Part of my indoctrination as a believer was that humans have souls and other creatures do not. I have come to realize that there are believers who think they will see their pets in the afterlife.
To those of you who are former believers: Did you believe people would see their pets in the afterlife?
To anyone who believes in souls/spirits despite not necessarily believing in a god, do you think nonhumans have souls/spirits?
Nothing has a soul. Souls are fantasy And, no, I did not expect to see my pets after death. Catholics are taught that only Man has a soul because we're god's favorite playthings for whatever reason.
Wow, that means I will be so busy with all my dead pets. I wonder if all my dogs, cats, budgies will get along? What about my two ex husbands, will I have to put up with them too?
Your answer made my day. If I have to put up with my 1st ex husband in an afterlife, I need to figure out a way to never die.
Wow, Jolanta. You do seem to have a lot of victims. I'm lucky that I live at a distance.
@Lorajay You could always hope that he spends the rest of eternity in "the other place"!
Nope, weren’t you reading... animals don’t have souls
"Soul"? What is this "soul" you speak of? No such thing!
When as a youth and I first encountered the illogic of the, "humans have souls animals don't", from christian teachers. Along with all the other similar BS, they usually pedal about the 'big' difference between humans and animals to justify that, ( funny how its always a 'big' difference, ) such as, animals can not think, feel emotions, or be moral. It was one of the first things that helped me to see through religion and a lot of so called education.
I remember one especially odious christian teacher, who one day told me that it was impossible for animals to think, and that their behaviour was only due to Pavlovian conditioned reflexes. (He did not understand Pavlov properly.) Nor could they understand human language, be self aware or understand things which required language skills and self awareness, such as pointing with the hand. "If you point an animal looks at your hand, not the thing you are pointing at." So I went home, called my dog and pointed at her chair. She jumped in and sat down. Blew my faith in the school and the religion. Wise dog that.
I too have had dogs that were smarter than christians, and some of them weren't particularly intelligent.
That wasn’t thinking on your dogs part, that was just a Pavlovian response... just kidding. As far as I know though dogs are about the only animal that does understand pointing. Experimenters, from what I’ve read, can’t even get chimpanzees to really grasp the meaning. It’s no evidence of a soul of course, I just like dog stories.
Hell Kent Hovand says not only do animals not have souls but they can't feel pain. So he got one thing right afterall. I just would not want to be his dog.
Posted this at the top, but thought you may like it.
When as a youth and I first encountered the illogic of the, "humans have souls animals don't", from christian teachers. Along with all the other similar BS, they usually pedal about the 'big' difference between humans and animals to justify that, ( funny how its always a 'big' difference, ) such as, animals can not think, feel emotions, or be moral. It was one of the first things that helped me to see through religion and a lot of so called education.
I remember one especially odious christian teacher, who one day told me that it was impossible for animals to think, and that their behaviour was only due to Pavlovian conditioned reflexes. (He did not understand Pavlov properly.) Nor could they understand human language, be self aware or understand things which required language skills and self awareness, such as pointing with the hand. "If you point an animal looks at your hand, not the thing you are pointing at." So I went home, called my dog and pointed at her chair. She jumped in and sat down. Blew my faith in the school and the religion. Wise dog that.
@Fernapple Thank you, it appears that dogs have better intelligence often than the religious. Humans are indeed capable of impededing their thinking process. I do not think that dogs are. The more questions I asked the worse the answers got. I was turned off by "somethings we don't know until we are ready for gods intervention to speak to us and teach us" blahh blahh blahh. I was asking simple questions that required simple answers loke how should he be worshiped. If god had an opinion then he would want us to know. I can't believe I actually believed that bull crap.
I read the bible as a kid and was openly an atheist by the time I was nine years old. The inane rambling nonsense being spewed by the Sunday school teachers, preachers and the bible itself was so contradictory and hateful I could never really figure out why other people could believe that shit. I also heard the nonsense about animals not having souls while people did and as a cat person that alone convinced me that Christ-Insanity was nothing but a bunch of bullshit...
Heaven is a fairy tale meant to entice gullible humans into giving money to a cult of human sacrifice.
They will make heaven sound as appealing as they possibly can to get as much money as they can.
If humans have souls that live on after death, it's only logical that other mammals would have souls too.
As a child brainwashed to believe in Moronism (oops, Mormonism), I was told that our dead pets were waiting for us in heaven. Oh, the nonsense!
That's some lair i was also told .
@Victoria100 Oh, yes. Moron leaders are all telling lies in order to collect tithes and offerings. It's a Latter-day Scam.
I believe human beings have energy. First law of thermodynamics: Energy is neither destroyed or created. It is changed from one form to another. If anyone wishes to, they can call that a spirit or soul. As for animals, I wish my kitty would get reborn and find me again, but that's because I believe in the law of conservation of energy. That's my emotions and imagination playing. I could get shunned or castigated having said these things. Hell, bring it on! I'm still an atheist though.
Okay by that definition I will admit I am star stuff. That does not exactly mean spirit or soul.
Conservation of energy can only apply to what can be measured - heat, mass, momentum etc. so no, you can't claim that a soul might be a form of energy.
@Gareth
I do not claim that a soul is a form of energy.
Do you claim that a soul is not a form of energy?
I think that to do either, one must prove a theory.
In the first place, one must decide if souls exist and figure out what they are. Religions claim to know about souls. I am secular, and have never thought I know. The immortality of the soul, imo, is a metaphysical question or speculation, and no one should think they can answer that for others, or to judge their speculation about it. I merely miss my cat and would love to see her again. If I have a soul, then I believe she has one too.
@AnonySchmoose Hi. I don't mean to bludgeon you with science and logic but:
"Energy .....If anyone wishes to, they can call that a spirit or soul"
Sounds like a claim that a soul is a form of energy to me.
To your second question I don't claim anything about a soul because it's not a well-defined concept. It's a nonsense word, like "Jabberwock" and you can't mix science and poetry; you just end up with thought-porridge.
I'm sorry about your cat (I've had my own pets too) but the now the SECOND law of thermodynamics tells us that entropy in a closed system always increases, so your cat is very unlikely to rematerialise unless this universe is only a small part of some larger system, for which there is, as yet, no evidence.
On the plus side, if you get another cat you will likely love it just as much.
@Gareth
Sorry ... did you take the things I speculate upon as things that I claim to know? These things I say are in my imagination, thus I say them to pass the time in conversation.
I used to recite all of Jabberwocky start to finish, because I loved it. I could quickly memorize it again. Yet, I'm unsure how that poem leads to why a mix of science & poetry is like thought porridge. ????? Maybe you will explain that thought.
I believe I understood that entropy in a closed system will always increase or remain constant. And entropy can decrease in a system that is not closed.
I already have three other rescue cats. I inherited them from my family.
They seem to have either more or constant entropy as time goes by.
@AnonySchmoose My apologies, but as a former physics undergrad (I wound up with a different degree) I get triggered when people stir physical terms into their musings as though they can be appropriated any-old-how (vide the fraudster Deepak Chopra). The unit of energy is the joule. If people want to equate energy (colloquial) with energy (physical) then they need to express it as a measurable value in joules and account for the mechanism by which it translates from one form into another (eg heat gain as loss of mass as in nuclear fusion). Otherwise you might as well say "Newton showed that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so if you don't clean your room I'm not cooking you dinner". That's what I meant by thought-porridge.
Enjoy your cats - three out of four isn't doing too bad.
Growing up, I saw my mother's views on this change (I refer to my mom because she was the religious leader in the household. Where she went, dad followed). Initially she believed only humans (who believe in Jesus and the right things about him) go to heaven; but she later started to think that pets would be there too. Now, as far as wild animals--probably not; which is ridiculous--if one animal goes, they all would go.
Side thought: At one point my mom came to think that some people had Jesus in their hearts even if they weren't Christians. This was how she came to terms with good, "god loving," people who weren't Christians. She didn't think they deserved eternal punishment. She initially admired the Muslim practice of praying 5 times a day and would say things like "they do worship the same God after all." After 9-11 this all changed. Muslims were then seen as followers of a "false" god and were all going to hell.
Also, I don't believe in souls or any type of consciousness that survives our deaths. It all comes down to energy that never dies- it just changes form. When we, and our fellow animals, die our energy and atoms are dispersed back into the earth, the universe, making other life possible. We all become a part of many other living, and perhaps even non-living, things.
It's interesting you mention this. I grew up believing the same thing, that animals did not have souls. Funny enough, this belief, was one of the biggest problems I had as a child accepting. I couldn't ever get over the idea that they didnt. I questioned it all the time. I thought, "how can they not have souls? My dogs have a range of emotions from happy, sad, scared etc. They obviously love me. How can something that doesnt have a soul have these emotions?" I, for some reason, equated a soul to the ability to have emotions. Either way, Im glad I did because that could be one of the early embers that sparked my disbelief.
Not a former believer but here’s my experience with it. At about 12 years old a friend was teaching me about his religious beliefs. Pretty standard Christian stuff. At one point we talked about this matter and he did inform me that animals have no souls and therefore wouldn’t be in heaven. 12 year old me thought “ that’s stupid, I’m not gonna believe this crap”.
We put too much importance on what we believe as if that makes it so. Truth is we don't know. So I relax and live in the "I don't know. Maybe." When I relax about all this, I open up to whatever revelations fall into me. I don't care what others believe. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I just take it all in and go on with my daily life. I would like to add that rejecting anything that cannot be proven makes no sense to me. This universe we dwell in, is so vast. How can we ever really know all there is out there. Our science concerning things close and tangible is ever changing. Some of what is taken as fact today will be totally reversed tomorrow. So for those who state that they only accept that which is proven, I say, relax and open up. There's more to our reality than we can ever capture. By this we expand our thinking. It makes us better.
Yet another aspect of the fucked up mess that's called religion
I believed all living creatures had souls and that yes....I would see my pets in the afterlife. I guess it depends on the branch of religion and personal beliefs of the family.
I would equate the antiquated word "soul" for more modern day word "personality' with very little differences. Spirit I would equate with is the "motivator" or motivation for a person and their life activities or goals. Something like saying a person has team spirit. As to what happens after death I could not say forsure. I have not died yet nor have I met anyone that has been dead to know exactly forsure what these things do on death. At best I would say it appears that a person's soul/personality and spirit/motivation dies with them when they die. Other than, something that might of been passed on to others during their life.
And I would think that while living animals can display some sorts of personalities. I notice it in pets a lot.
I was part of a (rare) Christian sect that did not believe in eternal souls, in humans or any other animals. But, no, I did not expect to see my pets risen from the dead.
I found this no more nor less sad than I find it now, that I will never see the dead again.
I'd be curious to learn about this sect. What's it called? I'd like to look it up.
@Colibri NO! Steer clear of them!
Okay, now that I've given you fair warning, of course you should decide for yourself. They are called Christadelphians.
@AmyTheBruce Don't worry, I have no intention of approaching an actual Christadelphian. Whatever Google tells me will do.
@Colibri If things haven't changed drastically in the last twenty years, (that's the last time I checked,) there should actually be a nest of them near you. You could check them out in person!
Don't give them your real name or phone number, though.
There is no such thing as a soul, therefore, no living thing has one. Well, no nonliving thing either.
I do not think humans have souls, but rather I believe the bible saying that you became a living soul. All of us are living souls and we therefore can also become a dead soul. A "soul" is not something you have or possess, or was created or born with. It is not some magic invisible butterfly that instantly flies off to god when your body dies. You are the soul alive or dead. Thanks to Saul of Tarsus and a fear of dying this all got turned around and changed into utter nonsense. When you are dead you are dead.
Now into modern believers claiming they have a soul and animals do not. This must be some statement against evolution because the believers think they are so much higher than the animals. They think they have souls and the animals do not, but spirit animals are all over the bible. In trying to answer your questions we have fear and cherry picking at their best and nobody facing reality.
To go a step farther there are no gods and no heavens or Valhala.
"I believe the [babble]"
How about "dust to dust, ashes to ashes"????? Makes Far more sense!
@AnneWimsey I agree. Let me re-phrase saying "I believe the bible" when I say you became a living soul. Throw the bible away and you remain a living soul until such time as you die. Soul means "being." It has nothing to do with woo or other nonsense. It is not something you have or possess.
imo believers are indoctrinated into the belief of "having" a soul pretty early, but the Bible does not bear that out fwiw, and Adam became a living soul. Also "afterlife" can't be found, although it can be inferred? But a lot of other Bible has to be ignored in the process, There is only One Immortal, No one has ever gone up to heaven, etc. "Soul" and "life" are the same root in the Bible, interchangeable
I think all creatures have energy and I sometimes feel that energy from my pets that have passed. I also have felt the energy of a couple of deceased humans as well. Those who say that only humans have souls probably believe that to justify their treatment of animals, which they consider possessions. That's my two cents.
In my early life where 'heaven' as a thing (I grew up southern baptist in rural Louisiana - evangelicals everywhere). It always seemed to me that heaven was whatever someone wanted it to be. "Hunting deer in heaven. " etc. Molding the afterlife to what they thought it should be - and that included pets, relatives, and whatever activities were important to the dearly departed.
I don't believe there is a soul nor an afterlife. But our pets are kin in nature to us - the attachment and bonds that they form, they each have unique personalities, and on occasion act with altruism. (My ex's dog once woke me up in the middle of the night - I noticed ex was not in the bed - thought her dog needed to go out. Nope. The dog led me downstairs and went and sat down by the door of the one main level bedrooms. Dog speak for "help" - my ex was sick in that room.)