a matter of perspective and frame of refetence
The way that I understand it there is no finite level of the micro world as well as macro. Looks like a really intriguing continuum to me.
Geoffrey51
Level 8
June 25, 2019
2
I have asked this question of an astrophysicist friend of mine (he's a Professor of Astrophysics at Berkeley) and he succinctly explained that no one knows. Physicists cannot agree, they all have their own opinions. They don't know if the Laws of Physics are universal, or if their might be other laws in other parts of the Universe. We do have an "observable" Universe, but that could be possibly limited by what we are capable of observing at this point. Presently the "Curved space" finite Universe (likened to an ant walking on the inside surface of a balloon) is the theory accepted by the majority, but they could easily be wrong. Anyone who has a definite answer, like a number of people here seem to have, is probably wrong, though there is the possibility they may have guessed correctly, we don't know, and probably never will know; we don't even know if the powers to observe are finite or infinite. Just as no one can prove or disprove the existence of a god, we cannot prove or disprove the exact nature of the Universe; everyone has their own theory which they prefer to believe is right. I personally prefer to believe in the oscillating Big Bang theory, but that is just me. It is not a question I lose any sleep over.
My friend, by the way, is Ed Wishnow. If you have questions you could contact him, and if he has the time or inclination, he might respond.
[ssl.berkeley.edu]
StevenWilbur
Level 7
June 27, 2019
1
Best reply so far. I actually think I had him on my list of astronomers/astrophysicists to reach out to beforr, but I was getting tired of feeling the eyeroll through email when I brought up the possibility of a scientific theory that focuses on real observations but doesn't include the big bang.
@FatherOfNyx Here's one to add to your collection, though it seems to propose a finite universe.
[phys.org]
@StevenWilbur Yeah, there's been a number of studies popping up lately that talk about their theories that don't include a big bang. Sounds counterproductive, but I have only been reaching out to those who follow the big bang. Didn't want to reach out to someone who already doesn't believe the big bang happened just to confirm my bias.
The universe could be infinite. If it is, it will be very much like the god of the believers. They claim their god always existed, so why not the universe? In recent times believers want to protect their god by claiming he exists in another dimension. Who would ever have guessed and how would we ever know for sure?
DenoPenno
Level 9
June 26, 2019
1
The cool thing about an infinite universe that has always existed, there'd be no creation point, no beginning. If it was never created, there's no need to believe in a creator. I've actually discussed this with some of my religious friends and they oppose an infinite universe with no beginning more than any scientific explanation on the beginning, such as the big bang.
To my very humble opinion, I think there is one single universe, it's infinite and so is the amount of matter and energy in it. Infinite from the infinitely large to the infinitely small, from the infinite past to the infinite future and so on.
QuidamOutrepont
Level 8
June 26, 2019
1
Big bang deals with all universe.
And by big bang even the universe being finite, you will never find the border, because the universe is not "straight". It is curved.
If you could move in a straight line faster than the expansion you would end after some time in the same point you started.
Like earth surface, is finite, but there is not a border where the surface ends.
Pedrohbds
Level 7
June 26, 2019
1
No, it really only deals with our observable universe. We don't know what's beyond, but the big bang doesn't factor it in.
@FatherOfNyx You should read some cosmologists. We have some evidence for some of the answers to your questions.
Can I get some of what you've been smoking?
@FatherOfNyx ok, there can be pink unicorns that move faster than light an fart nuclear rainbows outside observable universe, but unless we say that we are in a special part of the total universe, it tends to be the same everywhere
@Pedrohbds That's a point I've made this entire thread.. and if you apply your own words to it, that it tends to be the same everywhere, you end up with an infinte universe.
@FatherOfNyx not exactly, if the universe is curve there is no border, but it can be finite.
Just like earth. There is alyays things far away no matter where you go, does not mean it is infinite surface. Is just that the surface is curve
@Pedrohbds If you specify a shape or part of a shape, such as a curve, there needs to be a border to define the shape. If there is no border, there is no way for you to theorize a shape.
Now I want you to take your own words "it tends to be the same everywhere" and actually apply them to what we observe. We observe a 3 dimensional universe. Our observable universe is a sphere. We also know that each galaxy is at the center of its own observational sphere. At this very moment, there are countless galaxies spread out across the edge of our observational sphere. If it tends to be the same everywhere, you can say that each of those galaxies has their own observational sphere that extends beyond ours.. and every single one of those spheres also has countless galaxies spread out across their edge. Every single one of those galaxies alsl have their own observational spheres and so on and so on.
If everything tends to be the same everywhere, then you'll be left with a daisy chain of observable universes in any direction you look in our 3 dimensional reality that extend forever.
@FatherOfNyx you forget one thing.
Think about a circle.
A bring that is limited to 1d can see some extention of the line to one side and to the other side, and by your way of thinking the circle woyld have infinite perimeter.
That's because the 1d creature can't perceive the curvature in the second dimension, so it don't understand that at some point even if all 1d creatures never see a frontier, the space will start to repeat
@Pedrohbds We are 3D beings living in a 3D reality. Time is considered the 4th dimension only because you can't talk about space without considering time. Your example would work if we were 3D beings living in a literal 4D reality.
@FatherOfNyx aaaaaand that is the point, there are other dimensions, time is not constant, it can be bent, stretched, compressed... That is what general relativity is about.
Light does not make curves, but the space that the light is traveling is curving.
Einstein stopped looking at the actors and started to think about the stage.
Some hypothesis(that give some nice and accurate results but not enough to be considered a theory) postulate even 11 space dimensions.
And even time is not that constant. The universe is 13.6 billion years old considering places not close to big agglomerations of mass.
Things turning close to event horizons for millennia on our POV are experiencing only a few seconds, and as they get close this stretching of time increases at the point they reach the event horizon and basically what happens (simplifying because the real thing is way more complex) is that
T1 = T0/SomeC
Where T1 is time under this heavy effects close to the event horizon
T0 is time outside this events
SomeC is a constant based on the acceleration, speed, etc that is where most of complexity lies.
As you get close to light speed or to an event horizon/singularity, this constant goes close to zero, and at the event horizon or at speed of light this constant is ZERO and division by zero is not something we can deal with, but it happens.
AND that is why we do not know exactly what happens inside a black hole or in times close to the big bang, because time at this places makes no sense, time is a division by zero there, and we do not have theory to deal with is until now.
Space works in almost the same way and that is why makes no sense in talking BEFORE big bang and when I say that space was not occupied by big bang but is being created by big bang.
Big bang is a balloon being blow and the universe is not the air inside or the volume in this analogy, is the rubber, more surface is being "created", not a border being expanded, more 3d space is being created as the universe expands.
Space and time at the big bang were big divisions by zero by our modern ways to explain it, that is why it is a misery. And we know that the theory has a flaw, because universe exists and divisions by zero don't, but for all other situations that are not divisions by zero the relativity works, so until we get something better, that's what we have.
@Pedrohbds No, all the other dimensions proposed in string theory are unproven and still only exist in theory. So we cannot say for sure they exist. As of now, we can say that there are 3 spatial dimensions proven to exist and the 4th being time.
If you could prove their existence beyond what other scientists say, then you'll be up for a Nobel.
@FatherOfNyx as I say, hypothesis that generate ingesting results, but no experiment yet.
But in case of space curve, things like the deformed orbit of mercur and stars moving during solar eclipses show that space can be curved. This and other things like gravit waves, GPS corrections etc.
The correct answer and the one which truly separates the rational from the theist is. 'Don't know.' Almost all cosmologists accept these ideas only at the level of hypothesis not theory, and all of them are considered to be highly speculative. There is no written promise which says that the human brain has to be able to understand everything. The human brain evolved as a survival tool on the plains of Africa, that we can understand more than we need just to survive is mere accident, and another thing we do not know is the limits of what we can understand. You made a really nice summing of our current understanding, but the use of Occam's Razor is not appropriate in this situation, and the usage is a popular misunderstanding of it not the original.
Fernapple
Level 9
June 26, 2019
1
This is true, like I said, we will never know.. but that shouldn't keep us from trying. I tend to think I throw out useless information like religion, politics, sports, how to pee in the toilet, etc.. in light of things like trying to understand the cosmos.
@FatherOfNyx You have no way to know if "we will never know" something, so that's a dangerous position to take.
@greyeyed123 Well in order to know, we will have to travel faster than the speed of light as things beyond our observable universe are expanding away from us faster than the speed of light. As of now, it's not possible to travel faster than the speed of light which would make it impossible to ever reach anything beyond our observational boundary.
@FatherOfNyx That is partially true. I encourage you to read some books on this. They are very interesting.
@greyeyed123 It's completely true actually. You act like I haven't been reading up on this pretty much since I was 9.. There is a point in space where space is expanding away from us faster than the speed of light. That means, as long as expansion continues, we will never be able to travel to or even see any light emitted beyond that point without being able to travel faster than the speed of light. The further you get out, the faster objects expand away from us.. so there can be galaxies expanding away from us at 3 times the speed of light, 100 times the speed of light, even more. Depending on how large the universe is, the further an object is, the faster it's expanding away from us. If the universe beyond what we can observe is 178,048,382 trillion light years across, you could have galaxies expanding away from us at thousands to millions of times the speed of light. There's no way we will ever see any information from them without figuring out how to travel faster than light speed or instantly warp through spacetime.
@FatherOfNyx Is the universe a flat, open, or closed system? How is the total matter and energy in the universe related to the total amount of gravity in the universe? What is the nature of space-time in relation to matter/energy, gravity, and thermodynamics?
@FatherOfNyx Also, explain how distant galaxies travel away from us faster than the speed of light without the speed of light ever having been broken (this isn't a trick question; there is an actual answer).
@greyeyed123 Because space is expanding all over. Therefore the farthest things are moving away faster even without moving.
@greyeyed123 Notice how I never said they are traveling away from us? I said they're expanding away from us. Right now, a galaxy that is about 7 billion light years away is expanding away from us at half the speed of light. They appear to be traveling away from us, but at the same time and from their point of view, we appear to be traveling away from them at half the speed of light. We can safely say that we are not traveling at half the speed of light, just like they aren't. It's the same for galaxies that are EXPANDING away from us faster than the speed of light.. they aren't literally traveling.
@FatherOfNyx What about my other questions, and how do their answers relate to whether the universe is infinite or not?
@greyeyed123 As I said in here somewhere, we can't observe beyond our observable universe. We can only work with what we can observe, and that is a finite amount. If the universe is infinite, the closest system to describe it would be open.. but even that isn't entirely accurate as there is information that can't be seen within an observable universe. Same with your other questions, we can only work with the finite observable universe. So any matter that is beyond our observable boundary is going to have little to no effect on gravity within our observable universe.
@FatherOfNyx That is not my understanding of the problems. I will send a physicist over here to help with the discussion. But he's been trolling me for a while so do not be surprised if he says the earth is flat on a turtle with turtles all the way down underneath.
@greyeyed123 I would wager that your understanding is based on the observable universe, which is ok.. but the vast majority of scientists agree that the entire universe is bigger than our observable universe. How much bigger is up for debate, but we are currently forming our scientific theories around our observable universe.
@greyeyed123 And he would be wrong. It's only about 15 layers of turtles and then it's whales after that.
@FatherOfNyx That's not what I was thinking, but I'm sending an expert. I have no idea if he'll show up. Maybe.
the answer is simple, I DON'T KNOW, YOU DON'T KNOW, PHYSICISTS DON'T KNOW, NOBODY KNOWS
Mofo1953
Level 9
June 25, 2019
1
you want to argue with newton?
what is wrong with his findings?
@OwlInASack source?
@OwlInASack, @Snert current knowledge says so, there are many hypothesis but the reality is that nobody knows for sure
@F-IM-Forty science is perfectly ok with saying I don't know
@Snert Newton's ideas did not explain the perihelion of Mercury. He also said we would never be able to learn how the planets got to their orbits, so god had to have put them there. Now we know how they got there, and religious folks just move the goal posts again.
Generally, I do not see any difference between infinity and infinity/0, I consider both undefinable, and at the same time, out of the reach of man's perceptive abilities, therefore, the question may boil down to "Is the universe definable?", and I would say no, because even considering the one universe we know of, we are unable to even see the whole of it, therefore rendering it undefinable, so for all intents and purposes, infinite . . .
THHA
Level 7
June 25, 2019
1
Christians often throw Universe questions at me with the intent of I got all the answers gotcha crap in mind. I simply remind them that they are pretending to know what they can not know. I also add that I do not know myself and never will, but the world has existed for a billion years and done perfectly fine without "knowing" everything about our orgins and I am perfectly happy with accepting my ignorance.
DavidLaDeau
Level 8
Aug 2, 2019
0
The Universe is simple - Time and space are infinite, nothing effects time or space. Gravity is created by matter and only effects other matter.
gater
Level 7
June 27, 2019
0
You know I don't disagree with the possibility of an infinite universe, but you tend to ignore many real observations that we have made. Time dilation being one of them. Observations are much different than theories.
@FatherOfNyx Time Dilation is the effect that gravity has on devices - like GPS - Gravity only effects matter - gravity has no effect on space or time.
@gater It all has an effect on each other.. It's no different than you pushing a door open. Your hand is pushing on the door while the door is pushing on your hand. Space and time affects matter, matter affects space and time equally in return. Gravity affects matter, matter affects gravity. Since space and time are connected to gravity through the effect matter has on them in return, space and time affect gravity and gravity affects space and time.
@FatherOfNyx Gravity is created by matter and only effects matter. Again, Gravity has no effect on space or time.
I have these questions:
- Is this important to our limited lives on Earth?
- Are we scientists? Are we science professors or academics?
- Is this long discussion relevant to our (regular citizens) day to day lives?
- Is General and Hellos the right group to post this in? Why not create a separate group of Scientists, Philosophers etc.?
- If the General and Hellos is the right group, can we not do anything better with our time?
St-Sinner
Level 9
June 27, 2019
0
-
No, but that kind of mind set is how people justify not caring about climate change and the future of Earth imo. Why care about what'll happen in 1,000 years if you won't be around for it?
-
No, does that matter?
-
No, does that matter?
-
Thought I selected the academics/science category. My bad.
-
Masturbate? I don't know, you chose to use time up replying.
1- Of course its important. Understanding the Universe is key to understanding how we got here, and it gives us perspective to the reality of our place in the Universe. The most popular Theory is the Big Bang which is completely wrong - everyone should know the truth.
'I spent one afternoon with Albert Einstein: unpretentiousness, warmth, some false political predictions. I soon lost my self-consciousness, a rare treat for me at that time. I still love to quote a statement of his: “Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.”' Fritz Perls.
doug6352
Level 7
June 26, 2019
0
It just FEELS like it's infinite, right? Like it goes on forever. BUT what's beyond OUR universe? Nothing? If there IS another universe (or an infinite number of them) what's to stop them from colliding?!?
Since I don't enjoy driving myself crazy, I think as little as possible about it.
Is there life on photons and neutrons revoving around their nuceli?
Are WE on a macro-neutron revolving around a macro-nucleus? Are we micro to some other macro?
Is the moon made of green cheese? THAT I know is demonstrably FALSE.
One more thing: the Big Bang? You're kidding, you must be.
Storm1752
Level 8
June 26, 2019
0
Infinite. Gotta go. Kitty wants to play....
TheGreatShadow
Level 9
June 26, 2019
0
I think of universes as being finite and existing within an infinite space-time. Doesn't really matter to me, but it's fun to think about.
stulosophy
Level 4
June 26, 2019
0
Enjoy being online again!
Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.Create your free account
Share this post
Categories
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.