Or maybe a lamb for the Bernieits to get fired up over, dropped, and then they'll feel like they got something and shut up for a bit.

So many more issues to deal with than this.

Why the fuck don't you?

@1of5

I did, I'm free

@Fred_Snerd to me, they aren't. That doesn't mean they aren't slimy, just not as. But broad strokes and shit.

Sounds to me like you need to work on changing state law instead of federal. Good luck, and remember that someone had to change the law into what it is now, so changing it isn't impossible.

@Fred_Snerd thats the spirit! No wonder your states so fucked up.

@Fred_Snerd by the state only recognizing listed, approved parties you're locked into those parties. Fine in a system where you can vote for parties as long as each party listed represents a minimum portion of the population and representation in government is actually proportional based on % of votes received by the partys, horrid when you vote for individuals. We vote for individuals, supposedly, instead of parties, although many just vote lockstep with thier affiliated party.

In a winner take all system it behooves the main parties to reduce the field of competition down to 2 - with only 2 parties it is actually possible to win it all by garnering even a small % over 50 of the vote and 3rd parties can be ignored with little to no consequence, which you see happening every cycle. The only time the major parties need to court and be nice to those who are in thier party but ideologically would be in a viable 3rd party is during the primaries when promises of inclusion are bantered about with most people missing the winks and nods to the main base.

Once the primaries are done all the 3rd parties can do is bitch about being fleeced again and curse and bemoan the major parties for figuring out how to win the system thats been rigged to keep it that way.

Thats why your state is fucked up, and one of the main issues we have nationally, so don't feel to singled out.

@Fred_Snerd apology? You read English, correct?

@Fred_Snerd
I think the dog faced man is saying that your state, and the rest of the country, is fucked up because the two party system has a monopoly on power.

@Fred_Snerd

Biden's mannerisms are rubbing off on me.

@Fred_Snerd

"Biden calls her lying dog faced?"

She was a paid attendee on contract to embarrass Biden in this townhall. Biden's response was appropriate. She should have been thrown out instead.

I totally agree. They are both my way or the highway. Neither of them really get how democracy works if it is to work.

Who can be talked out of their position? You, perhaps?

@Sticks48
Democracy is supposed to drift forever rightward?

@skado I am progressive, but I find most progressives are as unbendable as the far right. Democracy means compromise. It will and always has drifted left and right, sometimes depending on what is going on at the time. We are a centrist country and I believe as long as religion has a stronghold on this country it will remain that way. When we put religion in its proper place like most European countries have we can move toward more progressive ideas. The economy might force us there anyway.

@Sticks48
In what way are progressives unbendable? Everybody votes for whoever they think best represents them and then everyone lives with the results. There is no correct position. The person who represents your interests is the person who represents your interests; if you vote against your own interests you have no one but yourself to blame. There is always plenty of opportunity for compromise after the votes are counted. THAT is how democracy works.

@skado Let me narrow that down to the Bernie folks. I vote for whomever can beat the Republican, Biden was not my choice and Bernie was not my choice, but I felt like Biden had the best chance of beating Trump, so that is who I went with. I agree with Bernie on policy, but most Americans don't, plus I knew the angry old man bit never works in a run for the Presidency. I vote to win, not to make me feel good about my choice. Any Democrat gets me closer to what I want than any Republican. The Republican will always take it backwards, always. Any Democrat will move it forward even if it is just a little bit.

@Sticks48
You voted the way you wanted to, and I voted the way I wanted to. That’s democracy.

@skado He was a primary candidate, and that was what I was talking about. There were Dems who voted for Bernie anyway. Pissing in the wind is never a good idea.Instead of the Bernie folks getting behind Biden once he got the nod, they just kept and keep on whining. I want them to quit whining, put on their big boy pants, and support this President and the folks he chooses. He needs to choose the people he is comfortable with, not who everyone thinks he should choose. He has to work with these people. We don't. He represents the most diverse, complicated political party in the history of the world. We need to support him in everyway possible.

@skado No shit. If more Dems had voted smarter or voted at all in 2016 we would be living in a better world than we are now. Americans are disappointingly stupid.

That is a really outrageous comparison to make.

Shameless Bernie

Watch the bigger-than-Trump liar and phony president-wanna-be forever aka the most unfit presidential candidate ever, hunchback, socialist-to-the bone, commie candidate Bernie Sanders in 1981 who was a self professed socialist and kept shamelessly denying to be a socialist ever in the two times failed presidential campaigns.

@Zoltans_Queen No it isn't. It is fact. Some 100 million eligible voters did not vote. Dems historically don't vote if not fired up, where Republicans almost always vote. Plus they know many Americans admitted after the election they did not want a woman for President. That is a definition of stupid. I know of what I speak. If you think we would be in the same position if Clinton were President then you are delusional.

@Sticks48
You get to choose who you support.
I get to choose who I support.
You can disrespect my choices by calling them whining
and I could do the same to your choices,
or I could respect that we have different interests
and are freely supporting our own respective interests
the way democracy allows.
I will continue to campaign for egalitarianism
and I trust you will continue to campaign for neoliberalism
but I won't call you names just because you want something different from what I want.
We both get to pursue what we want under democracy.
We just want different things.
No prob.
Best wishes.

@Sticks48

I don't know why you are speaking to me with so much aggression. I was not talking to you.

My comment was on bertflipper's post about Bernie people being as bad as Trump people.

@Zoltans_Queen @Sticks48

Sorry to intrude here but there is no doubt that Bernie followers are as delusional as Trump followers are and Bernie himself is as big a liar as Trump is. I think Bernie is the biggest lying and phony candidate this country has ever seen.

@Zoltans_Queen I agree with Bitflipper. I have been talking to whiny Bernie people for months. They are as uncompromising as the far right. It is their way or no way.

@Zoltans_Queen, @skado What name did I call you? By and large Bernie people were always complaining they were robbed. Who does that sound like? They could not accept Bernie couldn't get it done in the primary. He did worse against Biden than Clinton. All I am saying is people on the left need to quit going after Biden before he has even taken the oath. Bernie certainly didn't have some magic bullet to change things and most likely would have met way more resistance from the center and the right. I would imagine you and I would probably agree on most things like a national healthcare system, and free college or at least a very affordable tuition to include everyone an opportunity. I am a big believer in a system similar to the nordic countries.

@Sticks48
If you want it you have to be willing to risk something for it.

@skado In politics you have to use common since not emotions. Everytime people vote third party if they have an effect at all they help put the person in office they dislike the most and take them farther away from what they want. Gore v Bush v Nader is the most recent and disastrous example of people not using intellect over emotion.

@Sticks48

sense

@Sticks48

It's been very different in my experience. I find that Bernie supporters are firm in what they believe and vocal about it but reasonable and willing to communicate in good faith. I've gotten along with most of them I've ever spoken to. Most of the MAGA crowd isn't like that at all. They just call you a commie cuck when they find out you're not one of them and have little to no willingness and/or ability to have anything like a productive conversation.

Maybe it's because I mostly agree with the Bernie supporters, I did vote for him in the primary, but I stand very firm in my original comment that comparing them to Trump people is absolutely outrageous. I've seen plenty of abuse come their way, such as this accusation made by burtflipper, and I hardly ever see them engage in that sort of behavior themselves.

I'm glad to hear that you believe in the Nordic model. I do also. I'm wondering, how do you think we will ever get there if the people trying to take us there get shit on by people who also want to go there just for being outspoken?

@Zoltans_Queen You are right, the right is very scary. The left are not. My experience with the far left has been that Biden would be no different than Trump and the Dems screwed Bernie. Both of those statements could not be farther from the truth. It was very frustrating for me.There were many adamant if it wasn't Bernie they just wouldn't vote. The old "watch this, fuck me" approach to politics. I did not mean to come of so aggressive. I apologise for coming off that way. Obviously we both agree what the country should be. I am afraid as long as religion has such a trong hold on this nation we will be stuck where we are for the most part. maybe this will change in your lifetime, but it is doubtful I will see it.

@Sticks48

I appreciate the apology. I think you were getting heated with someone else and you saw my comment and responded with the same tone you were using with him. No big deal.

I wish the Bernie supporters were more supportive of the party overall, but I also can't hold it against those who didn't fall in line. All they got out of Biden and the centrists were task forces and a few promises which I'm pretty sure will turn out to be false. I think Bernie is to blame for this also, he could have withheld his support for Biden until more concrete concessions were agreed to. The Biden campaign made a conscious decision to turn their backs on the progressives in order to pursue moderates and republicans. So of course they were going to lose some of the voters on the left. I'm just glad that strategy worked and Trump will soon be gone.

@St-Sinner

Sanders is the biggest liar the country has ever had? More so than Trump?

You're joking

@Zoltans_Queen

I am not joking. Sanders has lied over and over again. Once a commie and self declared socialist, he was trying to convince people that he was none of either and you fell for it. Trump did not lie about taking full advantage of the laws and loopholes. Trump just did not fit into our unrealistic expectations of we wanting a virtuous man in the White House. Trump's philandering, extravagant lifestyle were fully known for decades before he ran for president and importantly Trump was not a commie or a socialist.

Trump was very bad and Sanders was beyond bad - he was terrible, unfit to even expect to be president. He had nothing in him deserving to be president. He thought a tempest a teapot of some "Occupy Wall Streeters" was a national movement. LOL. He fell on face flat two times in a row nationally big time but don't forget Trump has succeeded in most things in his life.

Therefore, in the practical sense, Sanders was a huge failure compared to Trump. I said this in spite of a deep dislike of Trump. So imagine how terrible Sanders must be.

@Zoltans_Queen, @skado

If you want it you have to be willing to risk something for it?

Risk yourself, your life but don't risk other people's money and take them for a ride for your personal ambition and misadventure by riding on poor and common people's back. Do this only when you are capable. Sanders was not.

@St-Sinner

I'm so sorry, you are tragically misinformed.

@Zoltans_Queen

No, I am not. Bernie followers are.

THE TRUTH ABOUT BERNIE
Bernie is not just a socialist but he has been a communist.
​
Read below and be assured that all of Bernie's dirt will be out in the public and nail old Bernie on the wall in Washington DC, so that everybody can see what a terrible candidate we stupid democrats can pick. After all, Trump said that "Bernie's nomination would be a dream come true."
​
Bernie has had communist tendencies for a long time. [nypost.com]

1. While attending the University of Chicago in 1964, Sanders joined the Young People’s Socialist League, the youth wing of the Socialist Party USA
2. He organized for a communist front, the United Packinghouse Workers Union, which at the time was under investigation by the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
3. After graduating with a political science degree, Sanders moved to Vermont, where he headed the American People’s History Society, an organ for Marxist propaganda.
4. Bernie produced a glowing documentary on the life of socialist revolutionary Eugene Debs, who was jailed for espionage during the Red Scare and hailed by the Bolsheviks as “America’s greatest Marxist.”
5. This Eugene Debs, the subversive hero of Sanders, denounced even by liberal Democrats as a “traitor,” bashed “the barons of Wall Street” and hailed the “triumphant” Bolshevik revolution in Russia.
6. “Those Russian comrades of ours have made greater sacrifices, have suffered more, and have shed more heroic blood than any like number of men and women anywhere on Earth,” Debs proclaimed. “They have laid the foundation of the first real democracy that ever drew the breath of life in this world.”
7. In a 1918 speech in Canton, Ohio, Debs reaffirmed his solidarity with Lenin and Trotsky, despite clear evidence of their violent plunder and treachery.
8. Sanders still hangs a portrait of communist Eugene Debs on the wall in his Senate office.
9. After failed runs for Congress, Sanders in 1981 managed to get elected mayor of Burlington, Vt., where he restricted property rights for landlords, set price controls and raised property taxes to pay for communal land trusts. Local small businesses distributed fliers complaining their new mayor “does not believe in free enterprise.”
10. Sanders took several “goodwill” trips not only to the USSR, but also to Cuba and Nicaragua, where the Soviets were trying to expand their influence in our hemisphere.
11. In 1985, he traveled to Managua to celebrate the rise to power of the Marxist-Leninist Sandinista government. He called it a “heroic revolution.” Undermining anti-communist US policy, Sanders denounced the Reagan administration’s backing of the Contra rebels in a letter to the Sandinistas.
12. His betrayal did not end there. Sanders lobbied the White House to stop the proxy war and even tried to broker a peace deal. He adopted Managua as a sister city and invited Sandinista leader Daniel Ortega to visit the US. He exalted Ortega as “an impressive guy,” while attacking President Reagan.
13. Sanders also adopted a Soviet sister city outside Moscow and honeymooned with his second wife in the USSR. He put up a Soviet flag in his office, shocking even the Birkenstock-wearing local liberals. At the time, the Evil Empire was on the march around the world, and threatening the US with nuclear annihilation.
14. Then, in 1989, as the West was on the verge of winning the Cold War, Sanders addressed the national conference of the US Peace Council — a known front for the Communist Party USA, whose members swore an oath not only to the Soviet Union but to “the triumph of Soviet power in the US.”

@St-Sinner

That's pretty funny.

@Zoltans_Queen

If Bernie really cared for his cause, his followers, his revolution, his nation, there are many things he could have done in his long have-nothing-to-show-for 30 years in Washington.

Bernie has been in politics and ranting against Millionaires and Billionaires for 55 years but he could not do any of these to help his own cause

1. Start a think tank to spread his message, explain policies and cause to American voters, educate voters
2. Start supporting, endorsing and fundraising for progressive candidates early on
3. Start a grass root movement to help the rise of progressives right from local levels (starting from school boards) just like the Tea Party did
4. Author any signature bill that strongly support his cause, work diligently to garner support in the Congress - not just in the Senate. American voter at large cannot name a single bill in the last 50 years that Bernie wrote, pushed and got passed. None.
5. Be a king maker to pick and choose new and young candidates across the nation at all levels starting way back 30 years ago. Other than AOC recently, Bernie's record of launching young candidates is very poor in his career
6. Fucking retire and get the fuck out of the Senate and make way for another young promising candidate in his place. But Noooo, he wanted the paycheck, the comforts and power. We also know that he never proposed term limits for Congress members. Why would he?
7. Launch his own party. He never did that because he knew, he would never succeed. Now for his personal ambition of becoming president after one serious heart attack - by hijacking another party platform that he was not a member of for the last 50 years. Bernie is symbol of selfishness.

Bernie's a fear monger. He keeps ranting about punishing the rich, taxing the rich but does not talk much about why he needs 4 homes and is among Millionaires and Billionaires.

Bernie is not a uniter. He is huge polarizer. He has polarized Democrats across the nation that he intended to lead.

@Zoltans_Queen

Bernie was so stupid and kept misleading in spite of knowing he could not be elected.

It is not a rocket science to understand why Bernie and Buttigieg cannot be elected. America is not ready to elect a candidate with these demographics.

1. Gay
2. Mormon
3. Atheist
4. Muslim
5. Hindu
6. Jew
7. Communist
8. Self proclaimed white supremacist
   ............
9. A black president is also very unlikely for another 15 years. Obama was a very rare exception. He was very good, he came during a perfect storm (anger against Iraq war, against Bush and Cheney, also about Rumsfeld, serious economic meltdown, and a lousy candidate like McCain). This storm will not happen again. America's white majority will elect an average white candidate than a twice as good black candidate if all other things are normal. It has to be a perfect storm.

@St-Sinner

I can see this is an obsession of yours.

I have no interest in communicating with someone who is such a TFG.

@Zoltans_Queen

That's pretty funny.

Try and see if you can digest the truth first.

@Zoltans_Queen

Suddenly have no interest? Lol. You had a lot of interest before this. A lot of love of Sanders. What happened?

Don't run away. Stay and defend your hero. If you have an argument, you should win.

Btw, the truth is a good obsession which you are trying to avoid.

@St-Sinner
Maybe you don’t know the difference between an argument and a pissing match.

I do.

Best of luck.

@skado

I don't think you do after going after a dog that has been pissing on followers by saying "And again I am asking for your financial support" for 7 years in a row.

If you read carefully and remove Bernie lenses, you can see clearly.

@Zoltans_Queen

I see you've met the resident Bernie hater.

That a good call to not engage with him. I butted heads with him for months before I came to the conclusion you did.

@RoboGraham

With his his aggressive attitude and the way that he immediately produced a couple of essays full of lies, I could tell that he's just looking for someone to argue with. To preserve my mental health, I avoid people like that. And I know that I'll never get through to a hard core right winger who actually believes that Bernie Sanders is a communist. It just isn't worth wasting my time and effort on him.

I see that people are mostly ignoring him. I'll do the same.

Great, so she was one of the people who gave us conservative healthcare reform that forced people to pay for profit insurers or be punished. That's just wonderful.

Doesn't matter, thier media has spoken

If I were in Biden's shoes I would resign in 2023 and hand it to Kamala. She'll go into the election as the incumbent, power of the pulpit, and 45 will be denied his target victim; Biden. That would solve this problem with Progressives (of which I'm one), I think.

Be a much better chance of them "winning" sooner if Bernie had taken over a different party - like the social democratic party - instead of trying to turn the democratic party into the social democratic party.

Would Bernie be president ever? Nope, no change on that front, but wouldn't it be nice to hold around 10 house seats about now? Think the dems would have a bit more of a receptive ear to what you want?

@1of5 I've always maintained that all third parties should start at the local and state level and build a following based on their performance that way.

@Fred_Snerd when did he join the democratic party?

@Lorajay absolutely. You need people from your party in both chambers at both the state and federal level, as many as possible, to get anything done.

@Fred_Snerd dude, back up your claim. ...because he's in the Democratic party.

When did he join the democratic party?

@Fred_Snerd

He's an independent. He was only in the undemocratic party briefly during the 16 and 20 primaries.

@Fred_Snerd

Of course not. Bernie is very far from being a Marxist.

@1of5

He joined the party during the 16 and 20 primaries.

@powder I think Democrats will only be one term because the mess that was created by this administration will require some pain from citizens regardless of the policies used to clean it up.

@powder
Hear Hear!