I believe that the internet and social media can help a lot with this. The decentralized dissemination of new information is bringing out a lot of socialist leaning in the millennial and younger age groups.

@DonThiebaut I think the internet is having both a positive and negative effect. Overall it could still go either way. Not just what happened with Russian actions on social media sites but the internet can be censored. If they can do it in China oligarchs can do it elsewhere, even here.

@kmdskit3 that's a fair point. Like any other tool, it can be used in a number of ways. But America has a particularly strong love of our internet, and most of the prior propaganda has been angled at 'limiting' big government. So I think we stand a pretty good chance at fighting back if any national censorship initiative is put into full force. But it's definitely something that we need to keep an eye on.

@kmdskit3 re. "Not only what happened with Russian actions..." Russia continues to actively interfere with social media. Their aim appears to be utterly destructive, to sew ever more dissention in the populace. They are trying their worst to keep us from ever finding constructive consensus. ?

@MikeInBatonRouge I agree completely.

@MikeInBatonRouge The internet is a Tower of Babel. Can't stop the transmitters, need to work on the filters of reception. Putin is greatly admired by white nationalists as the best example of how a country should be led. What Trump has done makes perfect sense if he is a white nationalist. "But he sold weapons to the Ukrkraine. Is that proof he is tough on the Russians?" A. Somebody made a lot of money.
B. Who says those weapons won't end up in the hands of Russians, or their supporters when the Ukrainian soldiers drop their weapons and run.
I can not tell you how much I agree with the perspective that Russia is still our enemy. I have been passively waiting for the boat to float towards socialism. I was wrong. The boat needs guidance and manning of the oars. Trump really exposed the error of my ways. "Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" according to the one percent.

Cooperatives are a fascinating subject to me, but here in the United States they are so rare that it is hard to find any first hand accounts of what they are like. Would you care to share more details about your experiences, how your Cooperative was structured, Etc?

@DonThiebaut we were pretty anarchist, committed to 'workers control not controlled workers as a slogan ' Our children ;We had five children and my two who were older were always allowed to choose what school they went to - at one point my son who was about seven at the time thought that he wasn't learning enough we had several teachers in the commune so he left school and was home schooled by them - We networked with a lot with other communes and there was a communes gathering each year at Beechwood with lots of performance co-ops and new ideas there was talk of a maxi co-op ;a co-op pf co-ops but it didnt really take off so just a lot of meetings.Quite a few commune members hd been to free schools like Summerhill. we shared skills I became a plasterer because it was the only building skill we didnt have at that time can't think of much more to say it was all about equality and 'to each according to the ir needs and 'from each according to their means. It wasnt all work we went out cycling and hill climbing and just playing ith the children I remember it as good times but left that group and went to Liverpool where we set up a different co-operative still building but more co-operative members .I lived in about five different co-ops all with roughly the same sense of wanting a different way of living our lives .

@jacpod that is fascinating. It sounds like your experiences with cooperatives have been much more through the lens of also living in communes. I think that's an admirable goal as an eventuality, but Communes seem to be a bit harder to start then just business cooperatives. What do you think?

@jacpod fascinating! I can't say I have ever heard of anyone who lived their entire adult lifespan in a commune. Every case I have heard of ends with the person leaving after a time. How accurate is that? Any theories to explain It?

@MikeInBatonRouge I didnt live my whole lifespan (weirdly there is a commune called Lifespan) My partner and i left our group because we were getting in the way of others growth- we drove the car and did lots of other things and we were becoming - too much so we came to Liverpool I worked as a builder still mainly plastering which is my trade he was a joiner ,and then the Liverpool Trades Union centre set up a co-operative development agency and i applied for the job and got it. Our video making co-op made a film called "You'll never work alone !" (a pun on Gerrry Masdens YOu'll never walk alone.) Then other supportive groups came to help us nad many new co-ops formed then one of our M.P.s tried to turn round 3 ailing companies riven by strikers and the the old consumer co-op movements stepped up to the plate and before we knew it all our ideals were down the toilet! The biggest co-op before that was Scott Bader and the biggest now is Suma a wholefood co-op that started extremely small

Great insights! From sociology and poly-sci/economics articles I have read, I am left with the impression that wealth indeed equals power and that every existing political system so far tried has failed to some degree to prevent exploitation by a few to become ever more wealthy at the expense of everyone else. I am dubious about any claim that we can hit upon a silver bullet strategy that will guarantee broadly shared wealth. I think EVERY strategy requires ongoing diligence and ethical intent by respective participants. So far at the moment, the Nordic model as case study makes a strong argument just in the contentment and low poverty level of its populations. A big part of the challenge of making it work, however, has to be in the cultural mentality of the people...will they buy into the system in good faith or try to game the system to exploit others? I worry for the U.S., because despite our many abundant natural and people resources, we currently are nursing a grotesquely hostile dog-eat-dog/every-man-for-himself Zeitgeist that threatens the foundation of a civil society. I hope the pendulum swing back away from the current administration is swift and powerful.

@MikeInBatonRouge wealth does equal power. I'm working on a theory regarding that, that's probably been done before, but in simple terms it goes something like this: that there are three fundamental types of power, economic, military, and social. I believe that prior attempts at a more equal Society have failed because they have only addressed one or perhaps two of these at a time, leaving an opening for the neglected elements to seize control. Take the American Revolution for instance. there was a huge swing towards equality of military power, as well as a partial swing towards equality of Social Power, but some social power was thoroughly neglected, and economic power was almost completely disregarded. And our current systemic problems stem almost entirely from economic power, along with the societal issues that go with it. Another example could be the USSR. They fought hard for equality of economic power, but largely neglected military and social equality. This, of course, resulted in authoritarianism. That's why I believe that in our current society, the emphasis should be on equality of economic power first, but without disregarding societal or military equality as well.

@DonThiebaut If I can wrap my brain around three concepts at once I think I like your idea. I just can't see past the complexity to how in reality it would be implemented.

@MikeInBatonRouge I always go back to Orwell's Animal Farm. In the end, the pigs broke the law and walked on two feet like men. Whatever system is devised has to include safeguards to prevent deviation. I thought our system had pretty good safeguards when it came to the equality of the branches of government. I thought we were safe.

@MikeInBatonRouge, @Omots It does have good safeguards, with relation to military power (in my little theory, all government power is 'military', as government social and economic power is still enforced by military/police). But we have so few checks and balances regarding the other two. Cooperatives provide an economic safeguard, in that when one member of the company makes substantially more than the others, they can be voted out, or have their pay put to a vote. Other safeguards, such as a strong social safety net, could help as well. Social power is the trickiest to safeguard intentionally, but it also has the strongest natural safeguard: people stop liking an abuser quickly. Now, of course, my little theory can be useful conceptually, but doesn't really add much of substance, so the actual fixes still need to happen in the real world. ?

@DonThiebaut Military is not a branch of government. I have confidence in the military. They all swore allegiance to the Constitution and were taught not to follow orders contrary to that pledge. By all the comments of opposition from retired military, I do believe we are safe from them. But I would not take it for granted. I was referring to the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of government.

@Omots I was referring to 'military' in reference to my pet theory above, rather than the military. The branches of the U.S. government are essentially a division of 'military' power: the executive being it's application, the legislative being it's directive, and the judicial being it's reaction. Hence, the relative equality of 'military' power within the U.S.

@DonThiebaut What do you mean by economic power?

@Omots YES!! ...which goes back to my earlier comment about the Achilles heel of government, that it ultimately depends on the integrity of participants. Bad apples spoil the whole barrel. Safeguards only go so far. We have to also nourish integrity and caring in people, and that is a long, uphill battle, it seems.

@Omots Control over money. Directly having money, owning property, owning businesses, charging interest, etc. The U.S. has controls for 'military' power, but has largely left economic power wide open. And just like a military power vacuum, the strongest or most opportunistic sweep in to seize the power they can get. Which, of course, leads to massive imbalance, which leads to that economic power being leveraged to buy military power, in the form of the various favors the government bestows on private interests.

@MikeInBatonRouge What do you think? Top of my head safeguard is having a system that allows for a voice to be heard without the support of a lot of money. I can't picture that. Need to get the money out of the political debate. People are working so much now they are unable to nurture morals and ethics like you describe. Religion has failed in its integrity and compassion. The priest molestation stories are horrendous.

@MikeInBatonRouge I believe that the more decentralized the power distribution, the more thorough the safeguard, as well as the more active participants being educated on what to watch out for. So the more democratic the power, the better it's stability. Social power is almost inherently democratic in nature, so it's fairly easy to keep people in check there, unless they use another power to gain an unfair advantage (oil companies running PR campaigns to seem like the good guys after an oil spill, for example). Military (or government/police/whatever you like) power is pretty straightforward in that regard as well: an Aristocracy helped check the power of the King, and a Republic checked it further, and a true democracy would check it further still. In economic matters, democracy in the workplace takes the form of cooperatives, mostly. Of course, no matter how well-divided the system, some imbalance would occur, but I think the lower that imbalance, the easier it is to correct for as a part of normal operations.

@DonThiebaut Military and economics. Is the military power because of the need, or because of the economics? Space Force. Need, or economics?

@DonThiebaut Don. It's not clicking yet. It may not. I wish we knew how to go forward though. The only way is to talk. In the immediate, I am more concerned about safeguarding our Constitution. I really think it is being threatened.

@Omots Well, the key to the theory is that the powers are able to effect each other. So the Space Force is an exercise in the Trump administration using it's current military power to leverage for more social power (pandering to it's followers) and more economic power (kickbacks to the military-industrial-complex).

@DonThiebaut starting from the bottom. Where does the “worthless class” fit in. People who have been replaced by technology and are unable to work.
The next Industrial Age, I believe is the development of a space industrial complex that is a cooperation between nations. Not competition.
I will leave this as it is for now. Nice to meet you Don. Have patience. I am a little slow, but these things touch on a puzzle that is important to me. I have ideas about the direction we should head, but I lack details. I know about the lack of innovation in the Nordic model. I know they have money problems. I do think education is the key to a strong siciety

@Omots These things take time. It's been nice talking to you. I'm sure I'll see you on another thread here eventually. ?

@Omots regarding people being too busy working to nurture morals and ethics, I was not speaking in terms of the personal self-reflection we all ideally should work on ourselves. By "nurturing," I meant people in positions of leadership setting positive examples and encouraging altruism, to counterbalance rampant materialism, etc. Ameri-corps was a good example of efforts to nourish. Initiatives like community policing and police forces helping directly with construction of community centers and other positive community projects could be another example. Seeing high profile politicians roll up their sleeves and help feed the hungry, gather presents for impoverished kids at Xmas, or build homes like Habitat for Humanity would lead by example. Those kinds of efforts set a tone of respect and altruism that helps counteract hopelessness and cynicism. We are not seeing or hearing about that as much these days.

@MikeInBatonRouge "Ask not what your country can do for you..." The Great Society. I have a dream. The New Deal. Nation uniting, not nation dividing. Progressive ideas of Teddy Roosevelt, and so on. For me, Carters stand on Human Rights was his contribution. I signed on, I don't know how much of America really did. We live in such a Tower of Babel. I came across this today about the party of Lincoln under Eisenhower. Immigrants understand America better than a lot of Americans which is why I welcome them. They challenge us to remember who we are.

@Omots I'm conflicted about that quote. On the one hand, I really appreciate the emphasis on community building and social participation. On the other, I'm reminded of another quote, something like, "A society exists to serve it's people". So maybe it should be "Ask both what your country can do for you, and what you can do for your country". A two way street. ?

@DonThiebaut I did not finish the Kennedy quote. It was current for me back The and everyone recited it in class. I am sorry my not finishing caused confusion. Kenedy’s Funeral and that saying is my clearest memory of that time. And the shooting of Oswald on live tv

@Omots I don't mean to belittle the whole speech, or to suggest that you were somehow wrong. I just don't like when people (conservatives) use the short version of the quote to imply that receiving government aid is bad. I've heard that argument a few times, and it seems to fly directly in the face of his intentions.

@Omots You call it a tower of Babel. I agree with the idea. I'd call it many different silos of social media news sources, all engineered to "infotain" us and market to our particular existing perspectives, so that differing sides of issues no longer even understand what sets of facts the other is operating from. We can't even begin to talk to each other; we are in separate universes, it seems.

@DonThiebaut a government of the people, by the people, for the people. Abraham Lincoln

@MikeInBatonRouge, @DonThiebaut everything is sound bites and very short sentences sent back and forth. I have my doubts about educating the masses. Manipulating the masses seems dirty, but that seems like the only tool there really is.

@Omots Jefferson also said the health of democracy vitally depends on the electorate being educated. Without that, they are pawns to be manipulated. Education is a truly never-ending challenge. We will never in the foreseeable future "arrive" at an educated state.

So any time anyone talks about social engineering plans that rely on an assumption of. "Once the people are educated..." I find myself thinking "Don't hold your breath"

I am reminded of my clinic psych department and its never ending challenge to train the registration desk staff to handle a host of patient issues responsibly. Just as we would start to see consistency, that desk staff would get promoted or leave. So training starts all over. That is just like the electorate. The collective attention span and ability to learn from recent history is painfully limited. ?

@MikeInBatonRouge I live in the projects. When I pay rent, the office staff are so supportive of me being in school. They told me that I am the only person that they have seen in the projects that is going to school beyond what is required. How do you educate the people who don’t want to be educated (which seem like the majority). I am the oldest of eight, and I am the only one in my family to pursue a bachelors degree. In Jefferson’s day, education was for the wealthy. “Education is a never ending challenge” has not made much headway, but my perspective is that of a person on the bottom of the pyramid.

@MikeInBatonRouge I learned cynicism is normal as you age. Philosophy class.

@MikeInBatonRouge it is funny. I have a black friend who likes Trump because he has reduced black unemployment by cutting the flow of incoming immigrants who were, in his eyes, taking jobs away from blacks. I was not aware of any difficulty between black and brown until then.

@Omots wow! And, of course, he just pulled those factoids out of Trumps ass, because none of it is true about his supposed job creation. Sarah Huckaby Sanders got caught lying in the press room about that. It was all lies.

@MikeInBatonRouge my black friend cannot use a computer to fact check, or check anything. He is the friend who is a friend no more because he told me to get on my knees and pray. I hope you were referring to my previous post. He is just repeating what someone said to him.

@William77 your point is taken about arms sale, but there is a difference between a country's economic system and its laws/regulation concerning international dealings. That seems like a separate issue to me. Russia, too, sells deadly technology, as does the U.S. doesn't seem to matter which economic system is in place.

We already have socialist programs as part of our society. Corporate welfare, for one. Subsidies for farmers. Talk about socialist ideas and the masses revolt. Talk about changing SSI and Medicare, the masses revolt.

@Omots I hear ya, but that fact is that these programs already exist and are still met with scorn and questioned by many. Some people on these programs question them. Check out the Craig T. Nelson video where he says "when I was on welfare, nobody gave me a handout." The cognitive dissonance is stunning. Also, they are talking about non-white people getting the handout, not them. It's all about packaging the modernization of these programs, which are depression era or from the 1960s. We need to show that we are being left behind by other countries. We are no longer the leader of anything, except defense spending. Pride needs to be injected into all people. We need modern solutions for these problems and fresh faces to implement them. We need true innovation in our approach. Replaying the same message and failing each time because we hope people will understand the issue on a deeper level is insanity. People like sound zingers. Michael Avenatti is right that we need to hit them hard when the GOP goes low. The useless finger pointing and half-assed outrage at the GOP when they go low results in failure and has people laughing at the left. We gotta market everything better.

@dokala Political correctness has a weakness, people don't pay attention.

@dokala, @Omots
I've found that it's virtually impossible for right-wingers to argue against the idea of worker cooperatives. They still sometimes try, but it really never gets anywhere. Cooperatives just play into too many right-wing talking points: small government, working for what you earn, having control over your own life, so on and so forth.

@DonThiebaut What I find in the right-winger is the response of - UnAmerican Blasphemer. Arguing seems pointless.

@Omots it often is, in the direct sense. But often times there are silent observers, people who are interested in hearing your side of the discussion, but aren't actually interested in arguing for or against it themselves. Making a clear and effective argument against a right winger probably won't win them over, but there's a good chance it might win over someone in the middle.

@DonThiebaut Being confused is one of my strong points. Earlier in this feed, dokala reference that the "cognitive dissonance was stunning." He is right. I say look, and point to it so they can touch it and feel it and smell it and I still get that it is only an opinion.

@Omots when dealing with people in denial, you have to remember that it often takes repeated exposure to the truth for their denial to slowly slip away. It has to occur over weeks or months, so as to seem like a natural evolution of their own thought, or they will simply reject it. That's not really something that we can do on an individual basis, but keeping up the good fight can continue to expose them to the truth from multiple angles from multiple individuals. From our perspective, it feels like a total shit sandwich, like we're never getting anywhere. But it's the best we can do.

@DonThiebaut absolutely! Even here on relatively friendly social media, we rarely if ever change someone's made up mind, but I personally post and respond for two reasons: As a mental exercise to work on my own clarity of thought, for myself, and to give food for thought to others looking on.
Okay, so there is also the joy of "impressing" others with my abundance of stupid typos --I like to blame my cell phone's tiny touch screen rather than take responsibility for my piss-poor editing. ?