Well said, my brother.

I’m sitting on my patio tonight, cigar, whiskey, as I’ve done many many nights. It’s hot, humid. The frogs and cicadas are loud. The stars are bright. It’s peaceful, beautiful. Maybe more so than it was when I was a believer. At times, it does feel more lonely than it once did. Beauty in life is what you make it, what you perceive. If you look for it, you can find it, in even the most difficult of times.

Cheers, y’all.

I used to have these awesome "spiritual experiences" where I felt like I was being lifted up to another realm. Those experiences corresponded to the most stressful times in my life. I would cling to them as evidence that I was a valuable person, contrary to what my community was beating into me at every opportunity. I believe now that they were all part of a common human instinctual phenomenon meant to offset dehumanizing treatment. I interacted with many others who also had similar experiences and they were all struggling with a lot of personal trauma from their past and present. After seeing similar characteristics in virtually everyone who was having these types of experiences, I began to question my interpretation of them. That was also after I was no longer in the abusive situation for many years as well and had some time to heal a little.

Lol....in my misspent youth, I constantly heard guys say, "beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

No, because that is like saying that to be sensitive is religious, why stick the label religious on such experiences at all. If you think there is worth in such experiences, why not call them, 'spiritual' and if you don't call them 'Woo', or to be realistic just, 'unexplained subjective experiences'. Sticking the religious label on them is no more justified than sticking the religious label on morality, which religions like to claim is theirs alone.. My random dreams often feature my dead parents, that does not mean that my parents are alive; if subjective aesthetic experiences feature images from dead religions, that does not mean that those religions are the source of them.

What a very good conjecture! I personally agree totally but I suspect I will be in a very prominent minority here!

1. Beauty is not completely subjective. There is subjective variance, but I believe that there is strong genetic and social standards that cannot be completely ignored.

2. Religious feeling, which Freud described as "oceanic" feeling, of course has secular (that is, natural) root, and can certainly be experienced by non-theists for non-theistic reasons.

Not sure how this translates to the need (or the ability) for "sensitivity" to the faithful. The problem of religion isn't individual "feelings." The problem is their collective actions, and the susceptibility for cruelty and oppression that it creates. A faithful might feel "wonderful" as he is stoning a heretic, but it isn't his feelings that I am concerned about. It's his action of throwing that stone believing that is the right thing to do.

Appreciation of Beauty and even Awe of the universe is not a religion, no God is required.

Screw the mystics to me it's appreciating the person for who they are have been with pretty women not worth a flying fuck and not so pretty who are preferable to pretty princess who they are is more important

And you are thinking/talking about this so we too can have "rapture"? No thanks.

Me, I see beauty in most things natural but to tell you the truth I just don't need woo to feel it or to express it.

I think the same might indeed be true. Whatever made humans, it made us to have these experiences, and we will keep having them whether our explanations of them are ancient or modern.

I can get very emotional reading books of fiction and watching movies of fiction. Of course, that doesn't mean that they are true. By the same token, I can read the Bible and appreciate a lot of good things in it. As long as I keep in mind that it is fictitious, that's Okay. But if I ever buy into the scam that it is reality, that's when I'm in trouble, and become putty in the hands of preachers who will continually ask me for money, on the threat of going to Hell. I'm not buying into that scam.

I think that eliminating the theist angle, and experiencing/experimenting with different things might be pretty cool. A argument could be made that going into one of those subjective experiences with a preconceived idea of what it means (seeing God) can color the experience in the wrong shade.

All is reduced to neurotransmitter cocktails elicited by different stimuli. You can’t help enjoying the experience. They key is understanding that nothing is ontologically beautiful but rather a subjective experience (as you said) and the same happens with contemplation

I agree fully. A person’s opinion or belief about church dogma is a minor, insignificant part of that person, while the religious impulse or sensitivity is deeply imbedded.

IMO religious experience is not necessarily some sort of earth-shaking mystical event. I’ve never had that kind of religious experience myself. But I have lived my life with deep awareness and awe in the face of the stark fact of conscious existence. The implications of reality are just absolutely overpowering.

We can never experience the depth of feeling of others...they may express their feelings of deep belief and transportation to another realm, and we can wonder at how much they seem moved by their experience...what we cannot do however, is be transported with them to experience it ourselves. That must come from within us, and if and when we do, we will no longer be skeptics and atheists, we will be true believers. I don’t believe there is really any correlation between our changing perceptions of beauty as we get older, which I do agree with, and our religious experience, or perception of it. Experience and wisdom make us see things in a different, more nuanced way as we get older and we’re generally influenced less by superficial beauty, but can see the value and beauty underneath the veneer. We can appreciate the beauty and awe of the natural world at any age, but perhaps that appreciation too becomes more acute as we age. As for being religiously sensitive...I can’t say I really understand what you mean by that. What I can say is, from a purely personal point of view, I have become more tolerant of others religious views as I’ve got older, and more sensitive to their need to believe in a greater being, one which I have never ever felt I needed.

I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that it's more a feeling the "beholder" has when presented with the beautiful.

Much the same as the feeling one has during an "aha" moment of an epiphany of sorts, or the overwhelming feeling of being "loved" by a deity, a person, or a community.

I remember the feeling I had as a child, believing that there was a god and angels who cared for me and I felt cradled in that love. The feeling was real, and I can remember it vividly, even though my belief in the source has gone.

Similarly, I remember one poignant moment during a relationship, just gazing at the beautiful silhouette of my mate sleeping, feeling overwhelmingly loved and happy, totally at peace with all in the world at that moment. The relationship ended, but I still remember that moment, years ago, bursting with love and feeling loved, even if it wasn't true, as I believed at the time.

I also can't help but feel an absolute bursting of my heart, soul and mind at the beauty of nature. There are particular scenes, sounds and smells, I have been lucky enough to behold, which have made me gasp at the utter beauty.

A sunrise, or a quiet moment with snow falling all around, and myriad other scenarios, can give one a spiritual calmness, the equivalent of a religious experience.

It’s true for me. I carry the beauty of many Biblical ideas around in my head. Sayings like ‘if you could only obey my commandments, your peace would be as a river’ or ‘and now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love'. I understand the context has been removed for me but the underlying words of wisdom still ring true.

im terrible and I know it the older and uglier I get the less willing I am to accept old and ugly and I see how it is just not right but the heart wants what it wants and id rather do without than old and ugly or average
ive tried talking to myself but im not listening to me

I would also like to say that beauty isn't entirely in the eye of the beholder. I heard of experiments where they tracked the line of vision in infants and found that they preferred looking at faces with certain physical features. While there is definitely a subjective aspect to beauty, there is also an objective one.

As an agnostic, they may have seen, detected, experienced, felt an electromagnetic resonance which they interpreted through a theistic lens, but was objectively present. That resonance could have been one aspect of the natural world which indicated an underlying commonality, which could be called 'god' broadly defined.
So while it MAY have been misinterpreted within a religious theology, whether 'Jesus' or 'Buddha,' 'Zeus' or 'Thor' or whatever, the phenomenon itself MAY have been authentic, and depending on the interpreter, beautiful, or awful, enigmatic, wondrous, terrifying or, yes, divine.
The energy in the world is real and can be readily detected, measured, and quantified, but it MAY take extraordinary forms which appear strange, unreal, of supernatural origin. Whether from another realm, dimension, parallel universe (if any of that exists), or our own three-dimensional world, it must sometimes seem beautiful indeed.

Beauty is what you want it to be. In advertising and fashion the idea has always been to makeup 12 year olds as beautiful women but have no concern that you might be providing fuel for a rapist somewhere. Maybe we should change some of these trends.

So this means?? If religious people are honestly deluded, that better than fake deluded?

I think the 2 points have to be unlinked.
If an event/ object is dominated by being associated with religion-it ceases to be
relatable on a HUMAN level. It's defined by
you and religion,there by CHEATING society
out of the true human expierence.
There is little wonder why religion
in the early centuries controlled & dominated
art(music&clothing)$-allure and intice populations.Tribal leaders probably before
them,hey it works.Doesn't mean its right.
More like being with the" winning "team.Yet
it retains the power to currupt both(art &humanity) by selling the POTENTIAL of both
short........thanx